The CALL, Is there One Call to All or not

[Jarthur001]

Wasn't talking to you!

right you are Bob...

Let me tell you guys. The order is not the problem here. You can place the plan before foreknowing or after. It will never work. You can have both happen at the same time...it will still not work.

Have a good day Bob....


In Christ...James

 

[Brother Bob]

I sure hope I do, thanks if you mean it. If God works outside of time what does "order" have to do with it?

 

[Allan]

In other words could we not just say God foreknows and that is it.

James, even you assert that nothing becomes unless God decree it (state it will be How He chooses) and thus set it in motion. There is no difference here. Just because God Knows something WILL happen STILL must have the hand of God set all things in motion or nothing will happen.

As for explaining what I mean about predestination or actually Predestined:
We know the Lexical meaning is:
proorizō: to limit in advance, that is, (figuratively) predetermine:—determine before, ordain, predestinate.

And we know the lexical meaning of its root determine is:
horizō: to mark out or bound (“horizon”), that is, (figuratively) to appoint, decree, specify:—declare, determine, limit, ordain.

This word pertains to action and not persons, as in salvation but the actions are apart of what is involved IN savation though not salvation itself or the decision thereof. Rom 8:29 as an expample

God predetermines what He will DO according to His Purpose and Plan.

With regard to 'what' God knows and why He predestines and ordains, can be best summed up by John Piper:
http://www.desiringgod.org/Resource...en_he_says_that_he_is_a_sevenpoint_Calvinist/

...the best-of-all-possible worlds, means that God governs the course of history so that, in the long run, His glory will be more fully displayed and His people more fully satisfied than would have been the case in any other world. If we look only at the way things are now in the present era of this fallen world, this is not the best-of-all-possible worlds. But if we look at the whole course of history, from creation to redemption to eternity and beyond, and see the entirety of God's plan, it is the best-of-all-possible plans and leads to the best-of-all-possible eternities. And therefore this universe (and the events that happen in it from creation into eternity, taken as a whole) is the best-of-all-possible-worlds.

I do however I place in this theme Gods decesion for mans responsibility for his choices. But this does not detract whatsoever from the what Piper has stated but puts it into a more consistant picture concerning my view point

 

[Jarthur001]

Wasn't talking to you! predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son is what is predestinated and that is to the believers for God sees all and is everlasting to everlasting. If God's plan is for the believers to be conformed to the image of His Son and He foreknows (according to time of man) who will believe then they are at some time predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son which leaves out your pre-chosen.

This will be my last post this morning...I need to go to work.

I see you added more after my post.

If God's plan is for the believers to be conformed to the image of His Son and He foreknows (according to time of man) who will believe then they are at some time predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son which leaves out your pre-chosen.

Where we have the word placed in order...Plan...Foreknowing....predestinated. The way you use plan and predestinated, they are one and the same thing. Which is fine.

But notice where the power is placed. God foreknows and then must make Joe just as God foresaw Joe to be. God foreknows Sally will not believe and must make Sally just as He foresaw Sally to be. God does not have the power in creation to change anything as He wills. God can never save Sally, for what God foresaw must happen. God is locked in to what will happen. Sally goes to hell, joe does not. God cannot stop the rain, because God knows at 1:00 today it will rain...and God can do nothing about it. God is LOCKED into what He foreknows. If He changes it..He did not foreknow the real end. If God foreknow you will die in a fire today, God cannot pull you from the fire, for then God really did not know the end of things.

Foreknowing is the power..that controls all things even God

You have just reduced God to the Maker...and nothing else.

 

[Allan]

Hey, no talking about me while I'm typing. :laugh:

I am very slow today as my 3 yrs old boy (as of last night) as an ear ache in both ears and is miserable.

Allan says God is not locked in to what He foreknows and must only carry it out.

I said NO SUCH THING! What God foreknows IS, how is that no locked into it! What He foreknows is what He will Do and what Man will DO as a whole and in conjuction with His plan. And yes He must carry it out since He has decreed the whole of His knowledge and Counsil WILL Be.

