The Birth and Nature of Christ

[Brother Bob]

My Bible tells the story of how He became sin when He hung on that cross. You are advocating Him becoming sin upon entering the world. For nothing born of a woman is clean.

You didn't do it, God did and with God all things are possible. You are foolish trying to compare this birth with the birth of mankind.

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

Your wise statement doesn't make sense either, Brother.

He was born of Heaven, while the others were born from the earth.

1 Cor 15
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.


There is one more statement in John too. Search for it!

You been saying he took a body of flesh, liken unto us but without sin all along, now you are saying He had a heavenly body. Which is it??

As we have borne the image of the earthly, we shall also bear the image of the Heavenly.

Do you think when we get our Heavenly bodies, we still are subject to death. He was 100 percent God, and 100 percent man.

He was the Lord from Heaven, made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death. If He had a heavenly body, they could not of killed Him. Do you think man can kill a heavenly body??
If you believe that, then those in the resurrection with heavenly bodies better not get around the devil and his followers. You make no sense at all.

I still say, you speak foolishly.

BBob,

 

[cowboymatt]

Yes, there are billions of " So-called christians" in the world today.
I started to question this music as a Rave music video:

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=79333535

Even the music on the Happy Halloween is doubtful too.

I believe the Truly Born Agan believers must know Halloween is absolutely Pagan, No doubt about it.

As for your posts, I knew that it was not worthwhile for me to comment. sorry about that.

You make me sick. Now you are telling me that you are judging my wife?

Who made you judge over me. I thought God was my judge, not you. Never again post in response to anything I have to say. You are a complete classless jerk, believer or not.


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Are there moderators here? Why are these personal attacks, not only on me but now on my wife, being tolerated? I thought that this was a Christian board where I could come and post about the Bible without getting attacked, having my salvation called into question by someone who doesn't know me, or subjecting my wife to uncalled for scrutiny. Please reign Eliyahu in, if not for my sake then for everyone else's.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

You didn't do it, God did and with God all things are possible. You are foolish trying to compare this birth with the birth of mankind.

BBob,

It is not I who is comparing Christ's birth with mankind. You, DHK and others are trying to explain a supernatural conception by making it a natural one.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

You make me sick. Now you are telling me that you are judging my wife?

Who made you judge over me. I thought God was my judge, not you. Never again post in response to anything I have to say. You are a complete classless jerk, believer or not.


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Are there moderators here? Why are these personal attacks, not only on me but now on my wife, being tolerated? I thought that this was a Christian board where I could come and post about the Bible without getting attacked, having my salvation called into question by someone who doesn't know me, or subjecting my wife to uncalled for scrutiny. Please reign Eliyahu in, if not for my sake then for everyone else's.

Where is the attack on your wife, cowboymatt? I do not even see your wife mentioned here.

 

[Brother Bob]

It is not I who is comparing Christ's birth with mankind. You, DHK and others are trying to explain a supernatural conception by making it a natural one.

I think you are playing God myself. He is the seed of David, means what it says. I think you are over your head into something you do not understand at all. You are coming up with solutions where it would be just a God man and not a man of flesh, without sin.

BBob,

 

[EdSutton]

.

HP: I am about to conclude that we would not see this thread progress to 30 pages before the Lord returns if everyone on here so far would be limited to a discussion of the actual questions posed in the OP. :laugh:

This is probably true. We have seen about 90 pages of the same old, same old posted in the last ten days. The Scripture seems clear to me, at least. And it does not entail some of the gymnastics I've seen all across the board. The Lord Jesus Christ is 100% God; the Lord Jesus Christ is 100% man. He is the God-man, if you will. He was born of Mary, her son, (not her surrogate son, as some have implied, but her own flesh and blood) and as such, he is called "the Son of man". He is also called "the Son of God". He is referred to as "the seed of the woman" (FTR, the serpent - i.e. Satan, also has 'seed', according to Gen. 3:15); He is referred to as "the seed of David". The seed cannot be that of the man, in the sense that Jesus was born of a virgin, who conceived by the agency of the Holy Spirit. (Lk. 1:26-55; 2:21; Mt. 1:18-21) BTW, Gabriel said to Mary that she would bring forth a son, and that this son would also be called the Son of God.

There is an assumption being made here by several posters, that if Mary's DNA (or 'egg') were involved, then Jesus would possess the sin nature. Why is this assumed? How about the idea that the sin nature is passed through the male?

It is a derail to this thread, but a related question is "Did Adam originally 'have a sin nature'?" Or did he receive a 'sin nature' after he partook of the fruit?

