• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

The Case for Singing (OLD) Hymns

12strings

Active Member
I disagree with the idea that all hymns are more singable than modern music. I have always found some hymns impossible to figure out (I don't read music) and I struggled with them - so much so that I never even thought of the words.

I do love many hymns though and find some of the modern "hymns" to be wonderful too - especially the ones from the Getty's.

Hopefully I didn't say ALL hymns are more singable...but on average, there are more quarter notes and eighth-notes than dotted and tied-over notes.

Then again, there are always a few hymns like "And Can it be" which is more like a baroque vocal exercise!

And there are many singable new songs, especially those written for congregational use.

I suppose the difference is this: We as congregations are not trying to sing Arias from handel's messiah as worship hymns...but we do often try to sing contemporary solo songs as corporate hymns.
 

12strings

Active Member
If one is happy with the songs offered for worship at his/her church, why try to convince those who attend other churches to seek that style of music? Personally, I love the mix of "hymns" and contemporary worship at my church. Just last Sunday, we sang a traditional arrangement (with orchestra) of "A Mighty Fortress is Our God" followed by "Praise to the Lord", and then the very contemporary "Everlasting God" and later in the service sang Chris Tomlin's hymn-and-contemporary mix as presented in "Amazing Grace/My Chains are Gone." All those songs moved just about everyone in the congregation. Why does anyone else care how we worship? That has always puzzled me. Be happy in how you worship, and please, don't be concerned about how we do. No offense, and I know the OP is not "dictating," but really, let it be. There's too much tendency to strife amongst members as it is. God bless.

I agree with much of what you have said here. I do think that churches that eschew everything new are missing out. But I also feel at least 95% confident in saying that if a church NEVER sings old hymns, not even old hymns with a rock band...they are missing out.
 

Mexdeaf

New Member
I agree with much of what you have said here. I do think that churches that eschew everything new are missing out. But I also feel at least 95% confident in saying that if a church NEVER sings old hymns, not even old hymns with a rock band...they are missing out.

Agreed on both counts.
 

Luke2427

Active Member
Everyplace I go the atmosphere contains 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, and traces of hydrogen, helium, and other "noble" gases (by volume), but generally a variable amount of water vapor is also present, on average about 1%.

No matter what kind of music is playing.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/atmosphere

4. A dominant intellectual or emotional environment or attitude: an atmosphere of distrust among the electorate.
5. The dominant tone or mood of a work of art.
6. An aesthetic quality or effect, especially a distinctive and pleasing one, associated with a particular place: a restaurant with an Old World atmosphere.
 

Luke2427

Active Member
If one is happy with the songs offered for worship at his/her church, why try to convince those who attend other churches to seek that style of music? Personally, I love the mix of "hymns" and contemporary worship at my church. Ju

Because what matters is not whether or not "one is happy." What matters is whether or not One is happy.


]
 

Luke2427

Active Member
Yes.... that is what most churches are void of. Same old same old!

What most churches, in my experience, are devoid of is reverence for God.

Its all about cool and casual and contemporary- as if the one they worship is not the One who holds the stars in their sockets.
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Hopefully I didn't say ALL hymns are more singable...but on average, there are more quarter notes and eighth-notes than dotted and tied-over notes.

Then again, there are always a few hymns like "And Can it be" which is more like a baroque vocal exercise!

And there are many singable new songs, especially those written for congregational use.

I suppose the difference is this: We as congregations are not trying to sing Arias from handel's messiah as worship hymns...but we do often try to sing contemporary solo songs as corporate hymns.

And Can It Be - LOL - Yes, that's a tough one!! :)

I agree with your thoughts here. Definitely solo songs don't necessarily cross over well. :) Worship leaders have a tough job because there is a lot of good stuff out there and a lot of bad stuff passing itself off as good stuff and the leader needs to be able to discern the difference. I know I've watched my husband turn down songs to be used for worship because of poor theology, poor singability or some other reason.
 

