The case for the possibility of losing salvation?

[Happy]

Tim71 ~ care to be more specific on what you specifically disagree with?
(ie in my post that begins "Salvation is provided for ALL."

Or should I presume it is every word I wrote you disagree with?

Thanks.
Happy

 

[Jope]

Deserting the faith, is not ~ having GAINED Salvation and then becoming UN-Saved.

...So Peter was not initially saved?

 

[Jope]

Anyone can have faith. It is precisely what one has WHEN they are following along, hearing, reading and learning ABOUT God. Take note of Judas. He followed, he learned, he listened, he believed ~ ie he had faith. But what he did NOT have was the indwelling Spirit.

Neither did any of the Apostles. Read Acts 1-2 again and John 7:39. "For the Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified" (NET).

 

[Happy]

...So Peter was not initially saved?

Initially? Meaning what time frame?

Becoming saved, IS in fact making a VOW (by your own word) to Believe and are agreeing to giving your life into the hands of Gods care and keeping.

Why would anyone make a VOW of submission to something they have not FIRST learned about?

Jesus basically approached men and said follow me, learn from me, and see for yourself if what you learn is something you can believe. It is basically the same for everyone. Learn ABOUT first, then decided IF you want to submit by vow.

Every man LEARNING About is being inspired by the Holy Spirit, BECAUSE every man learning ABOUT God is learning Gods Truth. It is the individual who decides to continue following and to submit by vow (his own word), or not.

Gen.3
[8] And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day:

Gen.9
[14] And it shall come to pass,

Num.11

1. [23] And the LORD said unto Moses, Is the LORD's hand waxed short? thou shalt see now whether my word shall come to pass unto thee or not.

Matt.9

1. [28] And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.

John 10
[38] But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

While God revealed Himself (with cover) to certain men, ALL men are exposed to His Works. The Scripture teaches IF you can thus believe and enjoy His Works, you can thus believe in Him.

Deut 23
[21] When thou shalt vow a vow unto the LORD thy God, thou shalt not slack to pay it: for the LORD thy God will surely require it of thee; and it would be sin in thee.

Ecc 5
[4] When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for he hath no pleasure in fools: pay that which thou hast vowed.
[5] Better is it that thou shouldest not vow, than that thou shouldest vow and not pay.

Following along in faith, learning ABOUT God, is one thing.
Making a VOW TO GOD, is another thing; which IS required as part of the process of becoming forgiven and saved and born again.

Scripture teaches to BE SURE BEFORE you ELECT to VOW your faith and your life unto the Lord.

2Pet.1

1. [10] Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Point being, you can not make a SURE ELECTION, without first knowing WHAT you are agreeing to.

The Disciples spent approx 3 years daily with the Lord, learning ABOUT GOD....and so did Paul.

What does a person of today spend, time-wise Learning ABOUT God? It varies. Some 52 times a year for an hour maybe. Some less, some more.

All the Disciples (less Judas), were given so much information, to whit not all of it was written.
All the Disciples received the INDWELLING Holy Spirit together, along with about 100 others all gathered together. <---> After Jesus' body ascended back up to Heaven.

John.21

1. [25] And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

 

[Tim71]

Tim71 ~ care to be more specific on what you specifically disagree with?
(ie in my post that begins "Salvation is provided for ALL."

Or should I presume it is every word I wrote you disagree with?

Thanks.
Happy

I agree with your post I'm sorry about the confusion. I was reading into something that was not there

 

[Happy]

Neither did any of the Apostles. Read Acts 1-2 again and John 7:39. "For the Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified" (NET).

Correct. The Disciples did not receive the INDWELLING HOLY SPIRIT, until AFTER Jesus bodily ascended up to Heaven.

 

[Happy]

Salvation is provided for ALL.

I disagree with this statement. If salvation is provided for ALL Why are ALL not saved?

Tim ~ let me clarify ~

Jesus' BODY paid the PRICE for ALL of mankind's corrupt flesh body's to BE forgiven.
Jesus' BLOOD paid the PRICE for ALL of mankind to RECEIVE Gods forgiveness.

So first you need to know....Mans body is corrupt. Mans blood (which IS the life of his body) is corrupt. And something "corrupt" is NOT sufficient (good/worthy) payment to pay to the Lord.

Jesus paid the "debt" with His pure body and His pure blood ONCE and FOR ALL.

Of the ALL (mankind), to RECEIVE the BENEFIT of Jesus' "offering", Each individual is REQUIRED to Believe and Submit unto the Lord.

