All depends, as one persons view would be opposite of another!Free will - the opposite of "not free-will"
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The Calvinist Gospel
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Alan Gross
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1 "Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received,
that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried,
and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
THAT is the 'definition' of 'The Gospel'.
"the gospel" =
"that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried,
and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,"
= "by which also you are saved,"
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
A.) The Gospel must be Preached.
B.) The Word of The Lord must Come to the sinner, in Conviction.
C.) Repentance of the sinner's sins must be Wrought, by God,
D.) And Faith must be Granted, by God, toward The Savior.
Those items included in The A.)-D.) list, above suggesting How God saves a soul
must all take place and do take place in every instance of Salvation, either described or implied, in The Bible,
BEFORE THE 1-6 list of 'confessing' and 'believing' can take place.
The soul Must Be BORN AGAIN, prior to these Roman Road, 'easy believism', "Repeat After Me", techniques, OR Religious societies are FILLED with LOST PEOPLE.
This 1-6 list IS NOT, IN ANY WAY, A DESCRIPTION of The Salvation Experience.
Unless, a soul is Saved prior to "confessing", (because they 'think' it a good idea)
& "believing", (by consent, only) they are still lost.
1-5 do not indicate anything the soul is personally Saved from.
3. Jesus Did Not Die for 'our sins'.
Jesus Died for the sins of His people. Matthew 1:21.
6. Gives us "hearing". That hearing A.) OF THE GOSPEL that is of God
leads to:
The Word of The Lord that must Come to the sinner, B.) in Conviction (hearing),
C.) Repentance of the sinner's sins must be Wrought, by God,
(regarding what they have Been Enabled to hear),
D.) And Faith must be Granted, by God, toward The Savior.
Genuine Repentance and Faith are Given Together, by God.
This list includes 3-4, which is The Gospel, but why did Jesus Do that?
Because "everyone is a sinner". No.
The Individual soul Must Be Enabled to Become Aware that they are Lost, BY THE HOLY SPIRIT MAKING THE ETERNAL WORD OF GOD CONVICT THEIR SOUL of THEIR SINS AGAINST GOD, PERSONALLY,
before there is any reason or need to be Saved,
except 'becoming a Christian' with a false profession.
The World, The Religious World, and The World of 'Christians'
are full of lost souls with false professions.
The Devil professes this list, except for number 6,
and has not been Convicted, or Repented, or Been Given Faith.
Neither have lost people who follow lists that do not include WHY CHRIST DIED.
FOR THAT LOST SOUL'S PERSONAL SIN, if they have been Shown it,
by The Holy Spirit (hearing, #6)
THAT IS A PERSONAL EXPERIENCE of PERSONAL SALVATION.
I hope this list was in jest, or "something".
- I need to confess that Jesus is God.
- I need to believe that God raised Jesus from the dead.
- Christ died for our sins.
- Christ was buried and raised.
- we have to believe foolishness to be saved.
- After hearing and believing, God seals us with the Holy Spirit and we inherit "something"
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Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Election is Unconditional.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Very close. Try this:
If God likes you then you will not continue as you were, and will be saved.
If God hates you then you will continue as you were and be damned.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Free will - the opposite of "not free-will"
The definition of 'Free Will' is that the lost soul WILLS to love darkness rather than the Light and WILL NOT COME to Jesus that they might have Eternal Life, because they all will 'judge themselves unworthy of Eternal Life.
The sinner must be Made Willing in The Day of God's Power,
because Salvation is not of him that 'wills'.
An individual soul, exercising their Free will is the enemy of God, Hates God, and will Go to Hell, forever, in that state, AND DIE THE SECOND DEATH, with their FIRST.) SOUL BEING DEAD and SECOND). THEIR BODY BEING DEAD,
UNLESS GOD PLACES A DIFFERENT, SPIRITUALLY and DIVINELY IMPLANTED BORN AGAIN, REGENERATED, ETERNALLY LIVING WILL INTO THEIR SOUL and SAVES THEIR SOUL.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Mostly “or something”. Barry Johnson had complained that the OP contained NOTHING of the Gospel message and listed several verses that constituted “the gospel”. Items 1-6 listed above are a verse by verse list of the points raised in the gospel as identified by Barry’s post (listing those verses as the gospel).
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Exactly. Right. Thank you.
"An individual soul, exercising their Free will is the enemy of God, Hates God,"
^Conceded that indeed we have a free will. When you make the CHOICE not to exercise it THAT TOO is FREE WILL.
Its like saying its a sin to believe one is a space ship and get upset when folks warp around the galaxy. Rather saying there is no free will at all.
"UNLESS GOD PLACES A DIFFERENT, SPIRITUALLY and DIVINELY IMPLANTED BORN AGAIN, REGENERATED, ETERNALLY LIVING WILL INTO THEIR SOUL and SAVES THEIR SOUL."
