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The Case for Singing (OLD) Hymns

JohnDeereFan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
12Strings, I don't know why I didn't think of this before, but have you ever read the book, "Why Johnny Can't Sing Hymns: How Pop Culture Rewrote the Hymnal"?

It's a follow up to Why Johnny Can't Preach, which is also an excellent book.
 
That's what the fella thought who God killed for suring up the Ark of the Covenant with his bare hands.
Not even close. The method by which the Ark was moved was completely out of line with the Law. Are you going to tell me singing Chris Tomlin songs is "completely out of line with Scripture?"

If your motive really IS pure you'll want to worship him in reverence.
And you are making a judgment that, if isn't old and in the Baptist Hymnal, it isn't reverential. Not only is that rather haughty, it's just plain wrong.
 

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
You may be correct that an Ancient Greek Pagan would have recognized a difference between a dithyramb and a hymn...I still don't think there is any evidence that Paul was writing against dithyrambs...but thanks for introducing me to a new word.
He wasn't writing about music at all. He was writing about the sustenance and character of a Christian lifestyle using wine and music as metphors. The melody of which he spoke is in your heart to the Lord.

My point is that the Scriptures aren't silent about musical styles, as some assert. Quite the contrary, it is assumed that nature itself has taught us.

My point in this thread was merely that your definition is not the biblical definition. That was all.
 

Luke2427

Active Member
For Luke and whoever else:

As a devil's advocate: Is pursuing an "atmosphere" really that important? If

Atmosphere is exrtremely important.

God has Moses go through GREAT pains to design the tabernacle just so, to dress the high priest just so, to build the ark of the covenant just so. The tabernacle was to be so high and so wide. Trumpets were to be blown at certain times in various ceremonies, etc, etc, etc...

In Revelation we see a vivid description of the ambience and atmosphere of heaven about the throne of Christ. There are thunderings and lightenings and trumpets and beasts crying loudly particular praises unto him that sits upon the throne.

In Is. 6 we see a similar atmosphere described. We could go on and on.

Atmosphere is extremely important in the worship of God. The ambnience communicates the Gospel we preach alongside the actual preaching of it. Atmosphere should be appropriate and congruent to the nature and awesomeness of the God we preach.

by chance, you or I had the opportunity to instruct a small church in the area of musical worship, a church with very limited musical resources...is "atmosphere" really something that should be at the top of our list?

We should always press toward the ideal.

Start wherever you have to start but press continually toward the ideal.

Should not the focus be on singing good solid truth,

False dichotomy here. Focusing on good singing and preaching is linked to the atmosphere in which that good singing and preaching is done.

and perhaps some practical advice such as "use what you have rather than trying to mimic the church down the street when you don't have their musicians."?

By ALL means mimic the church down the street if they are prodiucing a loftier perspective of God than you are. By all means.

If the church has no keyboard players, but does have 2 banjo players and a tuba...should we advise them to eschew the banjos in pursuit of a more reverential atmosphere than banjos typically are thought to produce?

Probably.
 

12strings

Active Member
12Strings, I don't know why I didn't think of this before, but have you ever read the book, "Why Johnny Can't Sing Hymns: How Pop Culture Rewrote the Hymnal"?

It's a follow up to Why Johnny Can't Preach, which is also an excellent book.

I have read the Preaching one...it's very good. I haven't read the singing one.
 

Luke2427

Active Member
Not even close. The method by which the Ark was moved was completely out of line with the Law. Are you going to tell me singing Chris Tomlin songs is "completely out of line with Scripture?"

The spirit of the law was that God was to be greatly feared and reverenced.

Make the tabernacle exactly this way- why? Because God ought to be approached with the highest possible reverence.

Never put human hands on the ark of the covenant- why? Because God ought to be approached with the highest possible reverence.

Ananias and Saphira die in the church in the New Testament- why? Because God ought STILL to be approached with the highest possible reverence.

Chris Tomlin may be better than most. I do think he sounds rather effeminate when he sings, however.

And you are making a judgment that, if isn't old and in the Baptist Hymnal, it isn't reverential. Not only is that rather haughty, it's just plain wrong.

