The "Carnal mind" in Romans 8:7

[agedman]

Have you noticed that when refutation is given, it is ignored and another thread is started on the same subject, with the same accusations being made? I get tired of repetition.

What I have noticed is that they never refute the scripture presented to them. I have shown quite a few scriptures that ALL show men believing BEFORE they received the Holy Spirit which of course refutes Total Inability. They simply ignore these scriptures as though they do not exist.

That's OK, I believe that many others who read these posts can see who is presenting truth and who is not.

Both of these posts are total fabrications.

First, refutation of posts that misuse Scriptures constantly occur on the BB.

That you both don't recognize that fact is no warrant that those posts do not occur and in fact very often the Scriptures are ignored by statements attempting to discredit the poster rather than the truth of Scriptures.

For example look at the above post in which I specifically responded with Scripture IN CONTEXT refuting Winman's view.

Will he accept that refutation and recant from his view? Nope, he will attempt to post more Scripture out of context and inconsistent with the Word of God.

Thomas, I haven't followed your posts long enough to know from what perspective you post, but the issue raised by the thread on the necessity of the blood sacrifice raises an alarm.

 

[Winman]

This verse is no proof to support the refutation of total inability. Rather, in context, the Galatians passage supports total inability.

Galatians 3:2 absolutely refutes Total Inability, because these persons had to believe BEFORE receiving the Spirit. How in the would can someone be regenerated when they do not have the Spirit? How can a person be spiritually alive until they first believe? Until you believe you are DEAD in sin.

You teach a person is regenerated by the Spirit to have the ability to believe. That is impossible, because they did not receive the Spirit UNTIL they believed.

And this refutes total inability?

Yes! because these persons believed BEFORE they had the Spirit. They believed as natural men who did not belong to Christ.

Jesus himself said the "dead" shall hear his voice, and those that hear "shall live". This shows being regenerated follows hearing and believing by those who are spiritually dead.

Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

This is yet another verse that refutes Total Inability. Jesus said the "dead" shall hear his voice (not the living), and those that hear "shall live"

I am not isolating one verse, I am showing you over and over again from many various scriptures that unregenerate spiritually dead men have the ability to both hear and believe the word of God, and when they do their sins shall be forgiven, they are made spiritually alive, and they receive the Holy Spirit.

I could show you more, but you will refuse to listen. You would rather believe your false doctrine than the word of God.

 

[agedman]

Galatians 3:2 absolutely refutes Total Inability, because these persons had to believe BEFORE receiving the Spirit. How in the would can someone be regenerated when they do not have the Spirit? How can a person be spiritually alive until they first believe? Until you believe you are DEAD in sin.

You teach a person is regenerated by the Spirit to have the ability to believe. That is impossible, because they did not receive the Spirit UNTIL they believed.

Where is your Scripture to back up your claim?

You again cite Galatians 3:2, but as I posted the verse IN CONTEXT, it doesn't support your claim - not even close.

You need to move on to another proof-text or admit you are in error.

Yes! because these persons believed BEFORE they had the Spirit. They believed as natural men who did not belong to Christ.

Perhaps you need to go back and look at the discourse of Romans 8 at the beginning of this thread. It is shown (most conclusively) that you are wrong. You again just don't want to admit you are wrong. There is no sense in rehashing those posts again when you have the ability to go back, read them, and then respond to them appropriately.

Jesus himself said the "dead" shall hear his voice, and those that hear "shall live". This shows being regenerated follows hearing and believing by those who are spiritually dead.

I am not going to respond to this until you can post IN CONTEXT the account of Christ's statement and show that it supports your view. Because, it doesn't.

Let's see just what you can do with appropriate exegesis of the Scriptures and whether or not they support your claim.

Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

This is yet another verse that refutes Total Inability. Jesus said the "dead" shall hear his voice, not the living, and those that hear "shall live"

Why did you leave out the context?

Here it is:

25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
30 “I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
31 “If I alone testify about Myself, My testimony is not true. 32 There is another who testifies of Me, and I know that the testimony which He gives about Me is true.
​

Show were the dead are those who are not actually dead and in the ground?

I am not isolating one verse, I am showing you over and over again from many various scriptures that unregenerate spiritually dead men have the ability to both hear and believe the word of God, and when they do their sins shall be forgiven, they are made spiritually alive, and they receive the Holy Spirit.

I could show you more, but you will refuse to listen. You would rather believe your false doctrine than the word of God.

I haven't refused anything but continue to show in CONTEXT how your position is unsupportable.

Show how John 5 supports your perspective?

I have shown in EVERY case your selection of verses is "proof-text" and not accurate with the context.

I posted much of Romans 8 IN CONTEXT and showed the truth of the OP.

Where is YOUR refutation of the work done on Romans 8?