Its funny how this needs to be explained to the choir repeatedly. Else they can't get their own wrong story straight.
This would be the best proof of fall.. Please I invite any Calvinist to give us the story when you were NO WHERE NEAR SEEKING GOD, Minding your own buisness reading the funnies in the newspaper, having a seething hatred of God, hatred of neighbor and brothers and sisters........................And then all the sudden ZAP TULIP was downloaded into your brain wirelessly by God.
Never happens..... Instead its the same ol' bad person hitting rock bottom and finally growing a conscience.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
No one believes without hearing, provocative brainchild.
No one hears without a Preacher Preaching THE GOSPEL.
You Must Be Born Again.
https://www.grace-ebooks.com/library/Jerome Zanchius/The Doctrine of Absolute Predestination.pdf
Sounds like a person must make the choice to HEAR the gospel, even if not understood like a magical incantation.
Too much synergism.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Lost people hate God and Preaching is stupid and foolishness to them.
You might want to figure out that The Holy Spirit is Big Enough to Find and Bring the Message of The Gospel as Part of God's Eternal Plan of Salvation, to every soul Jesus Saves.
Lets take a look at one of the assertions from the Heidelberg Catechism of 1563.
1) In the question, all people refers to every person who has existed.
2) True faith is not defined in the references, just that everyone believing into Christ is saved.
3) The result or consequence of Adam's sin is that every person has been made sinners. No reference to Romans 5:19 was listed.
4) "Grafted in" actually refers to Gentiles, in the Romans reference. A better word would be "placed" into Christ, covering both Jews and Gentiles.
5) The referenced verses did not address "accepting" all Christ's benefits. If we are placed into Christ, we receive all the blessings of the heavenly, Ephesians 1:3.
A far more accurate statement would be "No, only those individuals who are placed into Christ on the basis of God crediting their faith as righteousness are saved and receive all the blessings of salvation."
Q. Are all people then saved through Christ just as they were lost through Adam?
A. No. Only those are saved who through true faith are grafted into Christ and accept all his benefits.[1]
1 Matt. 7:14; John 3:16, 18, 36; Rom. 11:16-21
A. No. Only those are saved who through true faith are grafted into Christ and accept all his benefits.[1]
1 Matt. 7:14; John 3:16, 18, 36; Rom. 11:16-21
1) In the question, all people refers to every person who has existed.
2) True faith is not defined in the references, just that everyone believing into Christ is saved.
3) The result or consequence of Adam's sin is that every person has been made sinners. No reference to Romans 5:19 was listed.
4) "Grafted in" actually refers to Gentiles, in the Romans reference. A better word would be "placed" into Christ, covering both Jews and Gentiles.
5) The referenced verses did not address "accepting" all Christ's benefits. If we are placed into Christ, we receive all the blessings of the heavenly, Ephesians 1:3.
A far more accurate statement would be "No, only those individuals who are placed into Christ on the basis of God crediting their faith as righteousness are saved and receive all the blessings of salvation."
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Psalm 5:5, "The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity"
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
I didn't think that the Calvinist had a Gospel mesage to preach, since in their theology all the elect will be saved regardless!
Just for fun, I thought I would post the GOOD NEWS from a classic REFORMED (Calvinist) source in response to the implied challenge in the above quote. I don’t really care what happens to the topic after that ... I will have made the only point that I wanted to make.
Q. According to God’s righteous judgment we deserve punishment both now and in eternity: how then can we escape this punishment and return to God’s favor?
A. God requires that his justice be satisfied.[1] Therefore the claims of this justice must be paid in full, either by ourselves or by another.[2]
1 Ex. 23:7; Rom. 2:1-11
2 Isa. 53:11; Rom. 8:3-4
Q. Can we make this payment ourselves?
A. Certainly not. Actually, we increase our debt every day.[1]
1 Matt. 6:12; Rom. 2:4-5
Q. Can another creature—any at all—pay this debt for us?
A. No. To begin with, God will not punish any other creature for what a human is guilty of.[1] Furthermore, no mere creature can bear the weight of God’s eternal wrath against sin and deliver others from it.[2]
1 Ezek. 18:4, 20; Heb. 2:14-18
2 Ps. 49:7-9; 130:3
Q. What kind of mediator and deliverer should we look for then?
A. One who is a true[1] and righteous[2] human, yet more powerful than all creatures, that is, one who is also true God.[3]
1 Rom. 1:3; 1 Cor. 15:21; Heb. 2:17
2 Isa. 53:9; 2 Cor. 5:21; Heb. 7:26
3 Isa. 7:14; 9:6; Jer. 23:6; John 1:1
Q. Why must the mediator be a true and righteous human?
A. God’s justice demands that human nature, which has sinned, must pay for sin;[1] but a sinful human could never pay for others.[2]
