The Birth of Israel

[David Koberstein]

No, you haven't. All you've done is display the typical Jewish attitude of superiority, and resort to smears.

M

You don’t really believe in the New Testament, do you? Just be hones

My people the Jews wrote the New Covenant. What do you think?
Shalom

 

[David Koberstein]

You don’t really believe in the New Testament, do you? Just be honest.

My people the Jews wrote the New Testament. What do you think?
Shalom

 

[Rye]

My people the Jews wrote the New Testament. What do you think?

As I said, Luke may or may not have been a Jew. But be that as it may, you still refuse to accept a clear Biblical teaching that Jesus was in fact killed by the Jews. That's the reality and you can't find any way around it. You are so proud of your ethnicity that you cannot possibly accept that.

This sounds like the antisemitism that Hitler and Martin Luther was selling.

It's antisemitic people like you that give the Baptist a black eye.

I would caution you against accusing Baptists of being antisemitic or aligning with Hitler. You're not going to win any friends here that way. I can tell you that I have not yet come across a single member on this board as having even the slightest hint of antisemitism. As for me, I am a Baptist and I am very pro-Israel and that has nothing to do with eschatological reasons either.

I would advise you to pray, stop being so racially-minded, drop the prideful attitude and accept what God's Word says.

Galatians 3:28 - There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[David Koberstein]

As I said, Luke may or may not have been a Jew. But be that as it may, you still refuse to accept a clear Biblical teaching that Jesus was in fact killed by the Jews. That's the reality and you can't find any way around it. You are so proud of your ethnicity that you cannot possibly accept that.





I would caution you against accusing Baptists of being antisemitic or aligning with Hitler. You're not going to win any friends here that way. I can tell you that I have not yet come across a single member on this board as having even the slightest hint of antisemitism. As for me, I am a Baptist and I am very pro-Israel and that has nothing to do with eschatological reasons either.

I would advise you to pray, stop being so racially-minded, drop the prideful attitude and accept what God's Word says.

Galatians 3:28 - There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

I'm not here to win friends only to convey truth. The Jews did not murder Yeshua.
The Roman government did. When people say that the Jews did, not only is it a lie it is antisemitic. It wasn't a Jew that placed the crown of thorns on his head or nailed Him to an execution stake or put a spear in his side to hasten his demise. Hitler and Martin Luther made the same antisemitic statement and we know how that ended. I would advise you to look at biblical history and drop the legalism. Salvation is of the Jews Yes spiritually we are one in Yeshua. That part you did get right. If you are a believer in Yeshua Hamashiach you have been grafted into our Jewish Olive Tree.
Shalom

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I'm not here to win friends only to convey truth. The Jews did not murder Yeshua.
The Roman government did. When people say that the Jews did, not only is it a lie it is antisemitic. It wasn't a Jew that placed the crown of thorns on his head or nailed Him to an execution stake or put a spear in his side to hasten his demise. Hitler and Martin Luther made the same antisemitic statement and we know how that ended. I would advise you to look at biblical history and drop the legalism. Salvation is of the Jews Yes spiritually we are one in Yeshua. That part you did get right. If you are a believer in Yeshua Hamashiach you have been grafted into our Jewish Olive Tree.
Shalom

Interesting…I am certain that “Yeshua Hamashiach” stuff will not fly with any of the Jewish Rabbis that I know, much less my Jewish friends no matter how secular they are, not if you are of a gentile goyem community. However I’d be interested in having dialogue with any rabonum (preferably a Talmudic scholar) that would acknowledge this grafted in business. Perhaps I should ask around. Are there any particular Jewish sects i.e., Orthodox, Hasidic, Conservative, Reformed etc I should be approaching?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I'm not here to win friends only to convey truth. The Jews did not murder Yeshua.
The Roman government did. When people say that the Jews did, not only is it a lie it is antisemitic. It wasn't a Jew that placed the crown of thorns on his head or nailed Him to an execution stake or put a spear in his side to hasten his demise. Hitler and Martin Luther made the same antisemitic statement and we know how that ended. I would advise you to look at biblical history and drop the legalism. Salvation is of the Jews Yes spiritually we are one in Yeshua. That part you did get right. If you are a believer in Yeshua Hamashiach you have been grafted into our Jewish Olive Tree.
Shalom