In case you missed it here it is:

From agedman earlier post in this thread:

So folks can get a more clear reading of what passage is being discussed, here is the first part of Romans 8:

Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

​

Let me break here to give the reader a chance to ponder that Paul is expressing in detail the conflict resolution the believer experiences in Romans 7. The key point is God fulfilled all requirements and the believer is free from the law of sin and death because the believer does not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

See the next verse addresses the lost in comparison to those who are believers - parenthesis added to track who is whom.

5 For those who are according to the flesh (the lost) set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit (the believer), the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh (the lost) is death, but the mind set on the Spirit (the believers) is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh (the lost) is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
​

The context in which verse 7 and 8 occur demonstrates the pattern and therefore verse 7 and 8 must be applied to the lost, and the absolute incapability of the lost.

9 However, you (the believer) are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you (the believer). But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ (the lost), he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you (the believer), though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you (the Holy Spirit of God), He (God) who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.​

I know all you scholarly folks don't need this post, but I give it to those guests who might drop in on the thread and to those who want to see the consistency of the OP in the passage.

Note: There is no doubt that Paul and James do call believers, whose living is worldly, to account, always with the encouragement to "present their bodies (as) a living sacrifice" allowing the Holy Spirit to "dwell in them fully" and other such pleas. That does not mean they are lost, but that they lack commitment to the things of Spirit of God.

James states: 4 You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God

Paul states: 8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

In THIS passage, the carnal is referring to the lost.

 

[Winman]

The scriptures are full of verses that refute Total Inability.

Pro 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

Which occurs first here? turning at God's reproof, or receiving the Spirit?

And we also see that men can repent or turn at God's reproof BEFORE understanding the deep things of God, refuting the Calvinist view of 1 Corinthians 2:14.

The order shown is:

#1 Turning or repenting by the man at God's reproof

#2 Receiving the Spirit

#3 God making his words known unto the believer

You will always see this order in scripture, look at Ephesians 1:13;

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Once again we see the same order,

#1 Hearing the gospel

#2 Believing the gospel

#3 Receiving and being sealed by the Spirit.

You try to teach that a man without the Spirit is regenerated, this is refuted by Romans 8:9-10. A man without the Spirit is "in the flesh" and does not have life (vs. 10) yet these persons were able to both hear and believe the gospel before they received the Spirit.

I have already shown you multiple scriptures that ALL support that unregenerated men dead in sin can hear and believe the gospel and afterward they receive the Spirit.

You cannot show even one verse in the Bible that says a man is regenerated before he believes. If so, SHOW IT.

 

[Winman]

Where is your Scripture to back up your claim?

You again cite Galatians 3:2, but as I posted the verse IN CONTEXT, it doesn't support your claim - not even close.

You need to move on to another proof-text or admit you are in error.

I have shown much more than Gal 3:2 and you know it. I showed where Peter told the Jews to repent and believe on Jesus for the remission of sins (because only believers are baptized), and afterward they would receive the Spirit.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I showed you in Proverbs 1 where God told a man to turn at his reproof and he would pour out his spirit to that man.

You simply will not believe the plain teaching of multiple scriptures.

Perhaps you need to go back and look at the discourse of Romans 8 at the beginning of this thread. It is shown (most conclusively) that you are wrong. You again just don't want to admit you are wrong. There is no sense in rehashing those posts again when you have the ability to go back, read them, and then respond to them appropriately.

You don't get it, this is the debate. I say your interpretation of Romans 8 is error, and I have shown many scriptures that easily refute your view.

I am not going to respond to this until you can post IN CONTEXT the account of Christ's statement and show that it supports your view. Because, it doesn't.

Let's see just what you can do with appropriate exegesis of the Scriptures and whether or not they support your claim.

Jesus is speaking of unregenerate men in vs. 25. This is clearly shown when he contrasts these persons to physically dead men two verses later.

Jhn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Notice the difference here, here Jesus speaks of all that are in the graves. Here he speaks of the resurrection.

So, in verse 25 he is speaking of spiritually dead persons hearing the word of God, and if they hear and believe they "shall live", but here in verses 28-29 he is speaking of the physical resurrection.

But you will refuse to listen no matter how much proof I provide.

Why did you leave out the context?

Here it is:

25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
30 “I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
31 “If I alone testify about Myself, My testimony is not true. 32 There is another who testifies of Me, and I know that the testimony which He gives about Me is true.
​

Show were the dead are those who are not actually dead and in the ground?

I just explained this, vs. 25 is speaking of the spiritually dead, vs. 28-29 is speaking of the physically dead.

I haven't refused anything but continue to show in CONTEXT how your position is unsupportable.

Show how John 5 supports your perspective?

I have shown in EVERY case your selection of verses is "proof-text" and not accurate with the context.

I posted much of Romans 8 IN CONTEXT and showed the truth of the OP.

Where is YOUR refutation of the work done on Romans 8?

In case you missed it here it is:

From agedman earlier post in this thread:

No, you simply explain away any scripture that refutes Total Inability, which is much.

