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The bumpy road to the partial openness of God
- Thread starter Van
- Start date
Van u said-
Please be more specific—about which Calvinist writers you’ve dissected—have you read Thomas Schreiner, Al Mohler, Bruce Ware, Douglas Moo, DA Carson, & believe their work can be classified as ‘shoddy’. Further-- If you don’t mind could you please list some theologians who you feel support your ideas & conclusions?
I love how u handle a question by refusing to answer unless the person asking answers one of your questions first. And when they do answer you—you say they are incorrect & say you rely on Scripture not man mad theories. Yet what you really rely on-- is your own interpretation of Scripture—which in all actuality--- is simply a man made theory (ie interpretation). You do understand this right?
Yes, I understand you are attacking me personally and not attempting to support your views, just disparaging those with differing views. When someone does post a view, I will say I agree or I think it is wrong because of such and such scripture. As to relying on my interpretation of scripture, yes that is true. But to suggest that same fraility does not affect your views is absurd. So much ado about nothing.
Next we have the Calvinist who repeats and repeats the charge that no one believes as I do. First, how would anyone know what all the other Christians, living and asleep believed. It is utter nonsense. But it disparages me. I have said all my beliefs are corroberated with other believers. But not the same believers. I believe when we are saved we are saved forever. Arminians do not believe that but many Calvinists and non-Calvinist Baptists believe that. How about faith before regeneration? Arminians believe that but Calvinists do not. Lots of folks belief Christ died for all people. I could go on, but the point is the attacks are manufactured to shift the subject away from the false doctrines of Calvinism. Pure and simple.
Next we have the Calvinist who repeats and repeats the charge that no one believes as I do. First, how would anyone know what all the other Christians, living and asleep believed. It is utter nonsense. But it disparages me. I have said all my beliefs are corroberated with other believers. But not the same believers. I believe when we are saved we are saved forever. Arminians do not believe that but many Calvinists and non-Calvinist Baptists believe that. How about faith before regeneration? Arminians believe that but Calvinists do not. Lots of folks belief Christ died for all people. I could go on, but the point is the attacks are manufactured to shift the subject away from the false doctrines of Calvinism. Pure and simple.
Does God create or make people one at a time or did God just create the mechanism for humans to reproduce and make new souls all by themselves? Who is the real "father" of our spirit? What does scripture say? If God makes or creates us, one baby at a time, then He is the giver of life. Thus He continues to create the future all the time.
Clue: Isaiah 44:24, Zechariah 12:1, Hebrews 12:9.
Clue: Isaiah 44:24, Zechariah 12:1, Hebrews 12:9.
You do realize I’m not a full-blooded Calvinist—I’m reformed—not sure what Calvinism has to do with this! And if you’ve ever read my posts—I’m very accepting of opposing view points to my own—but only if they are biblically plausible! You do have some ideas that are biblically plausible—but some of your conclusions are not—u ask for evidence---look at the other threads we’ve counteracted in & you’ll find what u seek. I just don’t want someone as interested as Scripture as yourself to not have the have the ability to reach their full potential b/c they lack the proper training.
This thread is not about me, nor about any other poster, it is about the bumpy road to the partial openness of God.
Here is the last on topic post:
Does God create or make people one at a time or did God just create the mechanism for humans to reproduce and make new souls all by themselves? Who is the real "father" of our spirit? What does scripture say? If God makes or creates us, one baby at a time, then He is the giver of life. Thus He continues to create the future all the time.
Clue: Isaiah 44:24, Zechariah 12:1, Hebrews 12:9.
Here is the last on topic post:
Does God create or make people one at a time or did God just create the mechanism for humans to reproduce and make new souls all by themselves? Who is the real "father" of our spirit? What does scripture say? If God makes or creates us, one baby at a time, then He is the giver of life. Thus He continues to create the future all the time.
Clue: Isaiah 44:24, Zechariah 12:1, Hebrews 12:9.
What does an all-knowing God know?