Also, I do agree with you that the Jews did not physically execute Jesus ….however I would concede that they collaborated with the Romans in the arrest, trial and condemnation of Him via the Sanhedrin to have Him executed and that’s not antisemitism but it is a proven fact via the testimony in the Bible. Shall I go through it with you… but your statement identifies you as a Baptist so you must know this already. Right.

 

[David Koberstein]

Interesting…I am certain that “Yeshua Hamashiach” stuff will not fly with any of the Jewish Rabbis that I know, much less my Jewish friends no matter how secular they are, not if you are of a gentile goyem community. However I’d be interested in having dialogue with any rabonum (preferably a Talmudic scholar) that would acknowledge this grafted in business. Perhaps I should ask around. Are there any particular Jewish sects i.e., Orthodox, Hasidic, Conservative, Reformed etc I should be approaching?

Also, I do agree with you that the Jews did not physically execute Jesus ….however I would concede that they collaborated with the Romans in the arrest, trial and condemnation of Him via the Sanhedrin to have Him executed and that’s not antisemitism but it is a proven fact via the testimony in the Bible. Shall I go through it with you… but your statement identifies you as a Baptist so you must know this already. Right.

I am a Messianic Jew that believes in the Messianic faith. I attend and am a member of a Southern Baptist Church where I teach
the men's Bible Class from a Messianic perspective on occasion. I also do philanthropy in the church to help the poor and needy.
Shalom

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I am a Messianic Jew that believes in the Messianic faith. I attend and am a member of a Southern Baptist Church where I teach
the men's Bible Class from a Messianic perspective on occasion. I also do philanthropy in the church to help the poor and needy.
Shalom

OK, thanks for the explaination. So you acknowledge Jesus is Messiah. Splendid.

 

[David Koberstein]

Interesting…I am certain that “Yeshua Hamashiach” stuff will not fly with any of the Jewish Rabbis that I know, much less my Jewish friends no matter how secular they are, not if you are of a gentile goyem community. However I’d be interested in having dialogue with any rabonum (preferably a Talmudic scholar) that would acknowledge this grafted in business. Perhaps I should ask around. Are there any particular Jewish sects i.e., Orthodox, Hasidic, Conservative, Reformed etc I should be approaching?

Messianic Jewish

 

[John of Japan]

I am a member of a Southern Baptist Church.

Being a member of a Baptist church does not make you a Baptist any more than putting a kitty cat in a doghouse makes it a dog.

Have you been immersed on your profession of faith? Do you know and agree with the Baptist Distinctives?

This denomination isn't immune to sex scandals. They are still paying money to settle sex abuse cases. I apologize if I offended you in any way. I would not make a statement if there was no truth in it.

No denomination is immune to sex scandals. But that is totally irrelevant here on the BB.

As a Messianic Jew we study genealogies, customs, culture and numbers in the Tanakh. We look at the literal Hebrew in the Masoretic Text. We look at the Scriptures through Jewish eyes, not Western eyes.

The Bible, OT and NT, is for the entire world, Jew and Gentile. Of course I look at the Bible with Gentile eyes since I'm a Gentile. Duh! I also look at it with American eyes, being an American, and Japanese eyes since I ministered there for 33 years and am translating the OT into Japanese. The Bible speaks to all people groups. Having said that, of course I study the Jewishness of the Bible. I'd be a lousy translator if I didn't. So your point here begs the question.

If you like types than go for it. As a Messianic I prefer to look at genealogies, customs, culture, and numbers in the Tanakh. I also look at the B'rit Hadashah the same way.
Blessings in our Messiah
Shabbat Shalom

It matters not in the slightest if I "like types." They are God's idea, not mine. Here are Scriptures proving that:

" Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted" (1 Cor. 10: 6).
"Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come"
v. 11; "examples" and "ensamples" are the Greek τύπος, where we get the English word "type.")

"Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount" (Heb. 8:5, "example" is the same Greek.)

If you oppose the study of types. therefore, you are missing something wonderful that God (not me) put in His Word. Get down off your high horse and open your mind.

My son teaches Hebrew History in our college, and Hebrew in our seminary. I sincerely doubt if you know more about those subjects than he does. As for myself, I took Hebrew from a leading Gentile scholar of the language, who got his PhD in Hebrew at Dropsie U., which was Jewish. I doubt if you were better in Hebrew than he. If you think so, here is the book in which he did a discourse analysis of Hebrew: A Theory For Biblical Translation: An Optimal Equivalence Model, by James D. Price. (Alas, it's out of print.)

 

[John of Japan]

Messianic Jewish View attachment 10261

Well, now, look at this! You don't believe in types, but here you are pointing to the olive tree as a type of the Jewish people!

 

[David Koberstein]

Being a member of a Baptist church does not make you a Baptist any more than putting a kitty cat in a doghouse makes it a dog.

Have you been immersed on your profession of faith? Do you know and agree with the Baptist Distinctives?

No denomination is immune to sex scandals. But that is totally irrelevant here on the BB.


The Bible, OT and NT, is for the entire world, Jew and Gentile. Of course I look at the Bible with Gentile eyes since I'm a Gentile. Duh! I also look at it with American eyes, being an American, and Japanese eyes since I ministered there for 33 years and am translating the OT into Japanese. The Bible speaks to all people groups. Having said that, of course I study the Jewishness of the Bible. I'd be a lousy translator if I didn't. So your point here begs the question.


It matters not in the slightest if I "like types." They are God's idea, not mine. Here are Scriptures proving that:

" Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted" (1 Cor. 10: 6).
"Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come"
v. 11; "examples" and "ensamples" are the Greek τύπος, where we get the English word "type.")

"Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount" (Heb. 8:5, "example" is the same Greek.)

If you oppose the study of types. therefore, you are missing something wonderful that God (not me) put in His Word.

Who are you the immersion police?
I don't know whether you are mis informed or dis informed. I believe in the Messianic Orthodoxy not Baptist distinctiveness.
The word Baptist has a negative stigma attached to it probably because of the extreme legalism. I know Baptist churches that have dropped the word Baptist from their church name and replaced it with community to distance themselves from that negative optics. News Flash! Church attendance is at an all time low. Wonder why that is. I guess nobody is buying the hypocrisy they are selling.
Shalom

 

[David Koberstein]

Well, now, look at this! You don't believe in types, but here you are point to the olive tree as a type of the Jewish people!

No, but I hope you are grafted in.
Shalom

 

[John of Japan]

No, but I hope you are grafted in.
Shalom

Tut, tut. Just admit that you posted a diagram of a type. Or perhaps ask for help in learning exactly what a Biblical type is.

 

[John of Japan]

Who are you the immersion police?

Actually, I am. I could show you the badge. Lighten up, dude. My point was, are you sure you belong on a board limited to genuine Baptists?

I don't know whether you are mis informed or dis informed. I believe in the Messianic Orthodoxy not Baptist distinctiveness.

You missed my point entirely. In fact, with this statement you proved my point, which was that here you are, a non-Baptist on the Baptist board.

The word Baptist has a negative stigma attached to it probably because of the extreme legalism.

Seldom have I seen a more ignorant statement on the Baptist Board. Let's see. Can you actually give a theological statement of the meaning of legalism? If not, stop calling names and gain some humility. And if we are so legalistic, what our you doing here on our discussion forum? Here to teach us, hmm? So far you are not impressing.

I know Baptist churches that have dropped the word Baptist from their church name and replaced it with community to distance themselves from that negative optics.

I completely agree that America needs revival. That does not deny the Baptist distinctives, which are simply Biblical statements of ecclesiology.

