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The Catholic "Salvation"

D

dumbox1

Guest
Hi DHK,

A bit of rereading might be in order. Your quote included the words "Whoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by God through Jesus Christ ..."

It appears to me, as a casual observer, that you don't "know" this. You obviously don't believe it. Accordingly, this doesn't apply to you.

Carson, on the other hand, does know it. It does apply to him.

I, personally, do know it. It does apply to me.

Clear as a bell. But, like Singer, you might be well advised to read all of paragraphs 14-16. In fact, give me a minute and I'll post them for you. I'll even throw in paragraph 17 as a bonus.

God bless,

Mark H.
 

GraceSaves

New Member
DHK,

1) You have been baptized.
2) You were brought up in the Catholic faith, but have not demonstrated that you know what the Church authentically teaches. You often reject things that I, as a faithful Catholic, also reject, because they are not Catholic teachings, or because you do not fully understand them.

Neither I nor the Church knows your level of culpability, your understanding of true Catholic doctrine, etc, so no one has "damned" you. You will be judged like everyone else. One must KNOW that the Catholic Church teaches Truth and still reject it to fall under this condemnation.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by GraceSaves:
DHK,

I never said you weren't in the Catholic Church, so I have no idea what you're talking about.
This is your statement:
Your first "account" may also be false, because I have rarely seen that you have any idea what the Church teaches. You disagree with things that the Church does not teach; you attribute things to her falsely. Of course, after you are corrected, and you continue to do it, you are simply guilty of false witness or willful ignorance, both of which are sinful and which you show no remorse for.
My first account (that I was in the Catholic Church) is not false. Please don't call me a liar and lay such false accusations against me.
DHK
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by GraceSaves:
DHK,

1) You have been baptized.
2) You were brought up in the Catholic faith, but have not demonstrated that you know what the Church authentically teaches. You often reject things that I, as a faithful Catholic, also reject, because they are not Catholic teachings, or because you do not fully understand them.

Neither I nor the Church knows your level of culpability, your understanding of true Catholic doctrine, etc, so no one has "damned" you. You will be judged like everyone else. One must KNOW that the Catholic Church teaches Truth and still reject it to fall under this condemnation.
What you have written is foolishnes, and I think you know that. I have taken what I have known both from the Catholic Church, and from other Catholic sources, posted it and refuted it from the Bible. What you don't like is that it is so easily refuted from the Bible. When it is refuted from the Bible, then you go on the defensive, like you just have and call us names. You have no defence and resort to name calling. I pity you.
DHK
 

GraceSaves

New Member
Originally posted by DHK:
My first account (that I was in the Catholic Church) is not false. Please don't call me a liar and lay such false accusations against me.
DHK
DHK,

Look at your post that I was responding to. You said that you were condemend on "two accounts." I addressed those two accounts. Neither had anything to do with me saying you didn't attend a Catholic Church. The "accounts" were the reasons why you said Carson's words condemned you.

Not that difficult.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by Mark H.:
Hi DHK,

A bit of rereading might be in order. Your quote included the words "Whoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by God through Jesus Christ ..."

It appears to me, as a casual observer, that you don't "know" this. You obviously don't believe it. Accordingly, this doesn't apply to you.
Are you in the place of God, omniscient as to what I know and do not know. Amazing!! I knew enough that if I ever left the Catholic Church it would be a mortal sin, enough to condemn me to Hell for all eternity. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church--a fact taught both in the Catechism and in Vatican II. Why are you so adamant in denying your own doctrine?
DHK
 
D

dumbox1

Guest
Here we go, as promised. Paragraphs 14-17 from Lumen Gentium, the Second Vatican Counsel's Dogmatic Constitution on the Church.

(For anyone who wants to read the whole thing, it's available multiple places on the internet. The Vatican website, for one).

Paragraph 15, in particular, relates to Protestant Christians. I'd put it in flashing neon letters if I knew how.

14. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism (Cf. Mc 16, 16; Jn. 3, 5) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. The bonds which bind men to the Church in a visible way are profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical government and communion. He is not saved, however, who, though part of the body of the Church, does not persevere in charity. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but, as it were, only in a "bodily" manner and not "in his heart." All the Church's children should remember that their exalted status is to be attributed not to their own merits but to the special grace of Christ. If they fail moreover to respond to that grace in thought, word and deed, not only shall they not be saved but they will be the more severely judged.

Catechumens who, moved by the Holy Spirit, seek with explicit intention to be incorporated into the Church are by that very intention joined with her. With love and solicitude Mother Church already embraces them as her own.