Psalm 139:4 says that “God doth know all things.” Hebrews 4:13 expands the revelation to indicate that God knows everything about all those who relate to Him. Peter, speaking to the risen Christ, says in John 21:17, that Jesus knows all things, but in context the implicit meaning is that Jesus knows all things about Peter including the depth of Peter’s brotherly love of Christ. 1 John 3:20 says that God knows all things, but in context the meaning is that God knows all things concerning the heart. Therefore, all four references indicate God is all knowing concerning the “hidden” thoughts, motives and will of people relating to God during the time of their life.
1 Chronicles 28:9 says in part, “…serve Him (God) with a whole heart and a willing mind; for the LORD (Yahweh) searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts….” The key here is see that although God searches every heart, it is an assumption to conclude He searches every heart at all times, since other verses indicate God sometimes chooses not to search our hearts. Accordingly, the “every intent of the thoughts” is limited to the results of the searches, and does not stand alone to indicate every intent of every thought is known. Further, it is an unwarranted extrapolation to say God knows all this before a person’s life. It could be so, but there is no biblical support for the notion. To return to an underlying theme, just because God, with whom all things are possible, is capable of a postulated activity, does not suggest in the slightest that He actually performed the postulated activity in the absence of direct biblical support.
Additionally, even though the norm is that God does know all things concerning the hidden thoughts and motives of the individuals He is dealing with, if it suits His purpose,
He can choose to keep even that knowledge from Himself. For example, God desired to test Abraham and so had him prepare to sacrifice Isaac. When God saw that Abraham had raised the knife and was ready to sacrifice his son, God stopped him and said, “Now I know you fear God.” The point is that God can choose to look into a persons heart, or not, if his purpose is to test and create a type to bring the gospel message in a compelling manner. Another example is found at Deuteronomy 8:2, where God tests His people to know whether they will keep His commandments. Thus God on occasion chooses not to access information concerning their heart, in order to test them and bring about growth through discipline.
Armed with this knowledge of our hidden thoughts and motivations, God can predict what we would do if certain circumstances arise. Thus Jesus can say that if the people of Sodom had seen His miracles, they would have repented (Matthew 11:23).
Yes, some passages (Psalm 147:5, Isaiah 40:28, Romans 11:33) do suggest that God’s understanding (knowledge) is infinite and thus suggests that God does not self limit His knowledge in order to fulfill His sovereign purpose. But the Hebrew word translated infinite actually means beyond our understanding rather than endless or infinite. Hence the word is sometimes translated unsearchable, or unfathomable. God knows or can know everything happening in the here and now, in His created creation, from the death of something as seemingly worthless as a sparrow sold for a small amount, to the number of hairs on our heads. God’s knowledge and understanding is way beyond what we can comprehend, unfathomable, deeper and wider than we can imagine. Yet we can imagine aspects of God’s knowledge that is our error, for example when we plunge past the revelation contained in His word. Scripture says God learns and therefore to stubbornly say God already knew and these verses are anthropomorphisms and do not actually mean what they literally say is to sacrifice biblical truth on the alter of man-made doctrine. Just as scripture says God can disregard and not use information He has acquired, for He promises to forgive our sins and remember them no more forever, it says God takes actions based on responding to the decisions of men.
The divide between the “free will theists” and the “deterministic theists” cannot be resolved by saying God knowing beforehand what we will do does not compel that choice because logically it does, and therefore we are not free to do other than what we do. Neither can the divide be resolved by saying we are free to do what we will choose to do because this choice has been foreordained by God, because this is simply redefining the meaning of free will from the ability to chose whatever, to the ability to do what we want to do. Therefore we must seek to resolve this divide along another path.
The view that God created the future and therefore it exists and is only revealed as time moves on, must be rejected because this view requires God to have exhaustive knowledge of the future, since He has already created it. But if we say the future is conception and not creation, then the future has not been created, and is being created by God as time marches on. This view says God makes the future happen according to His purpose and plan. It does not challenge God's exhaustive knowledge of the present, everything He has created and sustains except for what He has chosen to disregard. It does not say God does not have a view of the future, that He does not declare the end from the beginning, it just says God makes it happen, He fulfills His prophecies. It does not say that God cannot know our individual future, because He can search our heart, and can utilize that knowledge of our heart and bring about a situation where we choose to do what He has determined, such as Jesus telling Peter that one day Peter would stretch out his hands and go where he did not want to go.