News Flash! Church attendance is at an all time low. Wonder why that is. I guess nobody is buying the hypocrisy they are selling.
Shalom

Wow. You are incredibly negative about other born again believers.

"Rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee" (Prov.9:8). Your answer will show what you are.

 

[kyredneck]

the Jews did not physically execute Jesus ….however

However,,,,The Spirit makes no bones about who killed Christ:

1 Thess 2
14 For ye, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus: for ye also suffered the same things of your own countrymen, even as they did of the Jews;
15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us, and pleased not God, and are contrary to all men;

Acts 2:
…. they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance…Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth… ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay…God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified. Acts 2:4,22,23,36

Acts 3:
…Peter… answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel… his Servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him… ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted unto you, and killed the Prince of life… whereof we are witnesses. Acts 3:12-15

Acts 4:
…Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders… be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified… Acts 4:8,10

Acts 5:
… they set them before the council…. ye have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and intend to bring this man`s blood upon us…. Peter and the apostles answered and said… The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew, hanging him on a tree… we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit Acts 5:27,28,29,30,32

Acts 6 & 7:
…there arose certain of them that were of the synagogue called the synagogue of the Libertines, and of the Cyrenians, and of the Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and Asia, disputing with Stephen. And they were not able to withstand the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spake….Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? and they killed them that showed before of the coming of the Righteous One; of whom ye have now become betrayers and murderers; Acts 6:9,10; Acts 7:51,52

Acts 10:
…we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the country of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom also they slew, hanging him on a tree…. Him God raised up the third day, and gave him to be made manifest, not to all the people, but unto witnesses that were chosen before of God, even to us, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. And he charged us to preach unto the people, and to testify that this is he who is ordained of God to be the Judge of the living and the dead. Acts 10: 39-42

Acts 13:
…Paul stood up, and beckoning with the hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, hearken…they that dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning him. And though they found no cause of death in him, yet asked they of Pilate that he should be slain. And when they had fulfilled all things that were written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a tomb. But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen for many days of them that came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses unto the people. Acts 13:16,27-31

Mt 23:
33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Mt 23

Mt 27:
25 And all the people answered and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

However,,,,The Spirit makes no bones about who killed Christ:

1 Thess 2
14 For ye, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus: for ye also suffered the same things of your own countrymen, even as they did of the Jews;
15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us, and pleased not God, and are contrary to all men;

Acts 2:
…. they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance…Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth… ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay…God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified. Acts 2:4,22,23,36

Acts 3:
…Peter… answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel… his Servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him… ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted unto you, and killed the Prince of life… whereof we are witnesses. Acts 3:12-15

Acts 4:
…Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders… be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified… Acts 4:8,10

Acts 5:
… they set them before the council…. ye have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and intend to bring this man`s blood upon us…. Peter and the apostles answered and said… The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew, hanging him on a tree… we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit Acts 5:27,28,29,30,32

Acts 6 & 7:
…there arose certain of them that were of the synagogue called the synagogue of the Libertines, and of the Cyrenians, and of the Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and Asia, disputing with Stephen. And they were not able to withstand the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spake….Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? and they killed them that showed before of the coming of the Righteous One; of whom ye have now become betrayers and murderers; Acts 6:9,10; Acts 7:51,52

Acts 10:
…we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the country of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom also they slew, hanging him on a tree…. Him God raised up the third day, and gave him to be made manifest, not to all the people, but unto witnesses that were chosen before of God, even to us, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. And he charged us to preach unto the people, and to testify that this is he who is ordained of God to be the Judge of the living and the dead. Acts 10: 39-42

Acts 13:
…Paul stood up, and beckoning with the hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, hearken…they that dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning him. And though they found no cause of death in him, yet asked they of Pilate that he should be slain. And when they had fulfilled all things that were written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a tomb. But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen for many days of them that came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses unto the people. Acts 13:16,27-31

Mt 23:
33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Mt 23

Mt 27:
25 And all the people answered and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

But the Jews didn’t execute him physically. They fully engineered it however

 

[David Koberstein]

Actually, I am. I could show you the badge. Lighten up, dude. My point was, are you sure you belong on a board limited to genuine Baptists?

