Yes, from before creation, God knew with total certainity that the Lamb of God, born of Mary and thus the seed of Eve, would crush Satan. The issue is not the part of the future that God has predestined, the issue is over whether God has predestined "whatsoever comes to pass" as some interprete the confession. No plan of God can be thwarted.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
The bumpy road to the partial openness of God
- Thread starter Van
- Start date
glfredrick
New Member
Lets consider the idea that we were "in Christ" because God planned to put us "in Christ." Now with this plan in place, before the fall, God did not pass over our sins. So, we must say God passed over our foreseen sins. But then God is taking our characteristics into account, and thus the election is not unconditional.
You see folks what creating a "foreseen" creation does? It allows a person to invent stuff to make actual scripture to no effect. We can be "in Christ" but not actually be "in Christ" we can be sinners, but not actually be sinners. Doctrine built on sand, folk.
Lets consider God having mercy on us. First, before creation, He foresees that we will be sinners and in need of mercy, so He passes over our foreseen sins, and chooses us, but this choice does not bestow mercy upon us, we are in limbo unto God manifests His choice, then the mercy takes effect. That way we can live not as His people without mercy, yet be chosen and predestined to receive mercy. Got it? Right.
A more straightforward view, is God chooses us during our lifetime and places us in Christ. This is our election, this is God passing over our sins, and this is God having mercy upon us. This is what scripture actually says, the other view is how you can use "foreseen" stuff to slice and dice scripture so it fits with false doctrine.
You see folks what creating a "foreseen" creation does? It allows a person to invent stuff to make actual scripture to no effect. We can be "in Christ" but not actually be "in Christ" we can be sinners, but not actually be sinners. Doctrine built on sand, folk.
Lets consider God having mercy on us. First, before creation, He foresees that we will be sinners and in need of mercy, so He passes over our foreseen sins, and chooses us, but this choice does not bestow mercy upon us, we are in limbo unto God manifests His choice, then the mercy takes effect. That way we can live not as His people without mercy, yet be chosen and predestined to receive mercy. Got it? Right.
A more straightforward view, is God chooses us during our lifetime and places us in Christ. This is our election, this is God passing over our sins, and this is God having mercy upon us. This is what scripture actually says, the other view is how you can use "foreseen" stuff to slice and dice scripture so it fits with false doctrine.
I think reconciling God's temporal acts with His atemporal knowledge is indeed a sticky wicket, but for me the epistemological question trumps all that: "How does God know what He knows?"Thankfully, Open Theism has been thoroughly dispatched by good evangelical theology. It presents no palatable suggestions for theological uptake.
As for the OP, I'd be more careful about framing your statements. For instance:
How do you reconcile the atemporality of God in the knowing and seeing with the temporality of acting and doing? Personally I'd like to see a more clarified paragraph that reconciles both action and knowledge.
Also, for those of us who reject the kenosis view the incarnation there are a couple of picky points in your post.
But as BaptistBeliever has aptly noted the more necessary point is how on properly defines time.
Good start, keep thinking out loud. It is helpful.
God's acts in time have no bearing on what He knows eternally.
Scripture says God knows stuff, and if we trust in His word, then God knows stuff.
Lets discuss views that stem from scripture and not the wisdom of men. How about this for starters:
Lets consider the idea that we were "in Christ" because God planned to put us "in Christ." Now with this plan in place, before the fall, God did not pass over our sins. So, we must say God passed over our foreseen sins. But then God is taking our characteristics into account, and thus the election is not unconditional.
You see folks what creating a "foreseen" creation does? It allows a person to invent stuff to make actual scripture to no effect. We can be "in Christ" but not actually be "in Christ" we can be sinners, but not actually be sinners. Doctrine built on sand, folk.
Lets consider God having mercy on us. First, before creation, He foresees that we will be sinners and in need of mercy, so He passes over our foreseen sins, and chooses us, but this choice does not bestow mercy upon us, we are in limbo unto God manifests His choice, then the mercy takes effect. That way we can live not as His people without mercy, yet be chosen and predestined to receive mercy. Got it? Right.