The idea that God has already created the future, and that life is an illusion, like the showing of a film with the end of the film already in existence is not biblical. Think about all the verses that say we cannot hide our thoughts from God. This teaches that we come up with our thoughts autonomously and then God who knows our hearts knows what we think. No verse says God gives us our thoughts. Instead, many verses teach that although we come up with our thoughts or plans, when we put our thoughts or plans into action, we step out upon the reality that is God’s creation and therefore our steps only go where God’s reality allows.
In summary, the view that God has already created the future and it exists on the other side of time is unbiblical, it is instead the view of Greek philosophy.
Psalm 139:4 says that “God doth know all things.” Hebrews 4:13 expands the revelation to indicate that God knows everything about all those who relate to Him. Peter, speaking to the risen Christ, says in John 21:17, that Jesus knows all things, but in context the implicit meaning is that Jesus knows all things about Peter including the depth of Peter’s brotherly love of Christ. 1 John 3:20 says that God knows all things, but in context the meaning is that God knows all things concerning the heart. Therefore, all four references indicate God is all knowing concerning the “hidden” thoughts, motives and will of people relating to God during the time of their life.
1 Chronicles 28:9 says in part, “…serve Him (God) with a whole heart and a willing mind; for the LORD (Yahweh) searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts….” The key here is see that although God searches every heart, it is an assumption to conclude He searches every heart at all times, since other verses indicate God sometimes chooses not to search our hearts. Accordingly, the “every intent of the thoughts” is limited to the results of the searches, and does not stand alone to indicate every intent of every thought is known. Further, it is an unwarranted extrapolation to say God knows all this before a person’s life. It could be so, but there is no biblical support for the notion. To return to an underlying theme, just because God, with whom all things are possible, is capable of a postulated activity, does not suggest in the slightest that He actually performed the postulated activity in the absence of direct biblical support.
Additionally, even though the norm is that God does know all things concerning the hidden thoughts and motives of the individuals He is dealing with, if it suits His purpose,
He can choose to keep even that knowledge from Himself. For example, God desired to test Abraham and so had him prepare to sacrifice Isaac. When God saw that Abraham had raised the knife and was ready to sacrifice his son, God stopped him and said, “Now I know you fear God.” The point is that God can choose to look into a persons heart, or not, if his purpose is to test and create a type to bring the gospel message in a compelling manner. Another example is found at Deuteronomy 8:2, where God tests His people to know whether they will keep His commandments. Thus God on occasion chooses not to access information concerning their heart, in order to test them and bring about growth through discipline.
Armed with this knowledge of our hidden thoughts and motivations, God can predict what we would do if certain circumstances arise. Thus Jesus can say that if the people of Sodom had seen His miracles, they would have repented (Matthew 11:23).
Yes, some passages (Psalm 147:5, Isaiah 40:28, Romans 11:33) do suggest that God’s understanding (knowledge) is infinite and thus suggests that God does not self limit His knowledge in order to fulfill His sovereign purpose. But the Hebrew word translated infinite actually means beyond our understanding rather than endless or infinite. Hence the word is sometimes translated unsearchable, or unfathomable. God knows or can know everything happening in the here and now, in His created creation, from the death of something as seemingly worthless as a sparrow sold for a small amount, to the number of hairs on our heads. God’s knowledge and understanding is way beyond what we can comprehend, unfathomable, deeper and wider than we can imagine. Yet we can imagine aspects of God’s knowledge that is our error, for example when we plunge past the revelation contained in His word. Scripture says God learns and therefore to stubbornly say God already knew and these verses are anthropomorphisms and do not actually mean what they literally say is to sacrifice biblical truth on the alter of man-made doctrine. Just as scripture says God can disregard and not use information He has acquired, for He promises to forgive our sins and remember them no more forever, it says God takes actions based on responding to the decisions of men.
The divide between the “free will theists” and the “deterministic theists” cannot be resolved by saying God knowing beforehand what we will do does not compel that choice because logically it does, and therefore we are not free to do other than what we do. Neither can the divide be resolved by saying we are free to do what we will choose to do because this choice has been foreordained by God, because this is simply redefining the meaning of free will from the ability to chose whatever, to the ability to do what we want to do. Therefore we must seek to resolve this divide along another path.
