The Biblical Basis for Penal Substitution, part 2

[JonC]

Well actually, it does say that the blood makes atonement for one's life. What it doesn't say is that the altar makes atonement for one's life. It appears from v.7 that the Israelites had been making sacrifices that were not specifically to the LORD but, apparently, to false gods and demons. Therefore God commanded them to bring their sacrifice to the door of the Tabernacle and for the priests to offer the blood upon the altar.
However, when David was bringing the Ark up to Jerusalem, it seems that every six paces that he travelled, he sacrificed oxen and sheep (2 Sam. 6:13), yet the Tabernacle was in the city (v.17).

Yes, in that case (because that was where you brought us).

But it is this way in every case. In atoning for the altar (cleansing) the blood is applied. The door of meeting? It is the blood applied. Same with covenants. It is not the shedding of blood but the sprinkling.

But you are right - these are not directly speaking of atoning for sins.

So let's look at the Day of Atonement.

“He shall then slaughter the goat for the sin offering for the people and take its blood behind the curtain and do with it as he did with the bull’s blood: He shall sprinkle it on the atonement cover and in front of it. 16 In this way he will make atonement for the Most Holy Place because of the uncleanness and rebellion of the Israelites, whatever their sins have been. He is to do the same for the tent of meeting, which is among them in the midst of their uncleanness. 17 No one is to be in the tent of meeting from the time Aaron goes in to make atonement in the Most Holy Place until he comes out, having made atonement for himself, his household and the whole community of Israel.:

Lets look at the Passover as well.

Did death pass over the families when God noticed they had shed the blood of a lamb?

Nope. It was their application of the blood.


Taking life (removing life from the animal) is mot, as PSA theorists assume, the atonement according to Scriptute.

It was always the application of the blood (the application of this life) that was viewed as making atonement.

Yes, without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

But you are wrong to stop there.

 

[JonC]

@Martin Marprelate

The main problem is not your misunderstanding of the Old Testament. The main problem is your reading of your theory into the New Covenant as well.

Hebrews 9

But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,so that we may serve the living God!


You have been decieved into believing what is false. Remove the lenses of your leaders and read what God has actually said.


Athough we argue strongly against each other - you for your sect teaches and me for the what is written in God's Word, I have not stopped remembering you in my prayers. I ask that the God may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you. I pray one day you will lean not on your own understanding but on His words and that this will bring you to know "the faith once delivered".

 

[JonC]

Again, on what basis did God have His stored up wrath towards us while were yet sinners go, did it just disappear, did God forget He had done that?

The wicked were storing up wrath for themselves for the Day of Wrath.

You rewrote the verse in the image of your understanding.

You do not need to ask me when God has given you the answer -

The actual passage is in Romans 2:

But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.


What is the basis those people are storing up wrath for themselves?

It is because of of their stubbornness and your unrepentant heart.

But to those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Christ Himself is the Propitiation for our sins. There is no wrath for true Christians (God's wrath has been propitiated, not exercized or "poured out".


And I apologize to you. I thought I had you on ignore because you lack understanding of simple language (wrath, anger, love, kindness, joy, happiness, etc. are not things that are literally stored).


Per Scripture those stubborn people who refuse to repent and remain in their wickedness are doing so awaiting the condemnation that will come "on the day of wrath".


Anyway, I realize you do not comprehend and I have not the time nor inclination to teach figures of speech. Let's leave it at wrath, love, etc cannot be stored as these are not things; wrath, kindness, joy, etc. does not "go" anywhere; there are not four corners of the Earth (the Earth is not a rectangle or square); God does not literally use the Earth as a footstool.

Again, sorry that I accidentally took you off ignore. Only stupid people think there are no stupid questions. We only say that there are none so a legitimate one does not go unanswered.

 

[JonC]

Well actually, it does say that the blood makes atonement for one's life.

Yes.

He is to dip his finger into the blood and sprinkle some of it seven times before the Lord, in front of the curtain of the sanctuary.
The priest shall then put some of the blood on the horns of the altar of fragrant incense that is before the Lord in the tent of meeting. The rest of the bull’s blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar of burnt offering at the entrance to the tent of meeting.

And atoning for sin - the people (here the elders) kill the animal. Then the anointed priest is to take some of the bull’s blood into the tent of meeting. He shall dip his finger into the blood and sprinkle it before the Lord seven times in front of the curtain. 18 He is to put some of the blood on the horns of the altar that is before the Lord in the tent of meeting. The rest of the blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar of burnt offering at the entrance to the tent of meeting.

It is never the shedding of blood, although certainly required, that is the atonement in the OT. It is always the blood. And this blood is not an appeasement but a vleansing.


My point is PSA mishandles the OT sacrifices in order to cover the theories mishandling of New Covenant atonement.

 

[JonC]

Look....here is my point. It is VERY simple. AND you do not need to take my word for it. You can read it in your Bible.

In the Bible offering the sacrifice is different from making atonement.

A sacrifice is for atonement. Atonement is when the blood of the sacrifice is applied.

How does the priest make atonement? The elders kill a male lamb. The priest sprinkles the blood at the entrance and the on the altar. The remaining blood is poured around the altar.

This foreshadows the New Covenant atonement. Christ's blood cleanses from all unrighteousness.


Look at the passover in Exodus.

The Isralites sacrificed a lamb. Did this sacrifice keep them from death? No. They applied the blood.

When the Lord goes through the land to strike down the Egyptians, he will see the blood on the top and sides of the doorframe and will pass over that doorway, and he will not permit the destroyer to enter your houses and strike you down.