Let me tell you guys. The order is not the problem here. You can place the plan before foreknowing or after. It will never work. You can have both happen at the same time...it will still not work

I agree the order in not the problem here as well. Actually It does, for you, I, and the whole world is living proof. The problem here is assuming we know how God set things into motion and how He specifically determinded. My conjecture is just as good as yours when discussing this since you know as much as I do about How God did actually did it. :laugh:

BOB, Order has nothing to really do with as I stated to James much earlier, that anyones best guess is all it is about what or How IN that moment God DID all He DID. All we know is He foreknow (had knowledge) and predestined (Set actions)

 

[Allan]

God does not have the power in creation to change anything as He wills.

Why would He need to if He is sovereignly ruling over every detail, unless you think God doesn't know EVERYTHING?

But notice where the power is placed. God foreknows and then must make Joe just as God foresaw Joe to be. God foreknows Sally will not believe and must make Sally just as He foresaw Sally to be. God does not have the power in creation to change anything as He wills. God can never save Sally, for what God foresaw must happen. God is locked in to what will happen. Sally goes to hell, joe does not. God cannot stop the rain, because God knows at 1:00 today it will rain...and God can do nothing about it. God is LOCKED into what He foreknows. If He changes it..He did not foreknow the real end. If God foreknow you will die in a fire today, God cannot pull you from the fire, for then God really did not know the end of things.

Foreknowing is the power..that controls all things even God

You have just reduced God to the Maker...and nothing else.

Now you make absolutely no sense. The Calvinist believes God in this same way. God decreed it and so it will be! This view I am sharing does not limit God, as I stated previously, but shows the absoluteness of Gods knowing all things. How, Because He also knows all those times and situations that need His intervention and moving and determined what He IS to do there that all things in Him are fulfilled.

Gods foreknowing is the bones so to speak that structure all we see played out.
It is His decision of intervetion and moving with in creation to give power and flesh to His plan.

God is the Creator, but He is God our creator full of WISDOM and POWER!

 

[Jarthur001]

Allan,

One last one...then I need to go. This will be short.

James, even you assert that nothing becomes unless God decree it (state it will be How He chooses) and thus set it in motion. There is no difference here. Just because God Knows something WILL happen STILL must have the hand of God set all things in motion or nothing will happen.

Indeed I do believe in Gods decrees.
and..
One way to look at it....is there is no difference. I'll go into this more later. My point has been...changing the meaning of "foreknowing"...does not help. I do not care how much you work with it...you will end saying the same thing as election.

As for explaining what I mean about predestination or actually Predestined:
We know the Lexical meaning is:
prooriz?: to limit in advance, that is, (figuratively) predetermine:—determine before, ordain, predestinate.

And we know the lexical meaning of its root determine is:
horiz?: to mark out or bound (“horizon”), that is, (figuratively) to appoint, decree, specify:—declare, determine, limit, ordain.

right you are...This places the power back in Gods hands.

This word pertains to action and not persons, as in salvation but the actions are apart of what is involved IN savation though not salvation itself or the decision thereof. Rom 8:29 as an expample

All actions have to do with people. Grass grows. Grass has no meaning to man unless we see, smell, taste, hear it blow in the wind, and/or feel it

God predetermines what He will DO according to His Purpose and Plan.

Amen to that Brother. It is the Plan of God in control...right?

As to Piper...Piper is good....but I do not agree with everything he says. I will read your link later.

Have a good day...


In Christ...James
********************

Added later..

This statement from above..
you will end saying the same thing as election.

I know i have yet to prove. But I thought I would give you something to get ya going while I'm gone today.

 

[HankD]

Dead men do not hear

Lazarus did and he came forth at Jesus command.

Can this be a physical model of a spiritual truth, that even the dead can hear the words of Jesus Christ and those who hear and respond are the "elect"?

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:


John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

​

 

[Allan]

Enjoy James (work that is)
I believe with all my Heart that I am chosen, and ordained, and Elect!

Just not in the Calvinistic sense.

 

[webdog]

All actions have to do with people. Grass grows. Grass has no meaning to man unless we see, smell, taste, hear it blow in the wind, and/or feel it

You eat your grass, James?

 

[whatever]

Lazarus did and he came forth at Jesus command.

Can this be a physical model of a spiritual truth, that even the dead can hear the words of Jesus Christ and those who hear and respond are the "elect"?