The view that God created the future and therefore it exists and is only revealed as time moves on, must be rejected because this view requires God to have exhaustive knowledge of the future, since He has already created it. But if we say the future is conception and not creation, then the future has not been created, and is being created by God as time marches on. This view says God makes the future happen according to His purpose and plan. It does not challenge God's exhaustive knowledge of the present, everything He has created and sustains except for what He has chosen to disregard. It does not say God does not have a view of the future, that He does not declare the end from the beginning, it just says God makes it happen, He fulfills His prophecies. It does not say that God cannot know our individual future, because He can search our heart, and can utilize that knowledge of our heart and bring about a situation where we choose to do what He has determined, such as Jesus telling Peter that one day Peter would stretch out his hands and go where he did not want to go.
The idea that God has already created the future, and that life is an illusion, like the showing of a film with the end of the film already in existence is not biblical. Think about all the verses that say we cannot hide our thoughts from God. This teaches that we come up with our thoughts autonomously and then God who knows our hearts knows what we think. No verse says God gives us our thoughts. Instead, many verses teach that although we come up with our thoughts or plans, when we put our thoughts or plans into action, we step out upon the reality that is God’s creation and therefore our steps only go where God’s reality allows.
In summary, the view that God has already created the future and it exists on the other side of time is unbiblical, it is instead the view of Greek philosophy.
quantumfaith
Active Member
quantumfaith
Active Member
Jesusfan, you brought a question, often posed to me. One I too, sometimes share,
1. What exactly is the "will" of God ( meaning how we speak of it)
2. How does one KNOW God's Will
But, alas, I do not want to derail, so perhaps, someone will start another thread sometime soon.
Hi Quantumfaith, here is the deal. If Omniscience is defined as God knows everything imaginable, including everything past, present and future, then exhaustive determinism describes reality. No matter what we might think we are doing to alter our future, we are not because the future is fixed by God's knowledge.
To accept this view we must use tools to nullify scripture after scripture. God cannot learn, cause He knows it all, so when scripture says "now I know" it does not mean what it says. When scripture says God searches the heart, it really means He knows everything in our heart before creation. When God says He sets before us the choice of life or death and desires us to choose life, it only means that for those He knows will choose life, unless you have God making a mistake and desireing something He knows cannot happen.
So the correct and biblically supported view of Omniscience is God knows everything He has chosen to know. This leaves aside all the silly talk about middle knowledge and whether God knows the unknowable, whatever that is. I simply says God knows what the Bible explicitly says He knows. It is a minimalist view of scripture.
The hope is if we retrace our steps and return to what is solid, we will strengthen the unity of the body and more effectively reach others for Christ.
To accept this view we must use tools to nullify scripture after scripture. God cannot learn, cause He knows it all, so when scripture says "now I know" it does not mean what it says. When scripture says God searches the heart, it really means He knows everything in our heart before creation. When God says He sets before us the choice of life or death and desires us to choose life, it only means that for those He knows will choose life, unless you have God making a mistake and desireing something He knows cannot happen.
So the correct and biblically supported view of Omniscience is God knows everything He has chosen to know. This leaves aside all the silly talk about middle knowledge and whether God knows the unknowable, whatever that is. I simply says God knows what the Bible explicitly says He knows. It is a minimalist view of scripture.
The hope is if we retrace our steps and return to what is solid, we will strengthen the unity of the body and more effectively reach others for Christ.
Open theism is a heresy.Anyone teaching open theism therefore is a heretic.
Folks, Calvinists defend their false doctrines by lobbing attacks,
Now to return to topic and I will have to do this repeatedly because they will take turns lobbing disparagement my way and will not provide any scriptural defense of their false doctrines. Or at least that has been the pattern thus far, but hope springs eternal.
On one side we have the exhaustive determinists, all the world is a stage and we just speak our lines, in a play without alternate endings. On the other side, we have Open Theism, which amounts to blasphemy against God Almighty. It declares God makes mistakes, is unable to know the future, and basically lowers God to having the power of an earthly dictator.
