The Catholic "Salvation"

Hi DHK,

A bit of rereading might be in order. Your quote included the words "Whoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by God through Jesus Christ ..."

It appears to me, as a casual observer, that you don't "know" this. You obviously don't believe it. Accordingly, this doesn't apply to you.

Carson, on the other hand, does know it. It does apply to him.

I, personally, do know it. It does apply to me.

Clear as a bell. But, like Singer, you might be well advised to read all of paragraphs 14-16. In fact, give me a minute and I'll post them for you. I'll even throw in paragraph 17 as a bonus.

God bless,

Mark H.

 

DHK,

1) You have been baptized.
2) You were brought up in the Catholic faith, but have not demonstrated that you know what the Church authentically teaches. You often reject things that I, as a faithful Catholic, also reject, because they are not Catholic teachings, or because you do not fully understand them.

Neither I nor the Church knows your level of culpability, your understanding of true Catholic doctrine, etc, so no one has "damned" you. You will be judged like everyone else. One must KNOW that the Catholic Church teaches Truth and still reject it to fall under this condemnation.

 

This is your statement:

My first account (that I was in the Catholic Church) is not false. Please don't call me a liar and lay such false accusations against me.
DHK

 

What you have written is foolishnes, and I think you know that. I have taken what I have known both from the Catholic Church, and from other Catholic sources, posted it and refuted it from the Bible. What you don't like is that it is so easily refuted from the Bible. When it is refuted from the Bible, then you go on the defensive, like you just have and call us names. You have no defence and resort to name calling. I pity you.
DHK

 

DHK,

Look at your post that I was responding to. You said that you were condemend on "two accounts." I addressed those two accounts. Neither had anything to do with me saying you didn't attend a Catholic Church. The "accounts" were the reasons why you said Carson's words condemned you.

Not that difficult.

 

Are you in the place of God, omniscient as to what I know and do not know. Amazing!! I knew enough that if I ever left the Catholic Church it would be a mortal sin, enough to condemn me to Hell for all eternity. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church--a fact taught both in the Catechism and in Vatican II. Why are you so adamant in denying your own doctrine?
DHK

 

Here we go, as promised. Paragraphs 14-17 from Lumen Gentium, the Second Vatican Counsel's Dogmatic Constitution on the Church.

(For anyone who wants to read the whole thing, it's available multiple places on the internet. The Vatican website, for one).

Paragraph 15, in particular, relates to Protestant Christians. I'd put it in flashing neon letters if I knew how.

There it is. Read it. Understand it. THEN talk about it.

Mark H.

 

DHK,

I don't recall calling you any names, but if I did, I apologize.

I have no doubt you were raised in the Catholic Church. I have doubt that you were properly catechized, because you have not refuted anything accept things that I also gladly refute. You were given an incomplete Catholic education or else you would be able to discuss Catholic doctrine within the Catholic framework. You have not ever demonstrated your capability to do so, and resort to the oh-so-typical anti-Catholic propaganda that would have us believe that the Church teaches things that aren't in its official teachings, like some sort of secret teaching that all Catholics believe without really knowing that they believe it.

Such a person as yourself who espouses such things clearly does not understand what the Church teaches, so you clearly have not rejected what the Church teaches. You merely reject what you forcibly think she teaches.

Please save your pity for someone in need of it. I believe in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, and I believe all that she teaches and has taught for 2,000 years.

 

No, it is not that difficult if you can follow a little bit of logic. Carson was asked if he deliberately left the Catholic Church, would he be saved. He answered "No I would not be saved."

I deliberately left the Catholic Church. By Carson's own testimony then, "I am not saved." Does that Catholic Church have multiple sets of theologies? Is it that hypocritical? Or is it just that you are too simple minded that you cannot follow basic logic?
DHK

 

DHK,

Nice of you to change your focus. You attended the Catholic Church and left it. These historical facts I accept.

What I denied was that you are not necessarily condemned on ACCOUNT of that. Again, you listed why you said the Catholic Church condemned you, and it was on TWO ACCOUNTS. I was not rejecting the historicity of what you said, but that you met the criteria (of leaving while knowing that the Church was true). You, obviously, left the Church believing it was NOT true. Two different things.

 

That was the major point I made in that post. I compared myself to Carson. I like many other ex-Catholics left because we have seen the heresies that the Catholic Church teaches. They have been well refuted in many threads with no come back, such as infant baptism. The Catholic Church has no case whatsoever, and therefore the thread was conveniently dropped as most threads are when the Catholics do not have an answer. It is kind of a switch and bait tactic. Look at all the recent topics started. Is it for the purpose that the old ones get shoved to the back that you have no answer for?

The second point I made and continue to make is that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. I will not back down. So far I have just quoted one source. I can quote from a few others, such as the catechism, which also clearly states it. You will come back and state that I don't understand the catechism and give me a different passage that will seem to say something else. You know what that will then demonstrate? That the catechism contradicts itself, and that is all.
DHK

 

Oh, we're doing the Catechism now? OK, here are the relevant paragraphs from that:

DHK, I can't understand this urge you seem to be experiencing to have somebody condemn you. But it's not in the Catechism.

Mark

 

A little more from the Catechism:

Mark

 

DHK,

Most topics on this board are started by non-Catholics, so I don't see your point. Also, at times, I get tired of discussing something into its 12th page, or not being listened to (as is the case here).

But what would I know. I'm only "simple minded." Who was calling names again?

 

And one last chunk of the Catechism, for good measure:

That'll do for now, unless I run across something else helpful as I page through.

Mark

 

There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.
The Cathechism may not say in those exact words. But it is very explicit. Go to the Catechism on the web and look at the Table of Contents. Start reading under the topic of Baptism. If one is not baptized according to the Catholic Church he is not regenerated (John 3:5), or born again. That is as clear enough statement to me that outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation. Salvation comes through the sacrament of baptism of the Catholic Church. That much is clear. You don't have to read very far to see that. Salvation is through baptism, the baptism of the Catholic Church. That is what your catechism says. All outside of that are therefore unsaved.
DHK

 

Let's summarize it very briefly. First of all I already knew that the Catholic Church made a provision for Muslims. That is heretical, but nevertheless they did. I don't want to deal too much with the last section because it is a different topic entirely. It is one that all of Christendom (except for universalists) opposes. Salvation is only through Jesus Christ. That section opposes the Bible in that teaching. It is a teaching clearly contrary to what the Bible teaches. So we have got that out of the way.

The first section is addressed to Catholics only, and states quite clearly that the Catholic Church is the only way of salvation for them.

The second section (#15), would only address those who are baptized, would accept the sacraments, have devotion to Mary, etc., etc.

Therefore, in reality, you have eliminated almost all of true Christendom, every evangelical Christendom. Speaking in the realm of Christianity, there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. My statement still stands.
DHK

 

OK, onwards and upwards. Here's what the Catechism has to say, in pertinent part, "under the topic of Baptism":

Still no condemnation of DHK -- and weren't you baptized, anyway?

What else can I look up for you?

(Note: I'm only here for another half hour or so -- then I gotta go!)

Mark

 

How about this quote:

That sounds clear enough to me.

 

DHK,

Paragraph 15 deals with non-Catholic Christians generally, including Protestants and the Orthodox churches.

In the particular sentence where it says that "Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God," it's generally talking about the Orthodox, since those things aren't shared by most Protestant groups. Which is why it says "many" -- it's only talking about some of the folks covered by the rest of the paragraph.

Mark H.