15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God. They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ's disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.

16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God. In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh. (Cf. Rom. 9, 4-5) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues. (Cf. Rom. 1 l, 28-29.); But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(Cf. Acts 17,25-28) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved. (Cf. 1 Tim. 2, 4) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel. She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator. (Cf Rom. 1, 21, 25) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature", (Mk. 16, 16) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.

17. As the Son was sent by the Father,(Cf. Jn. 20, 21) so He too sent the Apostles, saying: "Go, therefore, make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days even to the consummation of the world". (Mt. 21,18-20) The Church has received this solemn mandate of Christ to proclaim the saving truth from the apostles and must carry it out to the very ends of the earth. (Cf. Acts 1, 8) Wherefore she makes the words of the Apostle her own: "Woe to me, if I do not preach the Gospel",(I Cor. 9 16) and continues unceasingly to send heralds of the Gospel until such time as the infant churches are fully established and can themselves continue the work of evangelizing. For the Church is compelled by the Holy Spirit to do her part that God's plan may be fully realized, whereby He has constituted Christ as the source of salvation for the whole world. By the proclamation of the Gospel she prepares her hearers to receive and profess the faith. She gives them the dispositions necessary for baptism, snatches them from the slavery of error and of idols and incorporates them in Christ so that through charity they may grow up into full maturity in Christ. Through her work, whatever good is in the minds and hearts of men, whatever good lies latent in the religious practices and cultures of diverse peoples, is not only saved from destruction but is also cleansed, raised up and perfected unto the glory of God, the confusion of the devil and the happiness of man. The obligation of spreading the faith is imposed on every disciple of Christ, according to his state. Although, however, all the faithful can baptize, the priest alone can complete the building up of the Body in the eucharistic sacrifice. Thus are fulfilled the words of God, spoken through His prophet: "From the rising of the sun until the going down thereof my name is great among the gentiles, and in every place a clean oblation is sacrificed and offered up in my name".(Mal. 1, 11) In this way the Church both prays and labors in order that the entire world may become the People of God, the Body of the Lord and the Temple of the Holy Spirit, and that in Christ, the Head of all, all honor and glory may be rendered to the Creator and Father of the Universe.

(Supplementary notes omitted; feel free to look them up in the original document.)
There it is. Read it. Understand it. THEN talk about it.

Mark H.
 

GraceSaves

New Member
DHK,

I don't recall calling you any names, but if I did, I apologize.

I have no doubt you were raised in the Catholic Church. I have doubt that you were properly catechized, because you have not refuted anything accept things that I also gladly refute. You were given an incomplete Catholic education or else you would be able to discuss Catholic doctrine within the Catholic framework. You have not ever demonstrated your capability to do so, and resort to the oh-so-typical anti-Catholic propaganda that would have us believe that the Church teaches things that aren't in its official teachings, like some sort of secret teaching that all Catholics believe without really knowing that they believe it.

Such a person as yourself who espouses such things clearly does not understand what the Church teaches, so you clearly have not rejected what the Church teaches. You merely reject what you forcibly think she teaches.

Please save your pity for someone in need of it. I believe in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, and I believe all that she teaches and has taught for 2,000 years.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by GraceSaves:

Look at your post that I was responding to. You said that you were condemend on "two accounts." I addressed those two accounts. Neither had anything to do with me saying you didn't attend a Catholic Church. The "accounts" were the reasons why you said Carson's words condemned you.

Not that difficult.
No, it is not that difficult if you can follow a little bit of logic. Carson was asked if he deliberately left the Catholic Church, would he be saved. He answered "No I would not be saved."

I deliberately left the Catholic Church. By Carson's own testimony then, "I am not saved." Does that Catholic Church have multiple sets of theologies? Is it that hypocritical? Or is it just that you are too simple minded that you cannot follow basic logic?
DHK
 

GraceSaves

New Member
DHK,

Nice of you to change your focus. You attended the Catholic Church and left it. These historical facts I accept.

What I denied was that you are not necessarily condemned on ACCOUNT of that. Again, you listed why you said the Catholic Church condemned you, and it was on TWO ACCOUNTS. I was not rejecting the historicity of what you said, but that you met the criteria (of leaving while knowing that the Church was true). You, obviously, left the Church believing it was NOT true. Two different things.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by GraceSaves:
DHK,

Nice of you to change your focus. You attended the Catholic Church and left it. These historical facts I accept.

