The Birth and Nature of Christ

[Matt Black]

If there's no DNA of human origin, it amounts to the same thing. You try again!

 

[cowboymatt]

All you are doing here is redefining sin. People do not sin because they have free will, people sin because of their sin nature.

Paul said in Romans 7:19-20:

Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Romans 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Does that sound like free will to you?

I'm not redefining sin, I am looking at the biblical witness as a whole. If sin is not a free and conscious decision on our part, then God is not just in judging anyone. It would not be good or just of God to stack the deck against us. Paul is simply stating in these passages that having a strong will and self-control are not enough, because we all have a propensity to sin. James 1:13-15 will be instructive on this point: "13When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death." James is saying that sin is our fault and not God's. However, if I agree with you that I am forced to sin by my flesh, then it is not my fault that I sin. Paul also talks about being a slave to sin in Rom 7, but it is us who sell ourselves into the slavery of sin whenever we consciously decide to go down that path.

 

[cowboymatt]

Wrong! Matt Black.

Docetism has Jesus in no body at all and denies the crucifixion.

Try again.

Just because you don't understand how God can place in Mary's womb the body He prepared for His Son (as the Word says it happened), does not make it fiction.

Saying that God made a body for Jesus, slapped Jesus in it, and then slapped Jesus and the body into Mary is very much akin to Apollinarianism, the "God in a bod" heresy. Apollinarius, a Laodicean bishop who lived in the fourth century, believed that the Logos inhabited a body that did not have a human rational soul. The connection is that you are saying that the Logos was put into a body and then place into Mary, which sounds quite similar to the Logos being put into a body as Apollonarius said. Apollinarius was called a heretic by the church and his teachings have been universally condemned. Jesus was fully human (human just like all of us) and fully God, not fully human (but of a different sort) and fully God!

 

[standingfirminChrist]

If there's no DNA of human origin, it amounts to the same thing. You try again!

No it doesn't.

Here is what docetism is:

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This Do·ce·tism

(dō-sē'tĭz'əm, dō'sə-tĭz'əm) Pronunciation Key
n. An opinion especially associated with the Gnostics that Jesus had no human body and only appeared to have died on the cross.

Our belief is Christ came in human flesh, but not in sinful flesh.

Our belief is Christ died on the cross and rose again the third day.

Nothing even close to docetism.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

From CARM on Apollinarianism:
Apollinarianism was the heresy taught by Apollinaris the Younger, bishop of Laodicea in Syria about 361. He taught that the Logos of God, which became the divine nature of Christ, took the place of the rational human soul of Jesus and that the body of Christ was a glorified form of human nature.

Nope, not even close again. took the place of the soul of Jesus?

You really are stretching to accuse me of heresy just because you cannot refute my belief with the Word of God.

 

[cowboymatt]

From CARM on Apollinarianism:
Apollinarianism was the heresy taught by Apollinaris the Younger, bishop of Laodicea in Syria about 361. He taught that the Logos of God, which became the divine nature of Christ, took the place of the rational human soul of Jesus and that the body of Christ was a glorified form of human nature.

Nope, not even close again. took the place of the soul of Jesus?

You really are stretching to accuse me of heresy just because you cannot refute my belief with the Word of God.

I never accused you of heresy, I just said that the idea of Jesus being put in a body and then into Mary is close to Apollinarianism.

And you misread the quote your provided: the Logos replaced the rational human soul of Jesus, that is, the Logos was put into the humanity of Jesus and took the place where the soul usually resides. All I was trying to say was that your claim that the Logos was put in a body and then into Mary sounds similar to what Apollinarius said.

The idea of Mary's egg and the Holy Spirit's seed combining to create Jesus prevents this "God in a bod" idea altogether. From the very beginning Jesus would be truly God and truly human, as opposed to the divinity of Jesus existing inside of his body (which is how you seem to understand "prepared a body for him").

 

[Matt Black]

No it doesn't.

Here is what docetism is:

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This Do·ce·tism

(dō-sē'tĭz'əm, dō'sə-tĭz'əm) Pronunciation Key
n. An opinion especially associated with the Gnostics that Jesus had no human body and only appeared to have died on the cross.