A sin nature would not seem to be necessary for one to be able to sin, as I read Scripture. Could Jesus have sinned? He was surely tempted, and in all points, yet was without sin. I know of no Scripture that says He could not possibly have sinned; I also know a lot of theological 'arguments' that it was impossible for him to have sinned. He said "I have overcome the world." He did not say, to my knowledge, that "I could not have sinned."

But I had mostly stayed out of this, simply because most of the posters already appeared to have their minds made up, and were not listening or considering to any other point of view. Why invest the time, if one's viewpoint is not going to be even listened to? BTW, this is also why I am not now posting as much as once did. I can read what is said by all, and still manage to keep my own blood pressure down a bit, this way. However, I am taking this opportunity to move this thread one post closer to page 30.

Ed

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I think you are playing God myself. He is the seed of David, means what it says. I think you are over your head into something you do not understand at all. You are coming up with solutions where it would be just a God man and not a man of flesh, without sin.

BBob,

Scripture declares Jesus had no mother or father (Hebrews 7). Notice the little 'f' in father? Joseph's seed was not used; Mary's egg was not used. Else one or the other... or both, would be His biological parent.

Neither contributed to the biological parenthood of Jesus Christ.

 

[Eliyahu]

You make me sick. Now you are telling me that you are judging my wife?

Who made you judge over me. I thought God was my judge, not you. Never again post in response to anything I have to say. You are a complete classless jerk, believer or not.


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Are there moderators here? Why are these personal attacks, not only on me but now on my wife, being tolerated? I thought that this was a Christian board where I could come and post about the Bible without getting attacked, having my salvation called into question by someone who doesn't know me, or subjecting my wife to uncalled for scrutiny. Please reign Eliyahu in, if not for my sake then for everyone else's.

If you are convinced about your Salvation, you don't have to worry about the comments so much as that is entirely a matter between you and God Himself. If anyone doubt about my salvation, I just laugh, that's it because I am so much convinced about it and if needed, I just explain my testimony of Salvation and how my life was changed and what God did for me in the meantime.

I did not and do not know it was your wife's music or not, but it was on your home page and the music was very much un-Christian like. I have never seen any Truly born again Christian promoting Halloween and Rave Music.
It is really strange to hear that I was attacking you and your wife though I never mentioned your wife. But this leads me to doubt about your personality again.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: If the human sperm of Joseph were used (in any way) then Mary would not be a virgin. End of story. When a man's sperm fertilzes a woman's egg the woman is not a virgin. These truths are self-evident. The process doesn't matter………..

You admit she conceived. That means an egg was fertilized. Even if it was by the Holy Spirit miraculously--an egg was fertilized. As you said "she conceived." You cannot get around it.

HP: You have presented no end to the story. Your ideas raise far more questions than you believe they answer.

You seem to hold firmly that Mary’s egg was used. You also hold firmly to the biblical notion that the Holy Spirit did the conceiving. What you have not did is show us one scintilla of evidence that the Holy Spirit did not use sperm to fertilize the egg nor why the Holy Spirit could not have used the egg. If the Holy Spirit had a direct word for this board I believe I would know of one possible message the Spirit would have for us today. I believe it would go something like this. “I am God and can fertilize the egg of Mary in any way I see fit. No man has the right to tell Me what I can and cannot use, sperm or no sperm. Who do you think you are telling God what He can and cannot do or use to impregnate the virgin Mary? By the way, I can do it any way I so desire and Mary will still be a virgin when I am finished, egg or no egg, sperm or no sperm.”

The idea you seem bent on that if sperm is used it must in fact declare the loss of Mary’s virginity so limits an Infinite God that it is plainly not a viable argument in the least.

 

[donnA]

Originally Posted by DHK
The Bible said that Mary conceived. You don't believe that, for if you did you would believe that Mary's egg would have been used as the word conception means.
Secondly the sin nature comes through the male (Romans 5:12,19).
There is no way that Jesus born of a virgin, conceived of the Holy Spirit would have inherited a sin nature. He would have been born with flesh--the same as we have.

DHK,,, how many times do I have to ask you to provide links to reputable well known theologians who also believe that sin is only passed through the male, and not ever through female. I haven't seen it posted yet, if so, please give the post number so I can read it.

 

[EdSutton]

Angels do not have the flesh and blood, but the sinless person like Abel could be killed.

If a sinless person were threatened to be killed, God would have protected Him for His justice and truth. However, God didn't do it for Jesus, because He wanted Him to pay the price for our human beings.

Where does Scripture ever say Abel (or anyone else, save the Lord Jesus Christ) was "sinless"???