 

[The Biblicist]

I have clearly answered you in another thread that was closed. Romans 8:7 does not prove Total Inability. To say that while someone minds the flesh he "cannot" please God, is not to say that the man cannot think otherwise.

Your answers were thoroughly repudiated and you did not come back to respond.

Now you are again playing the same old JUMP and DIVERSION tactic. Notice the subject of the OP. Nobody has answered this OP and I mean NOBODY! Nobody has directly addressed the OP and until somebody does I am repeating it.

 

[The Biblicist]

I am opening up this new thread on Romans 8:7 because I don't believe the characterization of the "carnal mind" in Romans 8:7 was sufficiently dealt with. So this OP is focused strictly upon the characterization of the "carnal mind" as presented in Romans 8:7 and applied to Romans 8:8 to the lost condition.

The Greek word translated "carnal mind" is a noun. As many of you know in the Greek nouns and adjectives have no tense but cases. James suggested that my treatment on this noun was incorrect because to him it suggested that I was implying a tense, such as the Aorist tense.




Of course, I never said or suggested a Greek noun had any tense. I explicitly referred to its MEANING "the carnal mind set" which infers a direction of the will towards something. In context, the fallen nature overpowered the will of Paul when he acted in his own strength:

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Thus it is indwelling sin that overpower his will to do good and instead of good produces evil. This is the "carnal" mindset described in the rest of Romans 8:7. It is described by the words "enmity" which is a state of war or an active assault upon God. It is described as an active state of resistance to the revealed will of God (law) in the words "is not subject to the law of God." These are acts of the will under the power of indwelling sin. Thus a "carnal" "mind set" or the will in action against God. In addition, this MIND SET of indwelling sin/fallen nature has no ability to respond any other way - "indeed neither indeed can be" in regard to its resistance to the revealed will of God (not subject to the law of God).

Now it is this "mindset" that Paul immediately applies directly to the lost man in verse 8 to explain why they "cannot" please God. Again the word "cannot" denies ability to please God. Thus total inability to please God and the characterization of this mindset in Romans 8:7 demands that as this would be impossible for that kind of mindset.

Now some have suggested that this "mindset" of the fallen nature is merely an option of the lost man rather than his total condition. However, that is impossible as Paul claims that in the regenerated man ("in the Spirit") the only option they have to overcome it cannot be found anywhere else but "in the Spirit" and under the power of the indwelling Spirit (Rom. 8:9-13). In other words, the regenerated man has no other option available but through the indwelling Spirit to defeat the power of indwelling sin. Hence, the unregenerated man according to some of our opponents has more options to deal with this "mind set' than the saved man has if this mind set is only one option that he can overcome without being regenerated and without the power of the indwelling Spirit. How is it possible that the unregenerated state is capable of overcoming this carnal mindset described in Romans 8:7-8 without regeneration, without the power of the Holy Spirit and yet the regenerated man cannot overcome it apart from either?????

This is what James is demanding when he says:





Thus suggesting that the lost man has the power to alter that "state of mind"! If that is true then the unregenerated man has more ability to deal with this mind set than the regenreated man. If the unregenerated man can overcome this mindset without regeneration or the power of the indwelling Spirit then why can't the regenerated man also overcome this "mind set" when he has been regenerated with a new "inward man" that delights in the law of God without the power of the indwelling Spirit??? Romans 7:14-25 proves he cannot and therefore this idea that the lost man can is false.

Moreover, the ONLY SOLUTION provided for the regenerated man to overcome this "carnal" mindset is not sheer will power (Rom. 7:18) but the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:9-13). If this is the ONLY SOLUTION provided for victory over this carnal mind set described in verse 8 then how can the unregenerated man have another solution??? The regenerated man's only other option is found "in the Spirit" and the power of the Indwelling Spirit but the lost man does not have that option. Either the unregenerated man is SUPERIOR to the regenerated man or he is totally depraved and without ability to do so. There are no other logical alternatives.

This post represents the last attempt on the other thread to answer the exposition I set forth. As anyone can see I have completely repudiated this attempt and exposed as complete nonsense.

Nobody on this thread has yet addressed this OP. Please stop derailing the thread and address the OP. Nobody has and if they say they have we have the record on the previous thread and this thread to show they are lying.

 

[Winman]

This post represents the last attempt on the other thread to answer the exposition I set forth. As anyone can see I have completely repudiated this attempt and exposed as complete nonsense.

Nobody on this thread has yet addressed this OP. Please stop derailing the thread and address the OP. Nobody has and if they say they have we have the record on the previous thread and this thread to show they are lying.

Dude, what is your problem? Nobody quotes themselves.

If nobody answers you, you will debate yourself. A little obsessive to say the least.

 

[The Biblicist]

Dude, what is your problem? Nobody quotes themselves.

If nobody answers you, you will debate yourself. A little obsessive to say the least.