1 Rom. 5:12, 15; 1 Cor. 15:21; Heb. 2:14-16
2 Heb. 7:26-27; 1 Pet. 3:18
Q. Why must the mediator also be true God?
A. So that the mediator, by the power of his divinity, might bear the weight of God’s wrath in his humanity and earn for us and restore to us righteousness and life.[1]
1 Isa. 53; John 3:16; 2 Cor. 5:21
Q. Then who is this mediator—true God and at the same time a true and righteous human?
A. Our Lord Jesus Christ,[1] who was given to us to completely deliver us and make us right with God.[2]
1 Matt. 1:21-23; Luke 2:11; 1 Tim. 2:5
2 1 Cor. 1:30
Q. How do you come to know this?
A. The holy gospel tells me. God began to reveal the gospel already in Paradise;[1] later God proclaimed it by the holy patriarchs[2] and prophets[3] and foreshadowed it by the sacrifices and other ceremonies of the law;[4] and finally God fulfilled it through his own beloved Son.[5]
1 Gen. 3:15
2 Gen. 22:18; 49:10
3 Isa. 53; Jer. 23:5-6; Mic. 7:18-20; Acts 10:43; Heb. 1:1-2
4 Lev. 1-7; John 5:46; Heb. 10:1-10
5 Rom. 10:4; Gal. 4:4-5; Col. 2:17
Q. Are all people then saved through Christ just as they were lost through Adam?
A. No. Only those are saved who through true faith are grafted into Christ and accept all his benefits.[1]
1 Matt. 7:14; John 3:16, 18, 36; Rom. 11:16-21
Q. What is true faith?
A. True faith is not only a sure knowledge by which I hold as true all that God has revealed to us in Scripture;[1] it is also a wholehearted trust,[2] which the Holy Spirit creates in me[3] by the gospel,[4] that God has freely granted, not only to others but to me also,[5] forgiveness of sins, eternal righteousness, and salvation.[6] These are gifts of sheer grace, granted solely by Christ’s merit.[7]
1 John 17:3, 17; Heb. 11:1-3; James 2:19
2 Rom. 4:18-21; 5:1; 10:10; Heb. 4:14-16
3 Matt. 16:15-17; John 3:5; Acts 16:14
4 Rom. 1:16; 10:17; 1 Cor. 1:21
5 Gal. 2:20
6 Rom. 1:17; Heb. 10:10
7 Rom. 3:21-26; Gal. 2:16; Eph. 2:8-10
(from the Heidelberg Catechism of 1563)
This is what I used to teach my daughter about the “Theology” of God and what was important to know.
How we live our lives and handle the everyday trials and triumphs is how we taught her about the reality of living in Covenant with God and the Lordship of Jesus Christ. That is my “Calvinist Gospel”.
Make of it what you will ... I am not YOUR servant. (Rom 14:4)
This very critical approach causes problems in my heart. I am not a calvanist, but I can see how unrestrained and unbalanced these conclusions can be created. The heart is lost and desperately wicked, everything it turns to leads to darkness.
This is very true, if the heart is born alone, and God never touches anything in ones life. Like a depressed patient who denies there was ever any joy or life in their life, ever. When God arrives so does the light and hope, when the cross makes us conscious of eternal love, a spark of hope is lit. To honour the hope and the gift, nothing of faith or the gift of life, the seed planted in our hearts must be mentioned or the growth of a relationship and reality in our beings.
My caution is because all that is quoted is true, but there are other perspectives and realities and God is at work in us to bring us to be blameless, Holy, a people worthy of Christ.
In my worst moments, no one loves me, it is all a cynical joke, and in my best I am blessed by my friends and family and all the free support I am given. Through it all we are Gods workmanship, His purposes and intentions to fulfil.
God bless you
Free will - the opposite of "not free-will"
Free will is a difficult term. Imagine you have a decision, to go left or right at a junction.
On either side there are incentives to go either way. Let us suppose it is food, and I am hungry.
Now if this balance is just an equation, and the bigger value gets the decision, this is not free will, but a command equation that is just followed no matter the situation. But if you remove the decision making and one can invent ones own value system and way of measuring incentive. You could then choose layers of decision making and choice and conclusions.
It appears this is the free will we have. We are not bound to any frame of reference, but can build our own, or edit that which we are using to make a choice. Determinist would though suggest it is actually all a delusion, and the overriding decision making is done outside our control, we just think we chose. And certainly backwards projection of events, people do this, over things they have no control over, because the idea we have no control is more scary than we can choose.
I believe we have free will, but unfortunately most of our decisions are based on preprogrammed incentives and rewards, and past experience, so much of what we do is automatic. We can change our automatic reactions, but it takes time. And the weird realisation is we are not this free rolling individual but a series of learnt interactions and responses which may be good or maybe destructive. Jesus appears to be offering us a new foundation, a new basis of learning and growth, where we become the fruit of His Kingdom and words, but this is not free will as often we think about the choice between left and right. It is so much more and much more profound.
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