The Lord Jesus Christ, alone excepted,

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (Rom. 3:23 - NKJV)

Ed

 

[standingfirminChrist]

If you are convinced about your Salvation, you don't have to worry about the comments so much as that is entirely a matter between you and God Himself. If anyone doubt about my salvation, I just laugh, that's it because I am so much convinced about it and if needed, I just explain my testimony of Salvation and how my life was changed and what God did for me in the meantime.

I did not and do not know it was your wife's music or not, but it was on your home page and the music was very much un-Christian like. I have never seen any Truly born again Christian promoting Halloween and Rave Music.
It is really strange to hear that I was attacking you and your wife though I never mentioned your wife. But this leads me to doubt about your personality again.

You are correct, Eliyahu. The link was originally to a different page. Now, it is to his wife's page. He changed it to his wife's page. I had clicked that link and it did not go to the page it is now at.

 

[EdSutton]

DHK,,, how many times do I have to ask you to provide links to reputable well known theologians who also believe that sin is only passed through the male, and not ever through female. I haven't seen it posted yet, if so, please give the post number so I can read it.

Is this a two-way street? Just wonderin'.

Ed

 

[donnA]

Are there moderators here? Why are these personal attacks, not only on me but now on my wife, being tolerated? I thought that this was a Christian board where I could come and post about the Bible without getting attacked, having my salvation called into question by someone who doesn't know me, or subjecting my wife to uncalled for scrutiny. Please reign Eliyahu in, if not for my sake then for everyone else's.

The moderator is busy launching personal attacks.

If your wife is not a member here is is not against rules to attack her, non members are constantly attacked here, read political threads, or famous people threads, especially if they have died, or famous christians, they are constantly attacked and their salvation called into question. Since it's not against the rules to attack or question the salvation of non members theres nothing a moderator can or should do about it.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ed Sutton: The Lord Jesus Christ is 100% God; the Lord Jesus Christ is 100% man. He is the God-man, if you will.

HP: I agree.

ES: He was born of Mary, her son, (not her surrogate son, as some have implied, but her own flesh and blood) and as such, he is called "the Son of man". He is also called "the Son of God". He is referred to as "the seed of the woman" (FTR, the serpent - i.e. Satan, also has 'seed', according to Gen. 3:15);

HP: Yes in a sense all born subsequent to Adam are of the seed of women, but the genealogies given are not that of Mary but rather are stated clearly to be that of Joseph.

ES: He is referred to as "the seed of David". The seed cannot be that of the man, in the sense that Jesus was born of a virgin, who conceived by the agency of the Holy Spirit. (Lk. 1:26-55; 2:21; Mt. 1:18-21) BTW, Gabriel said to Mary that she would bring forth a son, and that this son would also be called the Son of God.

HP: If Gabriel had said that any one would be brought forth by a man that indeed would be reason to question the angel. There is absolutely no indication that the seed of Abraham, through David through Joseph was not precisely the lineage Christ’s seed came from. There is not one Scriptural mention of the lineage of David being that of Mary or that Mary’s lineage would in any way make Christ the rightful heir to David’s throne that I can find.

ES: There is an assumption being made here by several posters, that if Mary's DNA (or 'egg') were involved, then Jesus would possess the sin nature. Why is this assumed? How about the idea that the sin nature is passed through the male?

HP: Then you need to show us your evidence that the sin nature is passed down through the male.

ES: A sin nature would not seem to be necessary for one to be able to sin, as I read Scripture. Could Jesus have sinned? He was surely tempted, and in all points, yet was without sin. I know of no Scripture that says He could not possibly have sinned; I also know a lot of theological 'arguments' that it was impossible for him to have sinned. He said "I have overcome the world." He did not say, to my knowledge, that "I could not have sinned."

HP: I could not agree with you more. :thumbs: That is an insightful comment you make. Thanks for sharing your insight.

 

[donnA]

Lets see, the sin nature is passed through the male only yet Joseph's sperm is suposedly used to fertilize Mary's egg?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

The moderator is busy launching personal attacks.

If your wife is not a member here is is not against rules to attack her, non members are constantly attacked here, read political threads, or famous people threads, especially if they have died, or famous christians, they are constantly attacked and their salvation called into question. Since it's not against the rules to attack or question the salvation of non members theres nothing a moderator can or should do about it.

Valid point, DonnA. Since she has not posted here as of yet, nor is listed as a member, Eliyahu did not break the BB rules.

Ever think about pursuing a career in law? LOL

 

[donnA]

Is this a two-way street? Just wonderin'.

Ed

It was already posted on the other thread by sfic.

 

[EdSutton]

Scripture declares Jesus had no mother or father (Hebrews 7).

With all respect, Hebrews 7, at least, does not say this! What it does say is that Melchizedek,the King of Salem and priest of 'EL Elyon' (the Most High God) was 'without father or mother'.

Ed