It would be akin to you having 10 sons, and you paying for 10 gift cards. You give to each son such gift card. It's already paid for (by you). The GIFT CARD is ONLY GOOD, "IF" it is redeemed. It is still their GIFT, but does not benefit them, IF they do not redeem (spend) it.

Jesus already PAID for EVERYONE'S SALVATION. It is each individuals option to "redeem", take, receive, the benefit of the Salvation provided.....or not.

And IF and WHEN an individual "physically" dies, and such individual HAS NOT received the benefit of Jesus' Salvation.....too bad. They lost their opportunity to claim their Salvation.

 

[Tim71]

Salvation is provided for ALL.

I disagree with this statement. If salvation is provided for ALL Why are ALL not saved?

Tim ~ let me clarify ~

Jesus' BODY paid the PRICE for ALL of mankind's corrupt flesh body's to BE forgiven.
Jesus' BLOOD paid the PRICE for ALL of mankind to RECEIVE Gods forgiveness.

So first you need to know....Mans body is corrupt. Mans blood (which IS the life of his body) is corrupt. And something "corrupt" is NOT sufficient (good/worthy) payment to pay to the Lord.

Jesus paid the "debt" with His pure body and His pure blood ONCE and FOR ALL.

Of the ALL (mankind), to RECEIVE the BENEFIT of Jesus' "offering", Each individual is REQUIRED to Believe and Submit unto the Lord.

It would be akin to you having 10 sons, and you paying for 10 gift cards. You give to each son such gift card. It's already paid for (by you). The GIFT CARD is ONLY GOOD, "IF" it is redeemed. It is still their GIFT, but does not benefit them, IF they do not redeem (spend) it.

Jesus already PAID for EVERYONE'S SALVATION. It is each individuals option to "redeem", take, receive, the benefit of the Salvation provided.....or not.

And IF and WHEN an individual "physically" dies, and such individual HAS NOT received the benefit of Jesus' Salvation.....too bad. They lost their opportunity to claim their Salvation.

I agree Happy. I tried deleting this post before anyone saw it but you caught it before I deleted it. Of course I believe Titus 2:11. I have already noticed that I need to pay more attention to every word I post. I read something in your post that wasn't there. I am truly sorry for that I guess what I'm trying to figure out is this. Do you believe God was saving all of mankind?

 

[Tim71]

Jesus already PAID for EVERYONE'S SALVATION. It is each individuals option to "redeem", take, receive, the benefit of the Salvation provided.....or not

Do you believe man has made a choice to receive salvation?

 

[Happy]

I agree Happy. I tried deleting this post before anyone saw it but you caught it before I deleted it. Of course I believe Titus 2:11. I have already noticed that I need to pay more attention to every word I post. I read something in your post that wasn't there. I am truly sorry for that I guess what I'm trying to figure out is this. Do you believe God was saving all of mankind?

Apology accepted ~ although it was not necessary. Learning is a process and challenges arise.

Was Saving? I would say God created and loves His creations. And God desired that His creations would trust Him and love Him back. Of course God has the POWER to make mankind love Him, but that is not true love, if one has no choice in the matter. Thus we individually are given the choice; to love Him or Not.

There is NO harmony, where there is divide. God allows the divide. In fact Jesus pepped up the divide. Revealing more, including the Gentiles, etc. Which in Scripture you can see the reaction of the people at large.

We know God knows all things, thus we know He knew there would be divide. Some who would choose to love Him and others that can not believe what they can not see or experience.
We further know, BECAUSE God has prepared a place for those in standing WITH Him as well as a place for those in standing AGAINST Him.

Of course God desired ALL to become saved, but full well knows that is not to be the case.

We view God as Having Everything; but that is not the case. He waits to receive HIS inheritance.

His inheritance IS His creations WHO, love Him and believe in Him.

Do you believe God was saving all of mankind? Will God save all of mankind? No. All will not be saved.
All will come to believe, and bow to him, but all will not be saved. <-- another long lesson.

 

[Happy]

Do you believe man has made a choice to receive salvation?

It's an individual ongoing process, per individual men, who are and will make their own choices.

 

[Tim71]

I believe man cannot make the choice to come to God. He is spiritually dead Ephesians 2:1-3.

“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“We love him, because he first loved us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭4:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I agree God is not saving all of mankind

 

[Happy]

I believe man cannot make the choice to come to God. He is spiritually dead Ephesians 2:1-3.

“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“We love him, because he first loved us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭4:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I agree God is not saving all of mankind

All men born of the earth are spiritually dead. B-cuz all men born of the earth are born in sin.
It is the b-cuz all men born of the earth, are born from earthly mans seed, which IS corrupt, and corrupt seeds reproduce corrupt offspring.