You missed my point entirely. In fact, with this statement you proved my point, which was that here you are, a non-Baptist on the Baptist board.

Seldom have I seen a more ignorant statement on the Baptist Board. Let's see. Can you actually give a theological statement of the meaning of legalism? If not, stop calling names and gain some humility. And if we are so legalistic, what our you doing here on our discussion forum? Here to teach us, hmm? So far you are not impressing.


I completely agree that America needs revival. That does not deny the Baptist distinctives, which are simply Biblical statements of ecclesiology.


Wow. You are incredibly negative about other born again believers.

"Rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee" (Prov.9:8). Your answer will show what you are.

Wow we do have a lot to discuss. I moved my future posts out of the Baptist only into a general forum so everyone can respond.
You do not know my journey through life.
I know all about Independent Fundamental Baptist legalism. It nearly destroyed my family. Actually there internet postings informing people it is a cult. My late father was a closet Jew because of antisemitism that married a Gentile woman.
My mother raised us in a IFB church with all the whistle and bells of legalism. After we moved out my youngest brother converted to Catholicism, my other brother doesn't bother with church anymore. I converted to Messianic Judaism . My sister is non denominational. My mother is 94 years old.
Because of her outspoken passive aggressive legalism she has no friends. When she passes, my brother and sister will not be in attendance. My sister has not seen our mother in over 20 years and has no intention of seeing her. My mother has been super critical of people which drove people away. Currently it's my brother and I that have wealth that are paying her expenses for her assistant living apartment. If not she would be on the street or section 8 housing. The Torah says to honor your father and mother. I have done that and more. Two things I hate is antisemitism and legalism. They are cancers in our society. I don't know why people are antisemitic towards Jews. Is it the Anointed One that we represent or the unexplainable blessings we have in Adonai as God's chosen people? I'm also a card carrying Messianic Jew that worships and serves in a Baptist Church. I will let you figure that one out.
Shalom

Actually, I am. I could show you the badge. Lighten up, dude. My point was, are you sure you belong on a board limited to genuine Baptists?

You missed my point entirely. In fact, with this statement you proved my point, which was that here you are, a non-Baptist on the Baptist board.

Seldom have I seen a more ignorant statement on the Baptist Board. Let's see. Can you actually give a theological statement of the meaning of legalism? If not, stop calling names and gain some humility. And if we are so legalistic, what our you doing here on our discussion forum? Here to teach us, hmm? So far you are not impressing.


I completely agree that America needs revival. That does not deny the Baptist distinctives, which are simply Biblical statements of ecclesiology.


Wow. You are incredibly negative about other born again believers.

"Rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee" (Prov.9:8). Your answer will show what you are.

 

[John of Japan]

Wow we do have a lot to discuss. I moved my future posts out of the Baptist only into a general forum so everyone can respond.

I seriously doubt if we have a lot to discuss. So far you have come across as judgmental and ignorant of basic theology. Furthermore, you generalize unfairly about a movement of 10,000 churches (in the US alone) I grew up in (non legalistic independent Baptists), my father pastored in for 60 years, my grandfather led in the development of, and I teach in a Bible college of.

You do not know my journey through life.

I know the journeys of many through life. I teach students every day who have had a very tough life. (More than one of my students has been a drug addict with a terrible childhood.) I have not asked to know yours, and am not sure I want to, since you've been so disrespectful. Tell me about your walk with Jesus instead.

I am currently discipling a former drug addict and felon. He is humble and loves the Word of God and our Savior. I seriously doubt if your journey is worse than his.

 

[kyredneck]

But the Jews didn’t execute him physically. They fully engineered it however

They 'physically' paid for Him to be betrayed, arrested Him, illegally tried Him by night, subpoenaed false witnesses against Him, persuaded the multitude to call for a murderer's release in lieu His. and pressured Pilate to condemn Him when he was minded to release Him.