Exhaustive determinism is a mistaken view of scripture and cannot be supported without changing the meaning of words to conform to the doctrine. Calvinists are slippery, they say people make choices, and do not clarify that what they mean is people choose from the one alternative compelled by God or past behavior. Thus they redefine choice to mean non-choice. No verse or passage supports exhaustive determinism, but passage after passage says we make choices.
Now to return to topic and I will have to do this repeatedly because they will take turns lobbing disparagement my way and will not provide any scriptural defense of their false doctrines. Or at least that has been the pattern thus far, but hope springs eternal.
On one side we have the exhaustive determinists, all the world is a stage and we just speak our lines, in a play without alternate endings. On the other side, we have Open Theism, which amounts to blasphemy against God Almighty. It declares God makes mistakes, is unable to know the future, and basically lowers God to having the power of an earthly dictator.
Exhaustive determinism is a mistaken view of scripture and cannot be supported without changing the meaning of words to conform to the doctrine. Calvinists are slippery, they say people make choices, and do not clarify that what they mean is people choose from the one alternative compelled by God or past behavior. Thus they redefine choice to mean non-choice. No verse or passage supports exhaustive determinism, but passage after passage says we make choices.
glfredrick
New Member
Fear not, I may have moved into a theology that is closer to God's intended message than yours, and your repeated insinuation that I have moved into Open Theism because I reject Exhaustive Determinism is simply slander, I reject the false part, in my opinion, of both of these doctrines! What part of this is beyond your capacity to understand?
"On the other side, we have Open Theism, which amounts to blasphemy against God Almighty. It declares God makes mistakes, is unable to know the future, and basically lowers God to having the power of an earthly dictator." Exhaustive Determinism also reduces God to a dictator. But Love, and God is Love, does not demand its own way.
"On the other side, we have Open Theism, which amounts to blasphemy against God Almighty. It declares God makes mistakes, is unable to know the future, and basically lowers God to having the power of an earthly dictator." Exhaustive Determinism also reduces God to a dictator. But Love, and God is Love, does not demand its own way.
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Fear not, I may have moved into a theology that is closer to God's intended message than yours, and your repeated insinuation that I have moved into Open Theism because I reject Exhaustive Determinism is simply slander, I reject the false part, in my opinion, of both of these doctrines! What part of this is beyond your capacity to understand?
"On the other side, we have Open Theism, which amounts to blasphemy against God Almighty. It declares God makes mistakes, is unable to know the future, and basically lowers God to having the power of an earthly dictator." Exhaustive Determinism also reduces God to a dictator. But Love, and God is Love, does not demand its own way.
LOL, outa curiosity Van, "how long you been in California"? :smilewinkgrin:
Yet another effort to disparage and shift the topic to me rather than my views, but are they lobbing one ad homenim after another my way? Me thinks they doth protest too much.
Note the implication here, California as everyone to the east knows, is the land of fruits and nuts. We even have a city that is the nut capital of the world.
But as for me, I have fished crystal clear lakes above 11,000 feet and caught "California golden trout." I have prayed and thanked God for the majesty of Yosemite Valley, teaching me about the majesty of God. I have prayed in a grove of the largest trees on earth, each pointing to heaven's light. What a lesson from God. I never got the message that I should belittle and disparage my brothers and sisters in Christ in any of the outdoor or indoor places I have worshiped God in California.
Note the implication here, California as everyone to the east knows, is the land of fruits and nuts. We even have a city that is the nut capital of the world.
But as for me, I have fished crystal clear lakes above 11,000 feet and caught "California golden trout." I have prayed and thanked God for the majesty of Yosemite Valley, teaching me about the majesty of God. I have prayed in a grove of the largest trees on earth, each pointing to heaven's light. What a lesson from God. I never got the message that I should belittle and disparage my brothers and sisters in Christ in any of the outdoor or indoor places I have worshiped God in California.
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What does the Bible actually say about God's knowledge of the future?
One - the premise that God limits His knowledge and therefore has chosen not to know the future exhaustively, does not refer only to the future actions taken autonomously by His creation. It also embraces that God can choose not to know (or utilize) what He does or did know, i.e He forgives our sins and remembers them no more forever.
Two - how does God "limit" his knowledge? First He does not exhaustive predestine everything, i.e. "God ordains [predestines deterministically] whatsoever comes to pass" but He certainly could have chosen to do so. Thus the view does not say God's power to know the future thoughts and actions of His creation is limited, but only that He took at different path.
