Barry Johnson
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For Calvinists ?
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The Calvinist Gospel
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George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Where did it contain the gospel (death, burial, resurrection of Christ to save sinners)?
If it did, fine.
Nope, If the Lord chooses to save ANY lost sinner, that is highest grace!
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Everyone does choose.
Without the "gift" of "by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast", everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed and so makes his natural choice according to his fallen mind, tainted soul and the desires of his flesh.
Those whom the father has given Him are His lost sheep, and his lost sheep will choose as well. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."
Their destiny is never in my hands. As Steve Brown says, I am just one beggar telling another beggar where I found bread. The eternal destiny and transforming heart portion of the job belongs to God. If I knew who would ultimately be saved, I could be more efficient, but God has not shared his omniscience with me. So I just have to use a shotgun and whatever sticks, sticks. Whatever don't, don't. That's God's business and not mine.
How many people have YOU saved (not how many has God saved through you). If the answer is none, then we are equal on that score.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
For anyone who believes the Bible
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
He can't "choose".
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Is this a MATRIX or a Zeno's Paradox on Motion argument for reality being an illusion, or do you advocate RADICAL supralapsarianism where all people are puppets?
Given information, everyone must either react to that information or not react to that information.
Rocks can't choose.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
John 3:16 covers that, does it not?
Sai
Well-Known Member
and you think that you know more than God Incarnate, the Lord Jesus Christ!!! It is He who says, "And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: REPENT, and BELIEVE the gospel" (Mark 1:15). And, again Jesus says, "And that repentance for remission of sins should be preached in His Name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem" (Luke 24:47)
And don't be so rude and pomopus, in saying that I might not be saved!!! WHO do you think you are to question my salvation? IF you are a believer, you are a DISGRACE to the Body of Jesus Christ!!!
I doubt your salvation based upon your insistence for works.
Joy unspeakable full of glory
They obviously do not indicate the Holy Spirit "creates" the trust in us. Rather the Holy Spirit reveals truth such as inspiring God's word, and we choose to put our trust in that truth or not.
1) revealed does not mean created
2) created is not found in any of those verses.
3) being born anew to enter the kingdom is non-germane
The verses do not indicate the Holy Spirit "creates" the trust in us. Rather the Holy Spirit reveals truth such as inspiring God's word, and we choose to put our trust in that truth or not.
I did.
The questions, answers and footnoted scripture verses came directly from the 16th Century Catechism. When I first read it, I took nobody's word for it and looked up every verse to see just how "fast and loose" they might be playing with the context. What I discovered is that each verse (alone and within its context) tends to support one small part of each answer. I suggest picking one answer and looking up the verses keynoted for that answer and you will get a quick sense of how and why they were using those verses.
You wrote "God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe, he says".
God also says "God, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)" and goes on to expound on this grace by adding "by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God".
... which makes me want to shout Soli Deo gloria!
You just have to love you Calvinists, atpollard, although your definitions of words, such as faith, is different from how anyone else in the whole wide world defines it. You define it as the gift of God. This throws the whole Bible to a 45 degree angle.You get the great doctrine of grace wrong also. You either forget or do not know that this epistle was written to reveal a mystery that was only here made known in writing. What is the mystery? Well, the nutshell verse that states what the mystery is can be found in Eph 3:6 and in this context. The gentiles were added to the body of Christ which had already been established though the Jewish believers for some time before the gentiles were made partakers with them in the spiritual privileges of this body. Since there are two different people groups that make up this body, albeit their inclusion into it began at different times, and there are two different divine principles at work here in it's formation, the principle of promise for the Jews and the principle of grace for the gentiles, this will at once answer the question of Paul's usage of the pronouns in these chapters and verses. Just as an exercise I challenge you to begin at, say, chapter 2:1 and go through the whole chapter 2 and note when Paul uses pronouns that includes himself as a Jewish Christian and how and when he uses pronouns that distinguish gentile Christians. Look at words like "together" and notice in verse 8 as well as other verses that he does not say, "by grace are we saved," even though we know he was saved, but he said "by grace are ye saved," meaning ye gentiles are saved by grace.
Paul goes on to tell us why our gentile salvation is by grace through faith in verses 10-12 and it is because of the 5 things that gentiles were without in time past. They did not have any covenant promises with God that secured salvation for them. Therefore, his making us equal with the Jewish believers as children of God in Christ is a matter of his grace.
You Calvinists say God must infuse faith into a sinner after he regenerates him because he does not have the capacity of intelligence, reason, and will and therefore cannot make a choice on his own to believe. However, Eph 1:13 defines faith as trust and puts salvation as being after the gentiles heard the gospel of Christ. Faith in that verse is a result of intelligent reasoning and a willing act of trust. This is far removed from your great error concerning the nature of man, God, and faith.
I know if you will read these verses carefully and believe the meaning of words in their traditional and commonly accepted definitions you will agree that you have not seen the full picture.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Were Rahab and Ruth (both gentiles) part of the OT "Body of Christ" alongside Abraham, Moses and David?
Was the Samaritan woman at the well a Jew or Gentile?
(I may have a 'clue' about the mystery.
)
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Not much of an exegesis, but it will have to serve.
1) the Divinity of Christ was revealed to Peter by SPIRIT and not by FLESH (according to that scripture), so "we choose to put our trust in that truth or not" is excluded as a possibility since that would be of "flesh", but the "Holy Spirit creates trust" is supported since that would be an action by 'Spirit' rather than 'flesh'.
2) Neither is Newton's theory on Planetary Motion or proof of the Trinity. So what IS found in those verses that relates to the statement in the Catechism that it is alleged to support?