12strings

Active Member
For Luke and whoever else:

As a devil's advocate: Is pursuing an "atmosphere" really that important? If by chance, you or I had the opportunity to instruct a small church in the area of musical worship, a church with very limited musical resources...is "atmosphere" really something that should be at the top of our list?

Should not the focus be on singing good solid truth, and perhaps some practical advice such as "use what you have rather than trying to mimic the church down the street when you don't have their musicians."? If the church has no keyboard players, but does have 2 banjo players and a tuba...should we advise them to eschew the banjos in pursuit of a more reverential atmosphere than banjos typically are thought to produce?

I suppose I feel that if a church is singing Gospel truth from the heart, and simple care is taken to sing hymns that people are able to sing along with, if it is done within a wider context of a Bible-driven, Gospel-driven church life...then the atmosphere will naturally vary between exuberant joy, quiet reliance, high reverence, lament over sin and its effects, comfort from the nearness and intimacy with God, and steady faith in God to complete his work in them.
 

12strings

Active Member
I dont know if I should interject this, but I find some secular songs adaptable to Christian services. Like 'Annie's Song' by John Denver http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C21G2OkHEYo

Also I see relevancy in the KANSAS song "Dust In the Wind" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQem15Ow6hw

And Cat Stevens, "Morning has Broken" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0TInLOJuUM

Why cant these be adapted to church?


I would disagree somewhat with Luke's reasoning. I think it could easily be imagined that a certain secular song might just set the right atmosphere for a certain point being made in a worship service...

...but my answer is the same: I would not use them, for several reasons...one simple one being that it may lead people who know the song and the artist, to believe that John Denver's music is a good place to get theological truths about God...

This is already a problem in "popular Christianity" ....such that we think most country singers are Christians because they occasionally sing about Jesus...and some people get their theology from songs like "Jesus take the wheel" & "What if God was one of us."
 
Personally, I love the older songs more. We have the Thomas Hymnal and Sweet Songster that have these songs:

Sons we are through God's Election

Grace 'tis a charming sound

Afflictions, though they seem severe

Amazing Grace

Beside the gospel pool

Tarry with me

The day is past and gone

Guide me O' thou great Jehovah


Just to name a few...........
 
Because what matters is not whether or not "one is happy." What matters is whether or not One is happy.
Had another thought on this, Luke. You only quoted the first two sentences of my post. There was another thought near it's end that should apply in this discussion.

Why does anyone else care how we worship? That has always puzzled me. Be happy in how you worship, and please, don't be concerned about how we do.
Your comment implies that you know that we are not making Him happy. Is it because you know our music is not edifying to us and glorifying to Him, or is it just that you don't like contemporary music? If the former, how can you know that? If the latter, that's an issue for you to settle for yourself, not the rest of us. True?
 

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
And, for the sake of simplicity, when I say "HYMN", I am refering to ... the longest-running definition of hymn, which is simply "Sung praise to God."

Not a sufficient definition for the word as used in the days of the Apostles.

Just sayin'

You may proceed.
 

12strings

Active Member
Not a sufficient definition for the word as used in the days of the Apostles.

Just sayin'

You may proceed.

Where may I find this ancient definition of a hymn? Please point to either scripture, or some scholarly source from 2000 years ago.
 

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
Where may I find this ancient definition of a hymn? Please point to either scripture, or some scholarly source from 2000 years ago.
It's a synthesis from diverse sources.

First, bible commentators don't deny that different styles are intimated by the terms psalms, hymns or spiritual songs, but, because musicology is not their forte, they can't say what each was.
It is not easy to determine precisely what is the difference in the meaning of the words here used, or to designate the kind of compositions which were used in the early churches. Barnes NT Notes

A psalm was a hymn, and a hymn a song. Still there was a distinction between them as there is still. Charles Hodge
Second, the nature of ancient Greek music. Hymns and dithyrambs were both sung in praise to the Gods, but dithyrambs were wildly exurberant odes, bacchanalia. Descriptions which are not used for the greek form of hymn. (The word hymn in our language is much more generic than then.)