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:


John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

​

I'll ask you what others have refused to answer, then. Are you saying that it is possible for the dead to hear God's call and choose to stay dead? The Bible says that all who hear His voice shall come forth. I don't see how you could hold to any sort of deterministic choice on the part of man in light of this passage.

 

[webdog]

The Bible says that all who hear His voice shall come forth.

Exactly...but the Bible does not say that those who don't come forth can't hear. Calvinism assumes the inverse and converse of statments, which is wrong.

 

[whatever]

Exactly...but the Bible does not say that those who don't come forth can't hear. Calvinism assumes the inverse and converse of statments, which is wrong.

Brother, your anti-Calvinism is just getting in the way of your thinking, and making you say silly things. "All" means "all", you know. If all who hear his voice do come forth then there are none who hear his voice but do not come forth.

 

[Brother Bob]

Brother, your anti-Calvinism is just getting in the way of your thinking, and making you say silly things. "All" means "all", you know. If all who hear his voice do come forth then there are none who hear his voice but do not come forth.

In this case they had made their choice before going in the grave, coming forth is just fulfilling that choice they made.

 

[Allan]

Of course the dead can hear and they will come forth.
AND Whatever: your accertion that NNE will answer it is incorrect as it is contended frequently on BB and even on the very thread!

When you state and the dead will come forth...You are speaking of a statement where Christ is speaking as Lord of All - God Himself the righteous Judge that ALL now know and tremble.

In this time where man can reject or believe but there is coming a time where every knee will bow and every tongue confess the Jesus Christ is LORD, to the glory of God the Father. - I LOVE that verse.

And I have answered your assumption as well, Yes they can choose to stay in a state of rebellion, now. But there is coming a time when All will appear before Him as Saviour or Judge.

The whole point in this thread was to establish discussion on the very fact you state. Is there one Call that reaches to everyone, and If no why the need for two types of callings - one effectual and the other feeble as in being set out for no purpose. Now if you would be honest you to would state there is only ONE calling and that is what the general call is - It reaches those whom it was intended but is useless to those it is not. There is no general AND effectual. I maintain this since effectual is a word used 6 times in the NT and NEVER in context of calling but ministry.

 

[whatever]

In this case they had made their choice before going in the grave, coming forth is just fulfilling that choice they made.

But do they choose to come forth to fulfill their destiny or does someone else choose that they will come forth to fulfill their destiny? That is the relevant point for this discussion - how does it work when the dead are called to life?

 

[Jarthur001]

We have been over this just a few pages back....

24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

This is hearing the gospel of salvation. Notice all they that HEAR shall live. Do all men that you preach to, go to heaven? Now notice the small word in the next verse.."also". This changes the subject from salvation to judgment/resurrection. At the resurrection ALL men will come forth.

Quote:
27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

verse 28 has nothing to do with believeing in Christ. At this point folks it is all over with. This is the call to judgment where ALL will hear. Lets keep things in context.

 

[whatever]

Now if you would be honest you to would state there is only ONE calling and that is what the general call is - It reaches those whom it was intended but is useless to those it is not. There is no general AND effectual. I maintain this since effectual is a word used 6 times in the NT and NEVER in context of calling but ministry.

I guess I will remain dishonest then. Sheesh. I expect stooping that low from some here, but not you.

Otherwise, I doubt there's much more to be said. I pointed you to Paul's statement that those who God called He also justified, and you said you had covered that in your OP, but I still cannot see it. There are none who are called, in the sense that Paul meant, who are not justified. Effectual calling is as clear as can be to me.

 

[Jarthur001]

Now if you would be honest you to would state there is only ONE calling and that is what the general call is - It reaches those whom it was intended but is useless to those it is not. There is no general AND effectual. I maintain this since effectual is a word used 6 times in the NT and NEVER in context of calling but ministry.

humm ...now this is good

I like how you handle this verse in a honest, non bias, way.

2 Peter 1:2-3 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue.

oh well...

 

[Brother Bob]

But do they choose to come forth to fulfill their destiny or does someone else choose that they will come forth to fulfill their destiny? That is the relevant point for this discussion - how does it work when the dead are called to life?

choosing or not choosing is over at this point for it is "judgement time".

2 Peter 1:2-3 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue.

oh well...

If you are saved you were called but that does not mean the unsaved didn't receive a call also but rejected it.