The Birth and Nature of Christ

[standingfirminChrist]

Lets see, the sin nature is passed through the male only yet Joseph's sperm is suposedly used to fertilize Mary's egg?

the use of Joseph's sperm cell takes away the sinlessness of Christ if it was used.

the use of Mary's ova takes away the sinlessness of Christ if it was used as well.

Woman disobeyed first according to Genesis 3. The woman was representing Adam.

Sin is the transgression of the law. Eve transgressed the law. she brought the sin into the world.

 

[EdSutton]

Lets see, the sin nature is passed through the male only yet Joseph's sperm is suposedly used to fertilize Mary's egg?

Ed did not say this, nor does he in any way believe Joseph's sperm was used in any way, FTR.

Ed

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

ES: With all respect, Hebrews 7, at least, does not say this! What it does say is that Melchizedek,the King of Salem and priest of 'EL Elyon' (the Most High God) was 'without father or mother'.

HP: Excellent point, :thumbs: and in common parlance that could be said of others in this world as well. There is absolutely no evidence that Melchizedek was Christ either.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Hebrews 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

Why was he like the Son of God?

because he had no mother or father
no descent... there goes the silly notion of Christ being the result of the egg or sperm of humankind.
no end of life. He died, but lives still. no end of life

 

[donnA]

Ed did not say this, nor does he in any way believe Joseph's sperm was used in any way, FTR.

Ed

I never said you did.

 

[Brother Bob]

This is probably true. We have seen about 90 pages of the same old, same old posted in the last ten days. The Scripture seems clear to me, at least. And it does not entail some of the gymnastics I've seen all across the board. The Lord Jesus Christ is 100% God; the Lord Jesus Christ is 100% man. He is the God-man, if you will. He was born of Mary, her son, (not her surrogate son, as some have implied, but her own flesh and blood) and as such, he is called "the Son of man". He is also called "the Son of God". He is referred to as "the seed of the woman" (FTR, the serpent - i.e. Satan, also has 'seed', according to Gen. 3:15); He is referred to as "the seed of David". The seed cannot be that of the man, in the sense that Jesus was born of a virgin, who conceived by the agency of the Holy Spirit. (Lk. 1:26-55; 2:21; Mt. 1:18-21) BTW, Gabriel said to Mary that she would bring forth a son, and that this son would also be called the Son of God.

There is an assumption being made here by several posters, that if Mary's DNA (or 'egg') were involved, then Jesus would possess the sin nature. Why is this assumed? How about the idea that the sin nature is passed through the male?

It is a derail to this thread, but a related question is "Did Adam originally 'have a sin nature'?" Or did he receive a 'sin nature' after he partook of the fruit?

A sin nature would not seem to be necessary for one to be able to sin, as I read Scripture. Could Jesus have sinned? He was surely tempted, and in all points, yet was without sin. I know of no Scripture that says He could not possibly have sinned; I also know a lot of theological 'arguments' that it was impossible for him to have sinned. He said "I have overcome the world." He did not say, to my knowledge, that "I could not have sinned."

But I had mostly stayed out of this, simply because most of the posters already appeared to have their minds made up, and were not listening or considering to any other point of view. Why invest the time, if one's viewpoint is not going to be even listened to? BTW, this is also why I am not now posting as much as once did. I can read what is said by all, and still manage to keep my own blood pressure down a bit, this way. However, I am taking this opportunity to move this thread one post closer to page 30.

Ed

Ed, I pretty well agree with your post. I am not so sure about the sin nature being passed through the male, but over all I agree.

Adam did sin, without a sin nature. So the sin nature thing just does not hold water, for God is able to cleanse anything He wants and do what He wants. I keep thinking "who hath known the mind of the Lord"?

BBob,

 

[EdSutton]

It was already posted on the other thread by sfic.

You obviously missed my point, unfortunately. What gives any particular Scriptural credence to one who believes the Old Nature passes through the female?
'Theological' credence, maybe. Scriptural credence? Not that I see.

Ed

 

[donnA]

ah, page 29, almost time to lock the doors on this thread, wonder whose turn it is to start the next one.
And will they have anything new to say, or will we continue in circles,,,
the world may never know.... stay tuned for further drama.

 

[EdSutton]

I never said you did.

I just wanted everyone to know where I stand, on this idea.

Ed

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Donna, even your answers sound like a few lawyers I know.:laugh:

 

[Brother Bob]

Hebrews 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

Why was he like the Son of God?

because he had no mother or father
no descent... there goes the silly notion of Christ being the result of the egg or sperm of humankind.
no end of life. He died, but lives still. no end of life

You are speaking of the 100 percent God of Him now. If God had not raised Him from the dead, The 100 percent man, would of corrupted and returned to the dust. IMO

1Cr 15:15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

BBob

 

[Eliyahu]

Brother Bob,

You are rough here again.

You been saying he took a body of flesh, liken unto us but without sin all along, now you are saying He had a heavenly body. Which is it??

So, you do not believe 1 Cor 15?

As we have borne the image of the earthly, we shall also bear the image of the Heavenly.

Not now, after the resurrection.

Do you think when we get our Heavenly bodies, we still are subject to death. He was 100 percent God, and 100 percent man.

NOt necessarily to be same in that aspect. We will not suffer the death any more because we already suffered it.

He was the Lord from Heaven, made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death. If He had a heavenly body, they could not of killed Him. Do you think man can kill a heavenly body??

Yes, before the resurrection.

If you believe that, then those in the resurrection with heavenly bodies better not get around the devil and his followers. You make no sense at all.
I still say, you speak foolishly.

BBob,

I didn't say you spoke foolishly, but you are not wise, because you cannot defend yourself reasonably.