Here is the last argument you set forth in the last thread:

Originally Posted by Winman
I disagree, Paul had just described sin slaying him in verses 9-11, Paul says he is "carnal" and "sold under sin" in vs. 14, so I believe Paul is describing an unregenerate man. In his mind he wants to please God and obey him, but in his flesh he commits sin and is brought under it's domination.

Here is my response to your argument:

Impossible!

1. Paul changes from the past tense in verses 7-13 to the present tense in verses 14-25.

2. Paul restricts the origin of evil within him to "the flesh" or what he further describes as "the law of sin" in his members in direct contrast to "I" who delight in the Law of God after the inward man. The lost man has no inward man that delights in God's Law because that requires an act of creation (Eph. 4:24,Col. 3:10; Eph. 2:10) within man where God writes the law upon the heart (2 Cor. 3:3; 4:6).

3. Paul in this condition finds deliverance from this problem in Jesus Christ without disolving this dichotomy - vv. 24-25

4. In this dichotomy he claims he can still "serve God" (v. 25) which the lost man cannot do in an unregenerate condition.


You could not and did not respond to these evidences except by saying over and over "I disagree". Your ignorance of Greek is not an asset but a limitation and so I would not use it as excuse for ignorance or error.

Now, I have repeated my OP because YOU and nobody else has addressed and if you say you have you are lying and I have the evidence to prove it.

If you guys cannot stick with the OP (and you have not even attempted to answer it) then I will have the thread shut down and will open another one and present the same evidence. You are incapable of addressing simply because it exposes your view as completely erroneouos. That is the real reason you dare not address the OP. Ridicule is your only refuge and that is why you are stooping to that level.

 

[Greektim]

I’m curious if any of you gymnasts can simply read the plain simple context of the chapter which demonstrates that this is written to believers pertaining to instructions in how they should be doing in their walk in Christ? Seems to me this should obvious whatever language you read it in…

I’m also curious if someone were to ever have dared taking away the little Determinist’s candy as a baby, did they always end up giving it back because of your screaming?

I mean, I know you guys like your proof-text candy but claiming ROM 8:7 is good for your “truth” in that it supports your doctrines of Total Inability of the carnal man to be unable to respond to the influences of God, before being regenerated as you also falsely presume which is also being read into this, is more than a stretch.

It just isn’t there my little beloved.

Sorry, but your wanting only a half truth and you are neglecting the meaning in which it was given. It resembles a baby arguing that he likes his candy and he wants to continue sucking on it simply because it tastes good to him and that makes it good for food…

“If you take part of the truth, and try to make that part of the truth, all of the truth, then that part of the truth becomes an untruth.” ~ Adrian Rogers

Of course, I’m sure a “well” educated little baby might be to put up an argument that candy is food, but really now…

I think someone needs to take away those glasses that Uncle Calvin gave you with that candy if you can’t get past this.

Well aren't you the most gracious poster on the forum. Are you always this snarky? I hope you have more than this, b/c in this battle of wits, you've clearly come unarmed.

The issue w/ the Greek tenses is multifaceted and I'm sure you have no earthly idea about any of it. dJA used jargon and I wanted to see what he knew about it. Also, there is a huge, I mean HUGE, debate amongst ancient Greek philologists and grammarians as to the function of the Greek tense and how it pertains to time. So your gymnast analogy is useless. But then you would know that if you actually followed and read the conversations here.

As to proof-texting, it is clear you can't read my posts, b/c I have been arguing context louder than anyone here. It was your semi-pelagian compatriot that liked to proof text to make his point. So instead of coming into a conversation at the end where you clearly have no clue, read the threads b/c this discussion is in three different threads now.

Lastly, I am not your little beloved. I'm not sure I'm your beloved at all. You can keep your satire to yourself. I would rather you be brash and state what you mean. Alas, most people speak more truth in sarcasm than they do in real life. Your true colors are quite apparent.

Speaking of parents, what is with all the baby analogies??? Freudian slip?? Your mom not hold you enough when you were a sappling????????

 

[Greektim]

This post represents the last attempt on the other thread to answer the exposition I set forth. As anyone can see I have completely repudiated this attempt and exposed as complete nonsense.

Nobody on this thread has yet addressed this OP. Please stop derailing the thread and address the OP. Nobody has and if they say they have we have the record on the previous thread and this thread to show they are lying.

Your OP is way too long. I have many things to read, and your thoughts are not high on the list when they get that long. Keep it short and to the point. People are more apt to read and respond to what you have to say when it doesn't take too much effort. Free advice that I've learned in these forums.

 

[Winman]

Here is the last argument you set forth in the last thread:

Originally Posted by Winman
I disagree, Paul had just described sin slaying him in verses 9-11, Paul says he is "carnal" and "sold under sin" in vs. 14, so I believe Paul is describing an unregenerate man. In his mind he wants to please God and obey him, but in his flesh he commits sin and is brought under it's domination.