Third, the writings of ancients marking a distinction in the musical styles:
Now music was early divided among us into certain kinds and manners. One sort consisted of prayers to the Gods, which were called hymns; and there was another and opposite sort called lamentations, and another termed paeans, and another, celebrating the birth of Dionysus, called, I believe, "dithyrambs." And they used the actual word "laws," or nomoi, for another kind of song; and to this they added the term "citharoedic." All these and others were duly distinguished, nor were the performers allowed to confuse one style of music with another. The Laws, Plato
Fourth, but actually heading the list, the Scriptures themselves. The manner of interaction through psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs is starkly contrasted with the dithyrambic excesses of drunken banqueters in the Eph. 5 passage.

When an ancient Greek heard the word hymn, he didn't think of noble words in the style of a dithyramb. He thought of something in stark contrast to it.
 

12strings

Active Member
It's a synthesis from diverse sources.

First, bible commentators don't deny that different styles are intimated by the terms psalms, hymns or spiritual songs, but, because musicology is not their forte, they can't say what each was.
It is not easy to determine precisely what is the difference in the meaning of the words here used, or to designate the kind of compositions which were used in the early churches. Barnes NT Notes

A psalm was a hymn, and a hymn a song. Still there was a distinction between them as there is still. Charles Hodge
Second, the nature of ancient Greek music. Hymns and dithyrambs were both sung in praise to the Gods, but dithyrambs were wildly exurberant odes, bacchanalia. Descriptions which are not used for the greek form of hymn. (The word hymn in our language is much more generic than then.)

Third, the writings of ancients marking a distinction in the musical styles:
Now music was early divided among us into certain kinds and manners. One sort consisted of prayers to the Gods, which were called hymns; and there was another and opposite sort called lamentations, and another termed paeans, and another, celebrating the birth of Dionysus, called, I believe, "dithyrambs." And they used the actual word "laws," or nomoi, for another kind of song; and to this they added the term "citharoedic." All these and others were duly distinguished, nor were the performers allowed to confuse one style of music with another. The Laws, Plato
Fourth, but actually heading the list, the Scriptures themselves. The manner of interaction through psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs is starkly contrasted with the dithyrambic excesses of drunken banqueters in the Eph. 5 passage.

When an ancient Greek heard the word hymn, he didn't think of noble words in the style of a dithyramb. He thought of something in stark contrast to it.

"A hymn can be defined as a poetic statement of a personal religious encounter or insight, universal in its truth, and suitable for corporate expression when sung in stanzas to a hymn
tune."
- Austin C. Lovelace, THE ANATOMY OF HYMNODY (Chicago: GIA Publications, 1965), page 5

“A Christian hymn is a lyric poem, reverently and devotionally conceived, which is designed to be sung and which expresses the worshiper's attitude toward God, of God’s purpose in human life. It should be simple and metrical in form, genuinely emotional, poetic and literary in style, spiritual in quality, and in its ideas so direct and so immediately apparent as to unify a congregation while singing it.” - Carl F. Price, pamphlet, “WHAT IS A HYMN?”, the Hymn Society in the United States and Canada, 1937

“Do you know what a hymn is? It is singing to the praise of God. If you praise God and do not sing, you utter no hymn. If you praise anything which does not pertain to the praise of God – though in singing you praise, you utter no hymn. A hymn then contains these three things: song, and praise, and [reference to] God. Praise then of God in song is called a hymn.” - St. Augustine.


You may be correct that an Ancient Greek Pagan would have recognized a difference between a dithyramb and a hymn...I still don't think there is any evidence that Paul was writing against dithyrambs...but thanks for introducing me to a new word.

However....

1. Over the last 1500 years at least, a hymn has been recognized as a word simply to describe a song of praise to God...it has not be dependent on a certain musical style.

2. Nobody sing dithyrambs anymore, or even knows what they are.

3. Technically speaking, in Hymnology, a "Hymn" refers to the TEXT ONLY. The "HYMN TUNE" is the name for the music. So if you take "HYMN" and sing it with different musical styles...does it cease to be a "Hymn"?
 
Top