Our belief is Christ came in human flesh, but not in sinful flesh.

Your belief is that Christ came in flesh other than our own. That makes Him less than human, which is docetism.

If you want Christians to stop accusing you of heresy, then the solution's really very simple: quit spouting it.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

NO, our belief is not docetism. You apparently do not know docetism.

Go back and study the definition Matt. And stop the unfounded accusations.

You can't refute the message using the Word of God, so you attack the messenger.

How sad.

 

[Matt Black]

"If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck..."

 

[cowboymatt]

sfiC, you attacked me flat out earlier, so don't be a pot calling the kettle black.

I never said that you were a heretic, just that something you wrote reminded me about of Apollinarius. I never said that you were a heretic or that you espoused heresy, just that I thought it sounded similar.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

where did i attack you, post # please?

If you are referring to this statement I made:

we have already posted the Scripture and you denied it. won't do not good to post them again. The Holy Spirit will have to deal with you on that.

it is not an attack. I said the Holy Spirit would have to deal with you. That is not an attack.

 

[cowboymatt]

It is too, and plainly so. You assume that the Holy Spirit hasn't "dealt with" me, which is patently untrue. I live a Spirit-filled life and exercise my spiritual gifts often. But why should I defend myself to you? If you want to simply attack my character instead of engaging my arguments, then fine. It reflects not on me.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

The Holy Spirit deals with people on a daily basis. It is not a one time BAM! your completely sanctified deal.

It was not an attack.

 

[Matt Black]

At the very least, though, SFIC, an arrogant superiority was implied by your post.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

nothing arrogant about it at all.

 

[Eliyahu]

One of the great problems in many Forums on the internet is that one can hardly question the salvation of the participants in a nice and kindly way. The participants must have been saved by being born again first. Otherwise the unsaved persons cannot fathom how God did the wonderful work. It is like a dialogue between dead men and living men.

To some extent it is understandable but the tragedy still remains.

John 1:
14 And the Word became Flesh and dwelt among us:


Word became Flesh

then

He dwelt among us.

( dwelt in the womb of Mary first, thereafter came out of her and dwelt among the people)

Can the God Almighty Jesus Christ who created the Universe by Word, not enflesh Himself by Word? Did He need the sinful body of a woman?

Surrogacy doesn't deny the genealogy, still fulfills the prophecy .

 

[cowboymatt]

One of the great problems in many Forums on the internet is that one can hardly question the salvation of the participants in a nice and kindly way. The participants must have been saved by being born again first. Otherwise the unsaved persons cannot fathom how God did the wonderful work. It is like a dialogue between dead men and living men.

To some extent it is understandable but the tragedy still remains.
<snip>

Who do you have in mind?

Are you suggesting that only people who agree with you are saved?

If so, then wow, just wow.

 

[Brother Bob]

One of the great problems in many Forums on the internet is that one can hardly question the salvation of the participants in a nice and kindly way. The participants must have been saved by being born again first. Otherwise the unsaved persons cannot fathom how God did the wonderful work. It is like a dialogue between dead men and living men.

To some extent it is understandable but the tragedy still remains.

John 1:
14 And the Word became Flesh and dwelt among us:


Word became Flesh

then

He dwelt among us.

( dwelt in the womb of Mary first, thereafter came out of her and dwelt among the people)

Can the God Almighty Jesus Christ who created the Universe by Word, not enflesh Himself by Word? Did He need the sinful body of a woman?

Surrogacy doesn't deny the genealogy, still fulfills the prophecy .

Yea, wow wow myself.

How old are you Eliyahu? Just wondering.

BBob,

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: If the sperm of Joseph was used then obviously it would not be a virgin birth, but a denial of the virgin birth. That is heresy. You won’t get a retraction from me. The Bible says quite plainly that Christ was born of a virgin, and that virgin was Mary. Hence, no sperm of a man was used. Elementary sir, elementary.

HP: Why would the Holy Spirit implanting human sperm in Mary or the DNA of human sperm, deny the virgin birth?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

It may or may not deny the virgin birth, but it certainly would deny the deity of Jesus Christ.