Here is my response to your argument:

Impossible!

1. Paul changes from the past tense in verses 7-13 to the present tense in verses 14-25.

2. Paul restricts the origin of evil within him to "the flesh" or what he further describes as "the law of sin" in his members in direct contrast to "I" who delight in the Law of God after the inward man. The lost man has no inward man that delights in God's Law because that requires an act of creation (Eph. 4:24,Col. 3:10; Eph. 2:10) within man where God writes the law upon the heart (2 Cor. 3:3; 4:6).

3. Paul in this condition finds deliverance from this problem in Jesus Christ without disolving this dichotomy - vv. 24-25

4. In this dichotomy he claims he can still "serve God" (v. 25) which the lost man cannot do in an unregenerate condition.


You could not and did not respond to these evidences except by saying over and over "I disagree". Your ignorance of Greek is not an asset but a limitation and so I would not use it as excuse for ignorance or error.

Now, I have repeated my OP because YOU and nobody else has addressed and if you say you have you are lying and I have the evidence to prove it.

If you guys cannot stick with the OP (and you have not even attempted to answer it) then I will have the thread shut down and will open another one and present the same evidence. You are incapable of addressing simply because it exposes your view as completely erroneouos. That is the real reason you dare not address the OP. Ridicule is your only refuge and that is why you are stooping to that level.

I answered you, I believe Paul was speaking of himself before he was saved in Romans 7.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

No Christian is "sold under sin". We have been freed from sin.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Paul is speaking from the perspective of an unregenerate man in Romans 7. If he were speaking from the perspective of a saved man he would not have said he was sold under sin, as the saved man is dead to sin and freed from it.

Of course you will disagree, because if Paul is speaking from the perspective of an unregenerate man, then Total Inability is totally destroyed. Paul shows that in his spirit and his mind the unsaved man is able to obey God to a degree, he is able to be willing to obey, he delights in the law of God, but he is brought into subjection of sin.

The moment you sin you are sold to sin like a slave in the market. No matter what you do you belong to sin, and sin's wage is always death. This is what it means to be enslaved to sin, it does not mean you are compelled to always do what is wrong.

You can say what you will, better minds than yours have argued Paul is speaking from the perspective of a lost man for centuries. I happen to agree with this interpretation.

The remainder of this chapter has been the subject of no small degree of controversy. The question has been whether it describes the state of Paul before his conversion, or afterward.

Now, Barnes clearly states he believes Paul is speaking from the perspective of a saved man, but he freely admits that great scholars have disagreed on this issue for centuries.

So, you have not PROVED anything. You seem to believe that everything you say is gospel.

 

[The Biblicist]

I answered you, I believe Paul was speaking of himself before he was saved in Romans 7.

That is true concerning Romans 7:6-13 but that is not true concerning Romans 7:14-25 for the reasons I listed which you never responded to.


1. Paul changes from the past tense in verses 7-13 to the present tense in verses 14-25.

2. Paul restricts the origin of evil within him to "the flesh" or what he further describes as "the law of sin" in his members in direct contrast to "I" who delight in the Law of God after the inward man. The lost man has no inward man that delights in God's Law because that requires an act of creation (Eph. 4:24,Col. 3:10; Eph. 2:10) within man where God writes the law upon the heart (2 Cor. 3:3; 4:6).

3. Paul in this condition finds deliverance from this problem in Jesus Christ without disolving this dichotomy - vv. 24-25

4. In this dichotomy he claims he can still "serve God" (v. 25) which the lost man cannot do in an unregenerate condition.

B]Rom 7:14[/B] For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

No Christian is "sold under sin". We have been freed from sin.

You draw this conclusion because you jerk verse 14 out of its context. Read it in its context and he explains that he is not a unified person but two opposing parts and he is talking about "the flesh" aspect that is sold under sin and it is easy to prove that your interpetation cannot harmonize with that truth.

1. There is NOTHING GOOD in "the flesh" (v. 18) but the inward man is good and delights in the law of God. (v. 21).

2. The flesh continues in its disobedience but Paul redeemed aspect serves God which a lost man cannot do - v. 25

3. Paul cries for deliverance from "this body of death" not deliverance from his "inward man" that delights after God.

It is not possible to harmonize your view with all these contextual facts. In addition to these problems you render Romans 8:8-13 as null and void by your interpretation as you have the unregenerated man capable of overcoming the problem in Romans 8:7 when the regenerated man cannot do it apart from the power of the Holy Spirit. So your whole interpretation makes no sense at all.

However, I do commend you for at least attempting to address the problems I presented.

 

[agedman]

Ok Winman, I will respond once more to your proof texting to show the futility of your view.

You said:

The scriptures are full of verses that refute Total Inability.

Pro 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

Which occurs first here? turning at God's reproof, or receiving the Spirit?