Adam was not "earthly" born. He was created from the earth. Created in the "likeness" of God, and Adam was called "good". When Adam disobeyed God, he became corrupt, thus his offspring became corrupt, and thereafter, reproduced in the "likeness" of Adam.

Gen 1 [26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

Gen 1 [31] And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

Gen.5
[1] This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
[2] Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
[3] And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image;

By following Gods WAY, do we find our way, back to being LIKE God, ie reconciling unto God.

Yes, mankind is naturally born spiritually dead. It is hearing and learning and believing the TRUTH (Jesus, ie Word of God) that sets a man free from the bondage of death.

It is while a man IS spiritually dead that he becomes enlightened with the Word of God, and decides to submit...or not.

Eph.2
[1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[2] Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
[3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

God does not save the saved. He saves sinners. Thus while you are a sinner, is when you become saved. You make the choice AS A SINNER. However once saved, it is Gods Power that KEEPS you in faith.

Restoration and Saving is in regard to the soul.
Quickening is in regard to the natural spirit of man becoming a spiritual spirit, ie born again.

Quickening is also in regard to the dead body being raised up and returned to living ~ which is the soul returning to the body.

The soul brings the body to life (quickens the body).
The blood maintains the body's life.

Stop the blood flow..and The body dies, and the living soul departs the dying body. And IF the man HAS received a quickened spirit (ie born again spirit) when the body dies, the spirit also departs the dying body. As does the Holy Spirit depart a dying body.

A quickened man shall forever have life and be with the Lord.
A man not quickened, is a dead man, void of all life, and eventually, after sentencing, the body destroyed.

The JUDGE, is the JUDGE of the Quick and the Dead.

2Tim.4

1. [1] I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

 

[Happy]

“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Yes, he has chosen us. Why?
Because he knows all things. He already knows who will and who will not choose to love Him.
Those who will choose Him, He draws them near to Him.

Draws to Him? Yes. Puts things and people that will cross your path, sometime during your lifetime, that will spark your interest and draw you into hearing and learning and following and submitting.
ie, reconciling unto Him.

 

[Jope]

Initially? Meaning what time frame?

Becoming saved, IS in fact making a VOW (by your own word) to Believe and are agreeing to giving your life into the hands of Gods care and keeping.

Why would anyone make a VOW of submission to something they have not FIRST learned about?

Jesus basically approached men and said follow me, learn from me, and see for yourself if what you learn is something you can believe. It is basically the same for everyone. Learn ABOUT first, then decided IF you want to submit by vow.

Every man LEARNING About is being inspired by the Holy Spirit, BECAUSE every man learning ABOUT God is learning Gods Truth. It is the individual who decides to continue following and to submit by vow (his own word), or not.

Gen.3
[8] And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day:

Gen.9
[14] And it shall come to pass,

Num.11

1. [23] And the LORD said unto Moses, Is the LORD's hand waxed short? thou shalt see now whether my word shall come to pass unto thee or not.

Matt.9

1. [28] And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.

John 10
[38] But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

While God revealed Himself (with cover) to certain men, ALL men are exposed to His Works. The Scripture teaches IF you can thus believe and enjoy His Works, you can thus believe in Him.

Deut 23
[21] When thou shalt vow a vow unto the LORD thy God, thou shalt not slack to pay it: for the LORD thy God will surely require it of thee; and it would be sin in thee.

Ecc 5
[4] When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for he hath no pleasure in fools: pay that which thou hast vowed.
[5] Better is it that thou shouldest not vow, than that thou shouldest vow and not pay.

Following along in faith, learning ABOUT God, is one thing.
Making a VOW TO GOD, is another thing; which IS required as part of the process of becoming forgiven and saved and born again.

Scripture teaches to BE SURE BEFORE you ELECT to VOW your faith and your life unto the Lord.

2Pet.1

1. [10] Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Point being, you can not make a SURE ELECTION, without first knowing WHAT you are agreeing to.

The Disciples spent approx 3 years daily with the Lord, learning ABOUT GOD....and so did Paul.

What does a person of today spend, time-wise Learning ABOUT God? It varies. Some 52 times a year for an hour maybe. Some less, some more.

All the Disciples (less Judas), were given so much information, to whit not all of it was written.
All the Disciples received the INDWELLING Holy Spirit together, along with about 100 others all gathered together. <---> After Jesus' body ascended back up to Heaven.