A more straightforward view, is God chooses us during our lifetime and places us in Christ. This is our election, this is God passing over our sins, and this is God having mercy upon us. This is what scripture actually says, the other view is how you can use "foreseen" stuff to slice and dice scripture so it fits with false doctrine.
Lets discuss views that stem from scripture and not the wisdom of men. How about this for starters:
Lets consider the idea that we were "in Christ" because God planned to put us "in Christ." Now with this plan in place, before the fall, God did not pass over our sins. So, we must say God passed over our foreseen sins. But then God is taking our characteristics into account, and thus the election is not unconditional.
You see folks what creating a "foreseen" creation does? It allows a person to invent stuff to make actual scripture to no effect. We can be "in Christ" but not actually be "in Christ" we can be sinners, but not actually be sinners. Doctrine built on sand, folk.
Lets consider God having mercy on us. First, before creation, He foresees that we will be sinners and in need of mercy, so He passes over our foreseen sins, and chooses us, but this choice does not bestow mercy upon us, we are in limbo unto God manifests His choice, then the mercy takes effect. That way we can live not as His people without mercy, yet be chosen and predestined to receive mercy. Got it? Right.
A more straightforward view, is God chooses us during our lifetime and places us in Christ. This is our election, this is God passing over our sins, and this is God having mercy upon us. This is what scripture actually says, the other view is how you can use "foreseen" stuff to slice and dice scripture so it fits with false doctrine.
I don't know if I understand everything you are saying here but I would just point one thing out - if you're going to use the OT Passover imagery to describe NT salvation, it should be noted that the people were passed over, not their sins, per se. Correct me if I'm wrong on that. "When I see the blood I will pass over you". The difference is important. If God passes over our sins, then perhaps it's possible that some of our sins are passed over, and others are not, but if God passes over you, then all of your sins are forgiven.
Predestination works the same way: "For them he foreknew he also did predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ". It doesn't say that God foreknew their sins (although I'm sure he did), it says that He foreknew them. Failing to see the difference can take you not only into the non-calvinist camp but also into the you-can-lose-your-salvation camp.
I was referring to Romans 3:25. Sorry I did not provide the reference, my bad.
But lets back up to the OT Passover imagery. God made four promises (Exodus 6:6-7):
(1) I will bring you out from heavy burdens
(2) I will deliver you from bondage
(3) I will redeem you, and
(4) I will take you for My People.
Now you can read more views of what these represent than you can shake a stick at,
but these ideas seem close to the mark: (1) Sanctification, being set aside, being transferred from the realm of darkness into the Kingdom of Christ. (2) Forgiveness, nailing whatever was against us on the cross. (3) Redemption, becoming a new creature in Christ, with a clear conscious. And (4) Protection, God will keep us forever for we are His children.
Scripture says "whom He foreknew" but that I believe refers to God's promised plan to redeem us, and for whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed - to be made as a brother of the first born from the dead.
So I agree it does not say what was foreknown about those redeemed, but for sure God knew beforehand Christ's blood would provide redemption for anyone spiritually in Christ. No one is redeemed who has not been spiritually placed in Christ.
But lets back up to the OT Passover imagery. God made four promises (Exodus 6:6-7):
(1) I will bring you out from heavy burdens
(2) I will deliver you from bondage
(3) I will redeem you, and
(4) I will take you for My People.
Now you can read more views of what these represent than you can shake a stick at,
but these ideas seem close to the mark: (1) Sanctification, being set aside, being transferred from the realm of darkness into the Kingdom of Christ. (2) Forgiveness, nailing whatever was against us on the cross. (3) Redemption, becoming a new creature in Christ, with a clear conscious. And (4) Protection, God will keep us forever for we are His children.
Scripture says "whom He foreknew" but that I believe refers to God's promised plan to redeem us, and for whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed - to be made as a brother of the first born from the dead.
So I agree it does not say what was foreknown about those redeemed, but for sure God knew beforehand Christ's blood would provide redemption for anyone spiritually in Christ. No one is redeemed who has not been spiritually placed in Christ.