Actually this translation will give you a better view of what God is stating:

Repent at my rebuke!
Then I will pour out my thoughts to you,
I will make known to you my teachings.
​

See, God rebukes, then seeks the repentence ("Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.")

God then pours out HIS thoughts and makes known his teaching.

See, again, your proof text fails to sustain your view.

And we also see that men can repent or turn at God's reproof BEFORE understanding the deep things of God, refuting the Calvinist view of 1 Corinthians 2:14.

The order shown is:

#1 Turning or repenting by the man at God's reproof

#2 Receiving the Spirit

#3 God making his words known unto the believer

Again, the CONTEXT refutes your claim of support:

10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.​

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”

​

But we have the mind of Christ.
​

See the increased size bold - It refutes your view. AND it is in context, too. BTW, I switched to the NIV so you would see that the truth even in a version that I consider a lessor source than that of the NASB.

You will always see this order in scripture, look at Ephesians 1:13;

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Once again we see the same order,

#1 Hearing the gospel

#2 Believing the gospel

#3 Receiving and being sealed by the Spirit.

You try to teach that a man without the Spirit is regenerated, this is refuted by Romans 8:9-10. A man without the Spirit is "in the flesh" and does not have life (vs. 10) yet these persons were able to both hear and believe the gospel before they received the Spirit.

Again, the context refutes your statement using the NASB:

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
​

See, it is NOT man first then God.

Just the opposite. It is God choosing, IN HIM - making the elect capable of listening and therefore expressing belief were then sealed IN HIM.

That you don't see this clear presentation but put human ability first does not place the Scriptures as supporting your view.

As I have stated more than once: ALL salvation from the first impulse of Godly conviction to the final glorification is totally of God. Not one bit can be attributed to human ability or volition.

I have already shown you multiple scriptures that ALL support that unregenerated men dead in sin can hear and believe the gospel and afterward they receive the Spirit.

You cannot show even one verse in the Bible that says a man is regenerated before he believes. If so, SHOW IT.

You have done nothing but pull Scriptures out of context, apply some human reasoning that fits your scheme and then proclaim support from the Scriptures.

In EVERY case you have been shown to be refuted and your view to be shown lacking.

I don't have to show "even one verse in the Bible that says a man is regenerated before he believes."

It is YOU that have not proven your view.

When you admit that point, then there just might be a time to discuss what I view and the Scripture support.

Until then, you are attempting to distract the issue by bringing up a different matter.

Deal with YOUR issue first. Then perhaps there is room to acknowledge (perhaps only in part) what I consider consistent with the Scriptures. Until then, you merely seek an occasion against me, and avoid the consequences of the refutation.

 

[The Biblicist]

That is true concerning Romans 7:6-13 but that is not true concerning Romans 7:14-25 for the reasons I listed which you never responded to.


1. Paul changes from the past tense in verses 7-13 to the present tense in verses 14-25.

2. Paul restricts the origin of evil within him to "the flesh" or what he further describes as "the law of sin" in his members in direct contrast to "I" who delight in the Law of God after the inward man. The lost man has no inward man that delights in God's Law because that requires an act of creation (Eph. 4:24,Col. 3:10; Eph. 2:10) within man where God writes the law upon the heart (2 Cor. 3:3; 4:6).

3. Paul in this condition finds deliverance from this problem in Jesus Christ without disolving this dichotomy - vv. 24-25

4. In this dichotomy he claims he can still "serve God" (v. 25) which the lost man cannot do in an unregenerate condition.


You draw this conclusion because you jerk verse 14 out of its context. Read it in its context and he explains that he is not a unified person but two opposing parts and he is talking about "the flesh" aspect that is sold under sin and it is easy to prove that your interpetation cannot harmonize with that truth.

1. There is NOTHING GOOD in "the flesh" (v. 18) but the inward man is good and delights in the law of God. (v. 21).

2. The flesh continues in its disobedience but Paul redeemed aspect serves God which a lost man cannot do - v. 25

3. Paul cries for deliverance from "this body of death" not deliverance from his "inward man" that delights after God.

It is not possible to harmonize your view with all these contextual facts. In addition to these problems you render Romans 8:8-13 as null and void by your interpretation as you have the unregenerated man capable of overcoming the problem in Romans 8:7 when the regenerated man cannot do it apart from the power of the Holy Spirit. So your whole interpretation makes no sense at all.

However, I do commend you for at least attempting to address the problems I presented.

Let me ask you this question if I may.

If for the sake of argument you agreed with my interpretation of Romans 7:14-25 would that not also confirm my interpretation of Romans 8:7-13 to be correct as well?

If not, why not? If so, then let us address Romans 7:14-25 in a more comprehensive manner because I have just given summary statements without really getting down with it.

 

[Iconoclast]

Ok Winman, I will respond once more to your proof texting to show the futility of your view.

You said:




See, again, your proof text fails to sustain your view.





