Yet another "taint so" post.
Total Spiritual inability has been shown to be bogus, recall Matthew 23:13?
"created trust" by irresistible grace is a fiction, not found in scripture.
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The Calvinist Gospel
- Thread starter atpollard
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Total Spiritual inability has been shown to be bogus, recall Matthew 23:13?
"created trust" by irresistible grace is a fiction, not found in scripture.
Reformed1689
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Reformed1689
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atpollard
Well-Known Member
Even if you are going to ignore my support, you should at least defend your own position:
Where is the scripture support for "we choose to put our trust in that truth* or not"?
*"that truth" = "Jesus is God" (the truth revealed to Peter and that Lydia's heart was opened to)
Do you have scripture that clearly refutes the claim "True faith is a wholehearted trust that the Holy Spirit creates in me" on the basis that the Holy Spirit does not create trust in people?
It seems only fair to offer you an opportunity to present a scriptural rebuttal.
But the scripture you quoted......... 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
Shouldn't it be backwards? you get salvation and righteousness first and as a result they will believe and as a result mouth will confess?
Its like you gave us a cheat sheet for dismissing your theology.
Just for fun, I thought I would post the GOOD NEWS from a classic REFORMED (Calvinist) source in response to the implied challenge in the above quote. I don’t really care what happens to the topic after that ... I will have made the only point that I wanted to make.
Q. According to God’s righteous judgment we deserve punishment both now and in eternity: how then can we escape this punishment and return to God’s favor?
A. God requires that his justice be satisfied.[1] Therefore the claims of this justice must be paid in full, either by ourselves or by another.[2]
1 Ex. 23:7; Rom. 2:1-11
2 Isa. 53:11; Rom. 8:3-4
Q. Can we make this payment ourselves?
A. Certainly not. Actually, we increase our debt every day.[1]
1 Matt. 6:12; Rom. 2:4-5
Q. Can another creature—any at all—pay this debt for us?
A. No. To begin with, God will not punish any other creature for what a human is guilty of.[1] Furthermore, no mere creature can bear the weight of God’s eternal wrath against sin and deliver others from it.[2]
1 Ezek. 18:4, 20; Heb. 2:14-18
2 Ps. 49:7-9; 130:3
Q. What kind of mediator and deliverer should we look for then?
A. One who is a true[1] and righteous[2] human, yet more powerful than all creatures, that is, one who is also true God.[3]
1 Rom. 1:3; 1 Cor. 15:21; Heb. 2:17
2 Isa. 53:9; 2 Cor. 5:21; Heb. 7:26
3 Isa. 7:14; 9:6; Jer. 23:6; John 1:1
Q. Why must the mediator be a true and righteous human?
A. God’s justice demands that human nature, which has sinned, must pay for sin;[1] but a sinful human could never pay for others.[2]
1 Rom. 5:12, 15; 1 Cor. 15:21; Heb. 2:14-16
2 Heb. 7:26-27; 1 Pet. 3:18
Q. Why must the mediator also be true God?
A. So that the mediator, by the power of his divinity, might bear the weight of God’s wrath in his humanity and earn for us and restore to us righteousness and life.[1]
1 Isa. 53; John 3:16; 2 Cor. 5:21
Q. Then who is this mediator—true God and at the same time a true and righteous human?
A. Our Lord Jesus Christ,[1] who was given to us to completely deliver us and make us right with God.[2]
1 Matt. 1:21-23; Luke 2:11; 1 Tim. 2:5
2 1 Cor. 1:30
Q. How do you come to know this?
A. The holy gospel tells me. God began to reveal the gospel already in Paradise;[1] later God proclaimed it by the holy patriarchs[2] and prophets[3] and foreshadowed it by the sacrifices and other ceremonies of the law;[4] and finally God fulfilled it through his own beloved Son.[5]
1 Gen. 3:15
2 Gen. 22:18; 49:10
3 Isa. 53; Jer. 23:5-6; Mic. 7:18-20; Acts 10:43; Heb. 1:1-2
4 Lev. 1-7; John 5:46; Heb. 10:1-10
5 Rom. 10:4; Gal. 4:4-5; Col. 2:17
Q. Are all people then saved through Christ just as they were lost through Adam?
A. No. Only those are saved who through true faith are grafted into Christ and accept all his benefits.[1]
1 Matt. 7:14; John 3:16, 18, 36; Rom. 11:16-21
Q. What is true faith?
A. True faith is not only a sure knowledge by which I hold as true all that God has revealed to us in Scripture;[1] it is also a wholehearted trust,[2] which the Holy Spirit creates in me[3] by the gospel,[4] that God has freely granted, not only to others but to me also,[5] forgiveness of sins, eternal righteousness, and salvation.[6] These are gifts of sheer grace, granted solely by Christ’s merit.[7]
1 John 17:3, 17; Heb. 11:1-3; James 2:19
2 Rom. 4:18-21; 5:1; 10:10; Heb. 4:14-16
3 Matt. 16:15-17; John 3:5; Acts 16:14
4 Rom. 1:16; 10:17; 1 Cor. 1:21
5 Gal. 2:20
6 Rom. 1:17; Heb. 10:10
7 Rom. 3:21-26; Gal. 2:16; Eph. 2:8-10
(from the Heidelberg Catechism of 1563)
This is what I used to teach my daughter about the “Theology” of God and what was important to know.