3) That "one must be born of the SPIRIT" established the Third Person of the Godhead as the prime operator in entering the kingdom (like revealing truth and creating trust), making it germane.
Where is the scripture support for "we choose to put our trust in that truth* or not"?
*"that truth" = "Jesus is God" (the truth revealed to Peter and that Lydia's heart was opened to)
Just for the record, do you have scripture that clearly refutes the claim "True faith is a wholehearted trust that the Holy Spirit creates in me" on the basis that the Holy Spirit does not create trust in people?
It seems only fair to offer you an opportunity to present a scriptural rebuttal.
Jesus has bought the rights to all mankind, all flesh jn17:2
He gives life to those the Father has given Him ,no more,no less.
He gives life to those the Father has given Him ,no more,no less.
you do not understand 1 cor15:1-4. twice it says according to the scriptures. plural.
1cor15 gives the historic facts of the cross,and ascension...
The gospel if found all throughout the scriptures.Gal.3:8 is not the gospel according to your posting.It is in scripture, both here and in luke 1:68-73.
Were Rahab and Ruth (both gentiles) part of the OT "Body of Christ" alongside Abraham, Moses and David?
Was the Samaritan woman at the well a Jew or Gentile?
(I may have a 'clue' about the mystery.
No, no, atpollard. The mere fact that you asked those questions reveals that you have no idea how to understand God's unfolding drama of redemption. There is no body of Christ anywhere in the 4000 years of OT history and revelation. Rahab or Ruth nor any other proselyte were placed into the body of Christ. Neither were Abraham, Moses, or David, or John the Baptist, in the body of Christ because the body of Christ was not being formed before his coming and his crucifixion and resurrection and ascension. That is not what the OT is about.
Quoting from what seems to be one of your favorite chapters from the scriptures, Ep 2, I offer this wisdom about gentiles in time past. This time past concerning gentiles is from Acts 10 when gentiles were historically included in the church of Jesus Christ and going backward to Abraham in Ge 12. Here is 5 things about gentiles during that time;
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were
1) without Christ, being
2) aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and
3) strangers from the covenants of promise,
4} having no hope, and
5) without God in the world:
That is a record from scriptures concerning gentiles before NOW. Following is what is happening to gentiles now that could not have happened in time past;
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Note: "both" is speaking of Jews and gentiles. The OT does not teach one singular salvation for gentiles as it does to Israel. This is the mystery of the church of Jesus Christ.
However, this letter is written by the special appointed apostle to the gentiles to explain the good news of God that he has included gentiles in the formation of the church, the body of Christ, that he is forming during this time with the small number of Israelites that have believed during the time his nation Israel is in blindness and rebellion against him. This church he is forming is likened to Christ, the husband and the church as the bride of Christ and he says all that is said of the marriage union in chapter 5 of this epistle is to applied to this theology of Jesus Christ and his church. The mystery part of this theology is that gentiles are included as equal to the Jews in this body. All are born again children of God and are joint heirs with Christ of an heavenly inheritance.
This is no way cancels the covenants that God has made to his people Israel and the promise of blessing to future generations of gentiles through them as stated in the Abrahamic covenant. All God has said to them will come to pass on the earth just like he promised. However, the church of Jesus Christ has a completion and promises of rapture all it's own that are separate from Jews and gentiles who are not in the church, that is "in Christ" by faith.
The greatest type of the events of this age is Adam and Eve. God put his son Adam to a deep sleep and opened up his side and created Eve from his body. That is how the church is formed today. From the wounded side of the Lord Jesus Christ. We are of his body and we are his bride and, according to Col 1 we will soon be presented to him at the marriage supper of the Lamb.
Calvinists are kept in the dark and can never understand the truths God desires to teach. The only hope for Calvinists is to escape and forsake it and to bend the knee to our Lord Jesus Christ. He will receive anyone who repents and comes to him in faith. Faith is a human principle. It is an exercise of the will.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
I respectfully disagree.
(PS. My reason has nothing to do with Soteriology).
Dave G
Well-Known Member
After this you'll need to get baptized, attend church faithfully, "tithe" a minimum of 10% of your income, and do a whole lot of other things that are in the "fine print"...
Like living a holy lifestyle, remaining separate from the world and its ways, continuing in the faith, etc.
But, once one realizes that they are not under the Law but under grace, AND that one cannot do the things they would do for the Lord ( Romans 7:14-25 ) except by the power of the Spirit in them, it becomes apparent how free they actually are...
Free to approach His throne boldly, because they have the grace of God bestowed upon them through no effort of their own ( which we could never attain anyway, only Christ could and did. )
The Lord does not work according to "formulas"...
and He does not grant people favor based on their actions, but rather the other way around;
The actions of His people are reflective of the work that He has begun ( and will continue ) in them ( Ephesians 2:10, Philippians 2:13, 1 Peter 1:5, etc ).
To me, this is plainly evident in places like 1 Corinthians 1:18-32, Matthew 11:25 and Matthew 13 / Mark 4 / Luke 8 that develop the Lord revealing His truth to those He wishes, and hiding His truth from those He wishes.
God's favor is something that He bestows on someone, and they then receive what they need to walk uprightly from Him.
The "Calvinist" Gospel is, in it's core form, everything found in 1 Corinthians 15:1-6, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, the Psalms and prophets, etc..., and is expanded upon in the books of Romans, Ephesians, Colossians, Philippians, Thessalonians and anywhere else that doctrine is found.
May the Lord be pleased to reveal this, in the details, to everyone reading this.
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