Again, the CONTEXT refutes your claim of support:

[/INDENT]See the increased size bold - It refutes your view. AND it is in context, too.





Again, the context refutes your statement using the NASB:

Just the opposite. It is God choosing, IN HIM - making the elect capable of listening and therefore expressing belief were then sealed IN HIM.

That you don't see this clear presentation but put human ability first does not place the Scriptures as supporting your view.

As I have stated more than once: ALL salvation from the first impulse of Godly conviction to the final glorification is totally of God. Not one bit can be attributed to human ability or volition.



You have done nothing but pull Scriptures out of context, apply some human reasoning that fits your scheme and then proclaim support from the Scriptures.

In EVERY case you have been shown to be refuted and your view to be shown lacking.


It is YOU that have not proven your view.

When you admit that point, then there just might be a time to discuss what I view and the Scripture support.

Until then, you are attempting to distract the issue by bringing up a different matter.

Deal with YOUR issue first. Then perhaps there is room to acknowledge (perhaps only in part) what I consider consistent with the Scriptures. Until then, you merely seek an occasion against me, and avoid the consequences of the refutation.​

A masterful response to a chronic condition:wavey::wavey:​

 

[Winman]

Ok Winman, I will respond once more to your proof texting to show the futility of your view.

You said:

Actually this translation will give you a better view of what God is stating:

Repent at my rebuke!
Then I will pour out my thoughts to you,
I will make known to you my teachings.
​

See, God rebukes, then seeks the repentence ("Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.")

God then pours out HIS thoughts and makes known his teaching.

See, again, your proof text fails to sustain your view.

Hey, I'm King James only, I believe your version is corrupt, so I do not accept this argument at all.

And thanks for more additional evidence that the King James and Modern Versions do not say the same thing. I will remember this verse and present your argument in the future when folks claim the MVs say the same thing and do not alter doctrine. :thumbsup:

Again, the CONTEXT refutes your claim of support:

10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.​

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”

​

But we have the mind of Christ.
​

See the increased size bold - It refutes your view. AND it is in context, too. BTW, I switched to the NIV so you would see that the truth even in a version that I consider a lessor source than that of the NASB.

Your problem is that 1 Cor 2:12 says these Corinthians have already received the Spirit so that they may be able to understand the deep things of God. Then when you go to scripture to see how a man receives the Spirit, you will ALWAYS find we receive the Spirit by faith, proving the unregenerate man can believe. He may not understand the deep mysteries of God, but he can understand and believe the simple gospel. The scriptures show that even a child can understand the gospel.

Again, the context refutes your statement using the NASB:

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
​

See, it is NOT man first then God.

Just the opposite. It is God choosing, IN HIM - making the elect capable of listening and therefore expressing belief were then sealed IN HIM.

People are placed in Christ in time;

Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Paul said Andronicus and Junia were in Christ BEFORE ME, showing we are placed in Christ in time when we believe.

Then how were we chosen "in him" before the foundation of the world? Easy, we are elect according to the foreknowledge of God. God could know who would believe before they were born, and he chose those whom he knew would believe on Jesus in time.

That you don't see this clear presentation but put human ability first does not place the Scriptures as supporting your view.

As I have stated more than once: ALL salvation from the first impulse of Godly conviction to the final glorification is totally of God. Not one bit can be attributed to human ability or volition.

I have NEVER placed human ability first. I have repeated shown Romans 10:14 and argued that no man could possibly believe on Jesus unless God had revealed himself to that man. But once God reveals himself through the preaching of the word, that man can be drawn and convicted to choose to believe in Jesus. God gets all the credit, if he had not called the man, the man could not have been saved.

You have done nothing but pull Scriptures out of context, apply some human reasoning that fits your scheme and then proclaim support from the Scriptures.

In EVERY case you have been shown to be refuted and your view to be shown lacking.

I don't have to show "even one verse in the Bible that says a man is regenerated before he believes."

Yes you do, because I can (and have) shown many scriptures that ALL say a man must believe to have life.

You simply know that there is no scripture supporting your view.

It is YOU that have not proven your view.

When you admit that point, then there just might be a time to discuss what I view and the Scripture support.

Until then, you are attempting to distract the issue by bringing up a different matter.

Deal with YOUR issue first. Then perhaps there is room to acknowledge (perhaps only in part) what I consider consistent with the Scriptures. Until then, you merely seek an occasion against me, and avoid the consequences of the refutation.

I have presented many scriptures all supporting my view, you have shown none.

You simply reject any scripture that does not agree with your view.

 

[percho]

It is very difficult to understand your posts, but notice these scriptures refute Total Inability. Look carefully.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?


Romans 8:9 says that if any man has not the Spirit, he is none of Christ's.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Did these Galatians mentioned in Gal 3:2 originally have the Spirit? NO, otherwise Paul would not have said they "received the Spirit".