How we live our lives and handle the everyday trials and triumphs is how we taught her about the reality of living in Covenant with God and the Lordship of Jesus Christ. That is my “Calvinist Gospel”.
Make of it what you will ... I am not YOUR servant. (Rom 14:4)
"Q. According to God’s righteous judgment we deserve punishment both now and in eternity"
Chapter and Verse? This sounds like a falsely humble person's opinion.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Three observations ...
- It sure is a good thing Verse 10 stands completely alone and neither God nor Paul gave it to us as part of anything larger that might actually be attempting to make a point. Otherwise this "cookie cutter" Theology score keeping would be much harder and we would have to move past "scripture pong".
- You do not need a cheat sheet to dismiss my theology. Try just saying "I don't buy it." Then I will respond like this: [shrug] "Ok." and you have defeated all of my clever attempts at proselytization. I am not God or your mother, so I am only responsible to tell the truth. I am not responsible for anyone believing it or not believing it.
- "and" does not mean "then" (I can look it up in Greek if you want, but I am pretty sure the result will be the same).
(... and he still should have defended his own beliefs.)
atpollard
Well-Known Member
I will provide the details if you wish, but this is starting at Part 2 of the Catechism, so "we" who deserve punishment are the sinners from Part 1.
Do you still want "Chapter and Verse"?
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We as fallen sinners do not deserve wrath?
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Since this was Part 2 of the catechism (the section dealing with "Deliverance") I decided to go back to the start and look closer at Part 1. I offer for your consideration, the opening:
Question 1. What is your only comfort in life and in death?
Answer. That I am not my own,[1] but belong—body and soul, in life and in death—[2] to my faithful Savior, Jesus Christ.[3]
He has fully paid for all my sins with his precious blood,[4] and has set me free from the tyranny of the devil.[5] He also watches over me in such a way[6] that not a hair can fall from my head without the will of my Father in heaven;[7] in fact, all things must work together for my salvation.[8]
Because I belong to him, Christ, by his Holy Spirit, assures me of eternal life[9] and makes me wholeheartedly willing and ready from now on to live for him.[10]
[1] 1 Corinthians 6:19-20
[2] Romans 14:7-9
[3] 1 Corinthians 3:23 ; Titus 2:14
[4] 1 Peter 1:18-19 ; 1 John 1:7-9 ; 1 John 2:2
[5] John 8:34-36 ; Hebrews 2:14-15 ; 1 John 3:1-11
[6] John 6:39-40 ; John 10:27-30 ; 2 Thessalonians 3:3; 1 Peter 1:5
[7] Matthew 10:29-31 ; Luke 21:16-18
[8] Romans 8:28
[9] Romans 8:15-16 ; 2 Corinthians 1:21-22 ; 2 Corinthians 5:5; Ephesians 1:13-14
[10] Romans 8:1-17
Question 1. What is your only comfort in life and in death?
Answer. That I am not my own,[1] but belong—body and soul, in life and in death—[2] to my faithful Savior, Jesus Christ.[3]
He has fully paid for all my sins with his precious blood,[4] and has set me free from the tyranny of the devil.[5] He also watches over me in such a way[6] that not a hair can fall from my head without the will of my Father in heaven;[7] in fact, all things must work together for my salvation.[8]
Because I belong to him, Christ, by his Holy Spirit, assures me of eternal life[9] and makes me wholeheartedly willing and ready from now on to live for him.[10]
[1] 1 Corinthians 6:19-20
[2] Romans 14:7-9
[3] 1 Corinthians 3:23 ; Titus 2:14
[4] 1 Peter 1:18-19 ; 1 John 1:7-9 ; 1 John 2:2
[5] John 8:34-36 ; Hebrews 2:14-15 ; 1 John 3:1-11
[6] John 6:39-40 ; John 10:27-30 ; 2 Thessalonians 3:3; 1 Peter 1:5
[7] Matthew 10:29-31 ; Luke 21:16-18
[8] Romans 8:28
[9] Romans 8:15-16 ; 2 Corinthians 1:21-22 ; 2 Corinthians 5:5; Ephesians 1:13-14
[10] Romans 8:1-17
Again, you are denying the obvious. People entering the kingdom are seeking God.
Your claims are noted. Matthew 23:13 has lost people entering the kingdom, thus seeking God. That proves total spiritual inability is as bogus as a three dollar bill.
You need to address the verses I have cited time and time again.
What do we need to do to obtain eternal life? John 6:29 says the work God requires of us is to believe in the One whom He sent.
John 6:29 says the work we need to do is to believe in the One God sent.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
I addressed the first (Matthew 23:13) in another topic and again in this one. I am waiting for a response to me addressing of the first verse before wasting time with the second. If you would really like a conversation, then please start a topic and we can discuss one verse at a time and move on to as many as you would like to discuss. However, I get the feeling that you like to post those verses but have no real desire to discuss them (or even post what they actually say).
Those not in the kingdom are lost. In Christ = saved, not in Christ = not saved. Christianity 101
This is the sort of "deny everything" defense liberals use. Sad
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