You don't believe 1 Cor 15:47 and John 8:23 because of your theology.

Jesus was from Heaven, even during His life on this earth, He was in Heaven ( John 3:13).

The Death came by sins.

If there was no sin, there would have been no death.

You are greatly mistaken here.

If Adam had not sinned, he wouldnot have died and the sin wouldn't have entered the world.

Jas 1:15 - Show Context
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Ro 5:12 - Show Context
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Death is the Result of the Sins, and Jesus had NO Sin at all.

Therefore the Death cannot reign over Him, but Jesus Had the Eternal Life.

Jesus didn't have to die, but died for us.

This is very much basic Truth of Christianity.


How could Jesus say this?

Joh 8:51 - Show Context
Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
Joh 8:52 - Show Context
Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

 

[donnA]

Donna, even your answers sound like a few lawyers I know.:laugh:

hummmm, a lawyer friend of ours (yep, even lawyers seem to have friends, this one is a christian and used to be our teacher), asked once when I was going to law school,
lol, yeah, me, lol.........

 

[annsni]

You didn't answer my question fully yet.

Among them, if I point out one again, you need to answer how Egg became Word?

As the Holy Spirit - I wasn't there.

Word means invisible truth, did Egg become invisible and disappear?

No - but the Word became the flesh that the Holy Spirit created with Mary's egg. The egg was not yet "flesh" as in a body for the Word.

Even Joseph's lineage is mentioned to show that Jesus is on the David's genealogy. In your logic, JOseph has nothing to do with Jesus, and therefore he cannot be a help to prove that Jesus came thru David's family. Even the Step Father is mentioned to prove the Lineage. the Surrogate Motherhood is nothing short of the family lineage.

Joseph's lineage doesn't mean anything because he had nothing to do with the birth of Christ other than most probably delivering Him. A stepfather has nothing to do with lineage at all - that's ridiculous. I believe that the reason that he IS listed is that I'm not that sure that it was common knowledge to all around Him that Jesus was born to a virgin mother. Joseph took Mary as his wife but didn't know her until after Jesus was born. But I'm sure many assumed that he was the father and having his lineage can show that even through the man who was supposed to be His father, Jesus was of the line of David.

 

[donnA]

Joseph's lineage doesn't mean anything

wonder why God included it in the bible, must have been for some reason

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ann: But I'm sure many assumed that he was the father and having his lineage can show that even through the man who was supposed to be His father, Jesus was of the line of David.

HP: Either He was of the lineage of David through Joseph as Scripture states, or He was not. Possibly you take DHK’s position i.e., that God was untruthful so as to convince the Jews He was when in reality we through the Spirit know He was not. Is that your position?

 

[Chemnitz]

the use of Joseph's sperm cell takes away the sinlessness of Christ if it was used.

the use of Mary's ova takes away the sinlessness of Christ if it was used as well.

Woman disobeyed first according to Genesis 3. The woman was representing Adam.

Sin is the transgression of the law. Eve transgressed the law. she brought the sin into the world.

First it is ovum, ova is the plural of ovum, only needed one ovum for Jesus. Second the use of an ovum in no way would detract from the sinlessness of Christ as his human nature is not the source of his perfection. Rather his divine nature is his source of perfection and that perfection was communicated to his human nature through the incarnation. I do not see why it is so hard to grasp that the Word became flesh through the use of Mary's ovum.

Hebrew 7 has little to do with whether or not Jesus had any human parents, rather it is in reference to Christ as priest. He is unlike the Levites in that his priesthood is not dependant on lineage.

 

[Eliyahu]

wonder why God included it in the bible, must have been for some reason

Correct! we should not ignore it.

 

[Brother Bob]

Brother Bob,

You are rough here again.



So, you do not believe 1 Cor 15?

You forget that He was 100 percent man and 100 percent God.

Not now, after the resurrection.




NOt necessarily to be same in that aspect. We will not suffer the death any more because we already suffered it.
Yes, before the resurrection.


I didn't say you spoke foolishly, but you are not wise, because you cannot defend yourself reasonably.

You don't believe 1 Cor 15:47 and John 8:23 because of your theology.

Jesus was from Heaven, even during His life on this earth, He was in Heaven ( John 3:13).

The Death came by sins.

If there was no sin, there would have been no death.

You are greatly mistaken here.

If Adam had not sinned, he wouldnot have died and the sin wouldn't have entered the world.

Jas 1:15 - Show Context
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Ro 5:12 - Show Context
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Death is the Result of the Sins, and Jesus had NO Sin at all.

Therefore the Death cannot reign over Him, but Jesus Had the Eternal Life.

Jesus didn't have to die, but died for us.

This is very much basic Truth of Christianity.


How could Jesus say this?

Joh 8:51 - Show Context
Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
Joh 8:52 - Show Context
Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

I see nothing here that is worthy of trying to answer. I answered it several times, should be enough. I even gave you the scripture that He was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death. You just do not seem to understand.

I tried, sorry

BBob,

 

[cowboymatt]

You are correct, Eliyahu. The link was originally to a different page. Now, it is to his wife's page. He changed it to his wife's page. I had clicked that link and it did not go to the page it is now at.

I did not change the link. You are mistaken. Go back and look for yourself at post #245 where it is plainly visible that Eliyahu linked to my wife's myspace page and then proceeded to slam her because of a New Kids on the Block (not rave...lol) song and a Halloween reference. Sure, he didn't mention her by name, but he judged her plain and simple.

And while it may not be against the rules, does that make it any less despicable? Why would you defend his behavior? He acted like a jerk and the fact that you and donna have both defended him makes me lose respect for the two of you.

Again, there is no moderation here and the rules are not enforced, which makes this place less and less bearable by the second.