What I denied was that you are not necessarily condemned on ACCOUNT of that. Again, you listed why you said the Catholic Church condemned you, and it was on TWO ACCOUNTS. I was not rejecting the historicity of what you said, but that you met the criteria (of leaving while knowing that the Church was true). You, obviously, left the Church believing it was NOT true. Two different things.
That was the major point I made in that post. I compared myself to Carson. I like many other ex-Catholics left because we have seen the heresies that the Catholic Church teaches. They have been well refuted in many threads with no come back, such as infant baptism. The Catholic Church has no case whatsoever, and therefore the thread was conveniently dropped as most threads are when the Catholics do not have an answer. It is kind of a switch and bait tactic. Look at all the recent topics started. Is it for the purpose that the old ones get shoved to the back that you have no answer for?

The second point I made and continue to make is that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. I will not back down. So far I have just quoted one source. I can quote from a few others, such as the catechism, which also clearly states it. You will come back and state that I don't understand the catechism and give me a different passage that will seem to say something else. You know what that will then demonstrate? That the catechism contradicts itself, and that is all.
DHK
 
D

dumbox1

Guest
Oh, we're doing the Catechism now? OK, here are the relevant paragraphs from that:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:


"Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:


"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation."

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."

(Footnotes omitted; again, I invite you to look them up in the original document if you're interested).
DHK, I can't understand this urge you seem to be experiencing to have somebody condemn you. But it's not in the Catechism.

Mark
 
D

dumbox1

Guest
A little more from the Catechism:

Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame." The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism - do not occur without human sin:

"Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers."

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers .... All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."

(Footnotes again omitted, because I'm too lazy to mess with them).
Mark
 

GraceSaves

New Member
DHK,

Most topics on this board are started by non-Catholics, so I don't see your point. Also, at times, I get tired of discussing something into its 12th page, or not being listened to (as is the case here).

But what would I know. I'm only "simple minded." Who was calling names again?
 
D

dumbox1

Guest
And one last chunk of the Catechism, for good measure:

Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God.... And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to salvation."

837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'"

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter." Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church." With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."

(Footnotes omitted, etc. etc.)
That'll do for now, unless I run across something else helpful as I page through.

Mark
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by Mark H.:
DHK, I can't understand this urge you seem to be experiencing to have somebody condemn you. But it's not in the Catechism.

Mark
There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.
The Cathechism may not say in those exact words. But it is very explicit. Go to the Catechism on the web and look at the Table of Contents. Start reading under the topic of Baptism. If one is not baptized according to the Catholic Church he is not regenerated (John 3:5), or born again. That is as clear enough statement to me that outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation. Salvation comes through the sacrament of baptism of the Catholic Church. That much is clear. You don't have to read very far to see that. Salvation is through baptism, the baptism of the Catholic Church. That is what your catechism says. All outside of that are therefore unsaved.
DHK
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by Mark H.:
There it is. Read it. Understand it. THEN talk about it.

Mark H.
Let's summarize it very briefly. First of all I already knew that the Catholic Church made a provision for Muslims. That is heretical, but nevertheless they did. I don't want to deal too much with the last section because it is a different topic entirely. It is one that all of Christendom (except for universalists) opposes. Salvation is only through Jesus Christ. That section opposes the Bible in that teaching. It is a teaching clearly contrary to what the Bible teaches. So we have got that out of the way.

The first section is addressed to Catholics only, and states quite clearly that the Catholic Church is the only way of salvation for them.

The second section (#15), would only address those who are baptized, would accept the sacraments, have devotion to Mary, etc., etc.

Therefore, in reality, you have eliminated almost all of true Christendom, every evangelical Christendom. Speaking in the realm of Christianity, there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. My statement still stands.
DHK
 
D

dumbox1

Guest
OK, onwards and upwards. Here's what the Catechism has to say, in pertinent part, "under the topic of Baptism":

VI. The Necessity of Baptism

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery." Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

(Footnotes omitted, emphasis in bold added).
Still no condemnation of DHK -- and weren't you baptized, anyway?

What else can I look up for you?

(Note: I'm only here for another half hour or so -- then I gotta go!)

Mark
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by Mark H.:
What else can I look up for you?

(Note: I'm only here for another half hour or so -- then I gotta go!)

Mark
How about this quote:
1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua),[4] and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word."[5]
That sounds clear enough to me.
 
D

dumbox1

Guest
DHK,

Paragraph 15 deals with non-Catholic Christians generally, including Protestants and the Orthodox churches.

In the particular sentence where it says that "Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God," it's generally talking about the Orthodox, since those things aren't shared by most Protestant groups. Which is why it says "many" -- it's only talking about some of the folks covered by the rest of the paragraph.

Mark H.
 
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