I do not care for about half of the songs in the Baptist Hymnal. I do not think a church should avoid new songs, either.

I think there are a lot of new songs that can be done tastefully with appropriate musical arrangements in church today.
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Chris Tomlin may be better than most. I do think he sounds rather effeminate when he sings, however.

You should have heard him when my husband raised the key to one of his songs for us to do in worship. It was hysterical!!!
 

Gina B

Active Member
Beautiful opening post. "Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence" is breathtaking. Fernando Ortega has a wonderful way of taking old hymns, some forgotten, and preserving their beauty and simplicity while reintroducing them to the world. I really like that about him. "Sing Allelu" is one of them.
It's nice to sit in silence and ponder our Creator while listening to "Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence." Sometimes will just bring you to your knees. Give it a listen!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8wl4u8lnDQs
 

Jordan Kurecki

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Personally, I don't think He cares what music I sing, as long as praising and glorifying Him is my motive.
How can you tell the difference between doing it make self feel good, and doing it because you want to praise and glorify him?

Do you think it's possible for someone to perform music in order to please self and make self feel good and deceive them self into thinking it's being done to praise the Lord?
 

Jordan Kurecki

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The spirit of the law was that God was to be greatly feared and reverenced.

Make the tabernacle exactly this way- why? Because God ought to be approached with the highest possible reverence.

Never put human hands on the ark of the covenant- why? Because God ought to be approached with the highest possible reverence.

Ananias and Saphira die in the church in the New Testament- why? Because God ought STILL to be approached with the highest possible reverence.

Chris Tomlin may be better than most. I do think he sounds rather effeminate when he sings, however.



I do not care for about half of the songs in the Baptist Hymnal. I do not think a church should avoid new songs, either.

I think there are a lot of new songs that can be done tastefully with appropriate musical arrangements in church today.
I agree with you my brother.
 

righteousdude2

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Personally thinking ....

Having argued in a few threads why I do not believe scripture explicitly or implicitly forbids any particular musical style...I would like to make an argument for those of you who attend churches that sing predominantly songs that would be categorized as "contemporary."

And, for the sake of simplicity, when I say "HYMN", I am refering to what most people consider hymns, that is OLD hymns. I personally hold to the longest-running definition of hymn, which is simply "Sung praise to God." So for me, all the songs, old and new, that we sing to God, are hymns. But for now, you know what I mean.


1. SINGABILITY: Even for the young, hip, & cool Generation; if we devote the music of our worship services to always singing the latest songs, always singing new songs, then congregational singing will suffer. Many contemporary songs were written for a solo performer, and as such have melodies, vocal ranges, and rhythms that are difficult for untrained musicians to sing. It is true that a younger generation who has grown up listening to pop music will be used to more syncopation, and so of course each congregation can handle different levels of rhythms, But people of any age can sing "When I survey the Wondrous Cross."

2. THEOLOGICAL DEPTH & BREADTH: Because we have inherited the best hymns from the last 500+ years, there are hymns that cover a wide range of topics, and multiple stanzas often tell a story that progresses from one place to another. Granted, this point is diminishing in importance as recently there have been some very good modern hymns written with deep theological content, as well as songs that cover a wider and wider range of topics; but there would still be, I believe a void of topics and depth if a church decided to never sing any old songs.

3. HISTORICAL CONNECTEDNESS: It is a mistake for modern worship leaders to think that we have just now discovered how to really worship God. Singing songs from generations long past reminds us that we stand on the shoulders of pastors and lay-people who have, in each generation, sought to help their people worship God in a Biblical and relevant way...this is what motivated Watts, Wesley, Luther, and many others to write some of the great hymns we still sing, or at least SHOULD sing.