Were they able to believe BEFORE they received the Spirit. YES. This is unmistakable, Paul's question demands the answer that these Galatians first believed the gospel, and as a result of believing received the Spirit.

This absolutely refutes Total Inability. Men who are dead in sin and unregenerate can hear the gospel and believe it, and if they do they shall be justified and made spiritually alive and receive the indwelling Holy Spirit.

This is shown many times in scripture;

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Paul's question clearly shows he believed that a person received the Holy Spirit as a result of that person first believing the gospel. Again, this completely refutes Total Inability.

You can't isolate one single verse in the scripture and build a false doctrine on it, completely ignoring many other verses that refute that doctrine.

Anyone who is honest and reads the WHOLE of scripture must admit the scriptures clearly show men are able to believe BEFORE they receive the Holy Spirit. In fact, a person MUST believe to receive the Holy Spirit.

Winman

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?


That verse does not mean they received the Spirit because they believed something.

TR 3:2 τοῦτο μόνον θέλω μαθεῖν ἀφ᾽ ὑμῶν ἐξ ἔργων νόμου τὸ πνεῦμα ἐλάβετε ἢ ἐξ ἀκοῆς πίστεως At least Darby was honest in his translation and showed, "the," not in the Greek.

or out of hearing of faith. ------ What was heard about is by which the Spirit was given.

Even yourself show this when you posted Acts 19:2. They believed something about Jesus some time ago yet they had not been given the Holy Spirit even though they believed.

By their being baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus, implies they were baptized into his death, that is hearing Jesus died for their sins. That is the faith by which the Spirit would be given. As Jesus said, "If I go not away the Comforter (the Holy Spirit) will not come."

Reading backward Galatians 3:2 says they received the Spirit because Christ was crucified for them verse one and not by works of the law.

Actually when God gives one the Holy Spirit it puts Christ in you thus Christ in you becomes the faith in you.

Christ in you the hope of glory.

What is faith according to Hebrews 11:1? Substance of hope.

 

[psalms109:31]

The whole thing about Paul teaching you can't trust the carnal mind is talking to an unbeliever and a believer.

We are to trust His word over our own understanding, our carnal mind about it.

Paul never meant to use it to tell people they can't come, Paul used it to reach people for Christ to tell them the can't trust themselves, but they can trust in Christ.

Paul spent his life reaching people for Jesus Christ and calling us who believe to do so also.

It was never meant to be used to tell anyone they can't come because of the carnal mind that we all have to fight even as a believers, but to tell them don't trust their carnal mind come as you are dead in your transgression and sin and Jesus will change you.

It is a shame to try to use scripture to tell people they can't come. Our carnal mind is just another excuse not to come.

This is our job we are called to do.

Hebrews 3:
12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

This carnal mind is all around us to fight constantly and we need each other for encouragement.

 

[Winman]

Winman

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?


That verse does not mean they received the Spirit because they believed something.

Of course it does. Paul's question demands the answer that they received the Spirit as a result of believing the gospel. I have also showed many other scriptures that say the same things such as Ephesians 1:13.

TR 3:2 τοῦτο μόνον θέλω μαθεῖν ἀφ᾽ ὑμῶν ἐξ ἔργων νόμου τὸ πνεῦμα ἐλάβετε ἢ ἐξ ἀκοῆς πίστεως At least Darby was honest in his translation and showed, "the," not in the Greek.

So, one single version disagrees. Lucky you, what would you have done if you could not have found a version that says what you want to hear?

I read only the King James. Thanks for showing that other versions do not say the same thing. :thumbs:

or out of hearing of faith. ------ What was heard about is by which the Spirit was given.

Even yourself show this when you posted Acts 19:2. They believed something about Jesus some time ago yet they had not been given the Holy Spirit even though they believed.

No, they didn't, they believed John the Baptist. But once they heard the gospel of Jesus they believed and were baptized, and afterward received the Spirit. Go back and read with comprehension.

By their being baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus, implies they were baptized into his death, that is hearing Jesus died for their sins. That is the faith by which the Spirit would be given. As Jesus said, "If I go not away the Comforter (the Holy Spirit) will not come."

Just proves that men without the Spirit could believe doesn't it?

Reading backward Galatians 3:2 says they received the Spirit because Christ was crucified for them verse one and not by works of the law.

I don't read backwards. Paul shows that they received the Spirit by believing the gospel, and not by meriting it by works.

Actually when God gives one the Holy Spirit it puts Christ in you thus Christ in you becomes the faith in you.

Christ in you the hope of glory.

What is faith according to Hebrews 11:1? Substance of hope.

You can't just make your own stuff up dude. No one is "in Christ" until they believe in time as Paul clearly shows in Romans 16:7. God could choose us "in him" before the foundation of the world because he knows in his foreknowledge who will believe and who will believe not.

Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

As you see, Jesus knew "from the beginning" who would believe not, therefore he also knew who would believe.