Three - How does God "know" the future actions of autonomous beings? If He chooses to search their hearts, He knows how they will react given a situation provided they believe "things" from the heart, i.e. are committed to them. For example if He created a situation where a mother could save her baby, and "knows" she would risk everything to save her baby, then He would know that (a) if she is in that situation and (b) her unconditional love for that baby, what she would do in the "future contingent action." This refers to Jesus telling Peter how he will die, and how the folks, had they seen Christ's miracles, that they would have repented.
Four - All of the foregoing does not address the future actions of autonomous creation before they have been created and developed core attributes.
My view here is that God chose not know what they would do because His purpose of creation would only be fulfilled if they repented autonomously. So He did not predestine that choice.
Five - God could know the future contingent actions of living autonomous people by searching their hearts, or He could choose not to search their hearts and not "learn" this information, as illustrated with Abraham and Isaac, where God said "now I know" as opposed to I knew you feared God.
Six - when Jesus said He had other sheep not of this fold, how did He know they were "of God" and not "of the devil"? God had searched the hearts of the people and knew that they were "open" and willing to trust in Christ, if they were cultivated, planted (exposed to the gospel) and watered. Thus He knew the fields could be harvested.
Seven - I must dodge the issue of whether God could know the future non-predestined actions of people before they were created (the Arminian view that God chose individuals who He foresaw would trust in Christ), but what I believe is that the Bible says He did not do so. And I think the idea that if God perfectly knows what will happen, then that logically precludes autonomous choices is correct. But again, I cannot support the view that God could not know the future autonomous choices before creation biblically, since all things are possible with God.
Summary - my view is limited to what I believe can be supported biblically and minimizes speculation on what God does based on conjecture.
One - the premise that God limits His knowledge and therefore has chosen not to know the future exhaustively, does not refer only to the future actions taken autonomously by His creation. It also embraces that God can choose not to know (or utilize) what He does or did know, i.e He forgives our sins and remembers them no more forever.
Two - how does God "limit" his knowledge? First He does not exhaustive predestine everything, i.e. "God ordains [predestines deterministically] whatsoever comes to pass" but He certainly could have chosen to do so. Thus the view does not say God's power to know the future thoughts and actions of His creation is limited, but only that He took at different path.
Three - How does God "know" the future actions of autonomous beings? If He chooses to search their hearts, He knows how they will react given a situation provided they believe "things" from the heart, i.e. are committed to them. For example if He created a situation where a mother could save her baby, and "knows" she would risk everything to save her baby, then He would know that (a) if she is in that situation and (b) her unconditional love for that baby, what she would do in the "future contingent action." This refers to Jesus telling Peter how he will die, and how the folks, had they seen Christ's miracles, that they would have repented.
Four - All of the foregoing does not address the future actions of autonomous creation before they have been created and developed core attributes.
My view here is that God chose not know what they would do because His purpose of creation would only be fulfilled if they repented autonomously. So He did not predestine that choice.
Five - God could know the future contingent actions of living autonomous people by searching their hearts, or He could choose not to search their hearts and not "learn" this information, as illustrated with Abraham and Isaac, where God said "now I know" as opposed to I knew you feared God.
Six - when Jesus said He had other sheep not of this fold, how did He know they were "of God" and not "of the devil"? God had searched the hearts of the people and knew that they were "open" and willing to trust in Christ, if they were cultivated, planted (exposed to the gospel) and watered. Thus He knew the fields could be harvested.
Seven - I must dodge the issue of whether God could know the future non-predestined actions of people before they were created (the Arminian view that God chose individuals who He foresaw would trust in Christ), but what I believe is that the Bible says He did not do so. And I think the idea that if God perfectly knows what will happen, then that logically precludes autonomous choices is correct. But again, I cannot support the view that God could not know the future autonomous choices before creation biblically, since all things are possible with God.
Summary - my view is limited to what I believe can be supported biblically and minimizes speculation on what God does based on conjecture.
glfredrick
New Member
Did God KNOW just what would happen when He told Eve in Genesis 3 that her seed would crush the head of the serpent?