4. MUSICAL RELEVANCE: Surprise! A younger generation needs the historical, theological value of hymns in an easily singable format...but also, they need something in corporate worship that they can't find outside of the church. If the church is a concert of great musicians performing impressive music, they can always find a better concert outside the church. If we get into an entertainment battle with MTV, MTV is going to win. (Even though MTV, "Music Television" no longer plays MUSIC VIDEOS...but don't get me started on that). The point is: Showing people that worship of God is different than a rock concert has value, and is relevant to what young people need. [aside]: This does not mean that the hymns must be accompanied in the same style or with the same instruments as they were 100 years ago, but care should be taken, as much as is possible, to leave the melody alone! This allows multiple generations to sing together...which leads us to #5:

5. GOSPEL WITNESS: [WARNING: Soapbox coming...and you thought I was already on it...] In Christ, there, is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female. The Gospel removes those divisions between groups who were formerly at odds with one another...but for some reason, young Christians can't worship with their Grandparents. Old Hymns, sung to the original melodies, with perhaps updated accompaniment, can be sung by all generations together. This serves as a powerful witness to visitors, showing that very different people can worship together enthusiastically with one voice, in unity under the Gospel. Singing hymns also helps to bridge the sometimes glaring gap between old and young, and if you are a young song-leader, tells your older saints that you value them and their ways.

Finally #1: anecdotally, for those of you that have attended some Christian concerts, or very contemporary worship services...have you not found it to be true that after a band sings a lot of their songs, they will sometimes sing/lead an old hymn, and it is at THOSE times that the people sing the loudest and with the most confidence? Even if it is a crowd of 20-somethings?

Finally #2: This is not a case to sing old songs EXCLUSIVELY, but a case to include them if you don't currently, and perhaps to increase their regularity.

God bless, congratulations upon reading my rant...you may now return to debating the merits and demerits of calvinism. (Sorry, I had to include it in this thread...unofficial BaptistBoard policy). :smilewinkgrin:

I can't see why a service can't combine the old with the new, so long as they have relevance and fit the theme of the service. I like to sing the old hymns as much as the new choruses, and I've always been able to merge them successfully! BTW - I like to use overheads of projected words on a screen, so no one has to fumble around with a hymnal trying to find the page!

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it :smilewinkgrin:
 

nodak

Active Member
Site Supporter
12strings--agree with your post completely.

Apparently my church does also, as we have recently revamped worship to include more hymns, for just those reasons.

And guess who is leading the charge? It is most definitely not our seniors, or aging baby boomers who want to keep their rock and ccm.

It is being led by the young marrieds and the teens and the college age kids.

Same folks leading the charge wanting more "reverence" in worship.

Boomers in jeans sitting next to younger folks who have dressed up.
 

Jkdbuck76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Any of you know what a Psalter is? I ask that because some churches ONLY sing the Psalms. The beauty of metrical psalms is that they we can sing them to the tune of Amazing Grace and other well-known tunes.

At one point, exclusive psalmody was quite the debate. But I guess it would/could solve the worship wars.....no more fighting about hymns vs contemporary. Just singing songs out of the Bible's song book. Something to ponder.
 

ktn4eg

New Member
For a psalter that puts the book of Psalms into English poetic form, I would recommend that you purchase a copy of The Poetic Interpretation of the Psalms, by Isaac Watts.

This 281-page paperback book can be purchased from Amazon for about eight dollars.

What Isaac Watts has done was to take the Psalms and re-arrange the words into English poetry. Then, based on the particular poem's meter, the reader is then referred to hymn tunes to which that poetic Psalm can be sung.

EXAMPLE: The twenty-third Psalm is converted into Watt's poem, "The Lord Our Shepherd," which is set to the short meter. IOW, you can sing his poem to such hymns as "Blest Be the Tie That Binds," or "Crown Him With Many Crowns."
 

OnlyaSinner

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I'm another one who appreciates and agrees with the OP. Have to add a note about 'adapting' "Morning Has Broken". No need - it's a Christian hymn first published in 1931, and set to an older tune from the Scottish Highlands. Cat Stevens is the one who did the adapting. Another comment: Our church folks love "And Can It Be?" - it's a challenging tune but Weslay's words are deep and reverent. For a really difficult song, try "Hallelujah For The Cross" - with a vocal range greater than that for the "Star Spangled Banner", but still a fine hymn even though my voice cracks if I try for the high notes.
 
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