John.21

1. [25] And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

eisegesis

 

[Jope]

Peter was initially saved, as Jesus says on at least two occasions. One is when Peter confesses Jesus as the Messiah, the son of God (Mt 16:17). The other is at a much later time, after Peter had fallen, when Jesus says that Peter will "turn back" to the faith (Luke 22:32): this indicates that Peter must have initially been saved, fell, and then got back on track. "When you have turned back, strengthen your brothers" (Luke 22:32, NET).

 

[Happy]

Peter was initially saved, as Jesus says on at least two occasions. One is when Peter confesses Jesus as the Messiah, the son of God (Mt 16:17). The other is at a much later time, after Peter had fallen, when Jesus says that Peter will "turn back" to the faith (Luke 22:32): this indicates that Peter must have initially been saved, fell, and then got back on track. "When you have turned back, strengthen your brothers" (Luke 22:32, NET).

Matt 16:17 Is a revealing that Gods spiritual "understanding" comes from God, not mankind.

Luke 22: [32] But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Those scriptures are not notice of Peter falling from faith, or having had received the indwelling spirit.

 

[Yeshua1]

1Cor.12

1. [12] For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

Matt.6

1. [25] Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

Flesh body everyone can SEE, and inner parts that cut open one can see (ie blood, bones, organs, etc), and also inner parts a man can NOT SEE, ie, thoughts, words, soul and spirit of a man.

We can "NAME" our parts, if we choose, (as some do here on this forum, name their word...( ie like Yeshua1 or stevenWM1963, etc.) God named His Word, Jesus.

We can "REVEAL" our word, by sending it forth out of our mouth...(ie speaking, writing) God sent His word forth out of His mouth in the likeness as a man.

We can "HIDE" our "spirit", (from other men) which is OUR TRUTH in our hearts; even while our minds can plot deceit and speak forth lies. We know our truth in our hearts, and so does God.

God named His Truth, Jesus.

As God declared He with in His Word and His Word is with Him, one with the other and one IS the other.

Isa 45 [23] I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Has every knee bowed or every tongue sworn yet? No. Thus Gods Word which has gone out of Gods mouth, is still being heard, spread, and with us today.

Isa 48 [3] I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass.

From the beginning has Gods word came forth out of His mouth.

Isa 55 [11] So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

What "thing" did not send His word to?

Mary's womb. And from Mary's womb was revealed the "holy thing", God sent to her womb, and what it was to be called.

Luke.1

1. [35] And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

And what happened to that holy thing; "the word of God in the likeness as a man" ?

John 19
[28] After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
[29] Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
[30] When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

After all things of Gods Word, manifested in a body, was accomplished, that BODY returned to God and His Word in Spirit remains on earth.

Heb.10

1. [5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Heb.10

1. [10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Isa 41
[4] Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.

Isa 48
[12] Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

1. 
   John.1
   [1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
   [2] The same was in the beginning with God.
   
   Rev 1
   [8] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
   
   
   
   

Jesus is not the Father, both are God, but not the same person, correct?

 

[Yeshua1]

I am one of those who believe that you can lose salvation. 1 Timothy 4:1 says that "in the later times some will desert the faith and occupy themselves with deceiving spirits and demonic teachings" (NET). If they desert the faith, they must have previously held to it. John 15 talks about believers who can be removed as a branch from a vine.

When Paul is writing to the Philippians that he "[was] sure of this, that [God] who began a good work in [them] will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (1:6), he was speaking to the ones who were known by God to be eternally saved. God exists outside of time.

In 1 John 2:19, John writes that if they were saved forever, they would have continued with them. Therefore, statements made to these initially saved people, like Paul's above, that God will complete their salvation to the end, are not really addressed to them, otherwise they would have continued meeting with them.

That being said, I do believe that you can regain salvation, just like Peter did (Luke 22:32). "When you have turned back, strengthen your brothers" (NET). James 5:19-20 says that "...if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone turns him back, he should know that the one who turns a sinner back from his wandering path will save that person’s soul from death..." (NET), showing that it is possible to be returned to the faith.

The truth is that it is impossible to lose salvation and to gain it back if losing it was possible , as per hebrews 6, which is not possible anyway!

 

[Yeshua1]

Peter was initially saved, as Jesus says on at least two occasions. One is when Peter confesses Jesus as the Messiah, the son of God (Mt 16:17). The other is at a much later time, after Peter had fallen, when Jesus says that Peter will "turn back" to the faith (Luke 22:32): this indicates that Peter must have initially been saved, fell, and then got back on track. "When you have turned back, strengthen your brothers" (Luke 22:32, NET).

Jesus actually assures us thru that example of peter that satan can ONLY do to us what God allows for him to do,, and that the really saved will be coming back to Jesus in sense of restoring our fellowship, not our salvation!