The Catholic "Salvation"

[Justified Saint]

Now begin the usual self-congratualatory rounds of our non-Catholic brethren

Ok, so your resolution is that there is NO difference between Catholics and Protestants then (as far as salvation is concerned).
That's a reasonable assumption.

No this is not the asssumption. Rather the assumption is that there are many who honestly and sincerely seek the truth of Christ and want to partake in all the means of Christ's plan of salvation and freedom from sin but are not full memembers of the Catholic Church. This is carefully explained in Vatican II, but I suppose you wouldn't know anything about that.

I can't speak for what Carson said. I wasn't following the thread and I don't know the context of the debate or what he was talking about and I wouldn't trust any non-Catholic of quoting Carson especially from a thread that was several months ago. If Carson offended anyone I am sure he didn't mean to do so. One wouldn't think it that offensive considering many of the Baptist posters on here who are quite vocal about condemning all Catholics to hell and even individual posters on this site.

You afraid of looking at that scripture, J.S.?
He's my savior as well and putting out claims that there is no salvation outside of Catholicism and then trying to deny that's what it says and seeing statements like the one above made by Carson Weber doesn't do your cause any good,

The difference being that Catholics live by every word that comes from the mouth of Jesus. They live by the Son's commands to be baptized, to partake in the mystery of the Eucharist and all the sacraments and to listen to her Church.
Having the son is having faith, love and hope in him and obedience to his commands. Earlier in 1 John 5 it says that loving God is obeying his commands, not mocking them and declaring baptism or his own Church as unnecessary for example.

and I'm glad to expose you in this way.

You haven't exposed anything but your own ability to misrepresent. Singer, did Christ found a Church? Can someone be saved while having no connection or membership with this Church?

 

[dumbox1]

Everyone (and Singer in particular),

Sometimes, my jaw just drops to the floor.

On this thread alone, Singer has referred to the following:

"... the claim made by their own Vatican Council that there is NO SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH."

"1. 'Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation. Vatican Council"

"Now, tell me that salvation is not possible to those who attend Non-Catholic Churches and I'll be satisfied that you're a total Exclusivist !

**That was the belief of those who wrote the Vatican Council II."

"Now that doesn't describe anything for one seeking salvation and reading what the Vatican has to say about the issue...to quote: 'There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church'.

"Anyone with a brain the size of a pea would interpret that to mean that there is no salvation possible if one chooses to attend a Protestant church.

...

"Your description is faulty, Adam. Will you please try again. Actually, you're about as enigmatic as a Catholic when it comes to explaining what those ambiguous statements from the Vatican publictions project."

"That doesn't seem to work Adam, as any moron can read the Vatican Council's statement and all of the other supportive statements concerning salvation and understand them to mean that plainly ....Protestants have no chance at salvation until they become connected to the Catholic Church."

"Now, tell me that salvation is not possible to those who attend Non-Catholic Churches and I'll be satisfied that you're a total Exclusivist !

(**That was the belief of those who wrote the Vatican Council II.)" [Second time for this one].

That's 5 or 6 (at least, depending on how you count 'em) statements by Singer, the self-appointed expert, as to what the Second Vatican Council said, what it believed, how its documents should be interpreted, etc. God forbid anyone should disagree with Singer, the infallible interpreter of Vatican Council writings ... THAT HE'S NEVER EVEN READ!

No, Mark, I haven't read it, but it seems that it must be another denial of the statement that salvation is not possible outside the Catholic Church. Otherwise, why would you want me to read it...?

"Any moron" can read 'em, but only Singer -- who's never read them -- can understand them.

Umm ... just a thought, but mightn't it be a good idea to ACTUALLY READ WHAT THE COUNCIL SAID before claiming to know what it says, and picking fights over what it means with people who HAVE read it?

Incidentally, Singer, to quell your paranoia, I DO HEREBY DENY that I've "been instructed in internet forum debating."

I do, however, have at least the sense that God gave a turnip. Which is enough to make me realize that I should read a document before claiming to know what it says.

May God bless you all with at least that much sense -- I realize most of you already have far more.

Mark H.

 

[Gina B]

Grace Saves, why are you straight out lying? I never removed a single thread from this forum and I told you so, apart from the one by Carson.
Two of the moderators who had access to the thread haven't yet responded to my inquiry.
Here is a copy of the message I wrote to you:

Which forum was this post made in? It's not my experience that a post would be deleted without notifying the author. There is, however, a glitch in the system that occassionally deletes a post or thread and sends it to who knows where! This has happened to two of my threads in the last few months, and to a number of other people. Since nobody ever contacted you this is most likely what happened.
As soon as you let me know which forum it was in and if you can remember the title of it I'll ask in the mod forum and let you know. If it turns out that it's simply another mysteriously missing thread all I can tell you is that the evil graemlins stole it and feel free to restart it.
Gina

 

[Stephen III]

Gina here is a sampling of some of your recent posts. See if you as a Baptist can denote an alarming pattern. Perhaps Bob Ryan (conspiculosly absent from this topic)could relate some historical significance!?


Gina QUOTE: "There are rules and regulations.
One of them is that you cannot post anything that tries to persuade others against Christianity. I saw your post, titled "Why should a Baptist become Catholic", as a direct violation of that rule. I believe the majority of Catholics are not Christians."

Gina Quote: "I would think He'd be more concerned with His children snuggling up to false religion."


GINA QUOTE: "You and others were offered the privilege of joining with some forums restricted. You took that offer and used it to try to promote your false religion upon the baptist members and sway them from their beliefs"


GINA QUOTE: "In the meantime, any further discussion on the removal of that thread will not be answered by me on THIS thread.." .

Gina QUOTE: "Brother Adam, for clarification can you explain your denominational status? Are you baptist, Catholic, undecided, other?
Thanks."

And to another poster Gina QUOTE: "You list yourself as a baptist but have been attending mass for years and now are quite positive you're joining the catholic denom.
What do you believe that still makes you call yourself a baptist at this point in time?"



Gina Quote: "It is a major struggle for me on a daily basis to show more charity towards others. If you only knew what I WANTED to say!"


It seems we have the making for a new inquisition, what is next? I'm sure you do not speak as a mouthpiece of the Baptist denomination, but your abuse of authority should be so noted. To you alone it seems lies the determination as to what is a true and false belief system. And heaven help those (and evidentally their children) if they disagree with you. Does the phrase: Absolute authority absolutely corrupts" mean anything to you. Your abitrary censureship is deplorable. (ask Dr. Bob what that means).

 

[Gina B]

Yes, those are all my quotes. I believe Catholocism is a false religion, and my posts reflect yes.
No, I do not always sugar coat things and realize that on occasion I could be less sarcastic. However, being honest and being uncharitable are two different things. It is not uncharitable to call what I believe to be biblically wrong just that.
No, deleting one thread does not insinuate horribly oppressing censorship.
Abuse of any authority I have on this board would be to continue letting Baptists who come here be bombarded with Catholics trying to sway their beliefs.
Gina

 

[Stephen III]

But because its a Baptist Board, Catholics are fair game to the arbitrary censuring and misguided ramblings of a so-called moderator.
If your definition of Christian charity includes making sure there are no variances in belief from your own self-interpretation of scripture, well I for one think it is completely wrong-headed.
You've stated that Catholics are not Christian. You have the authority to censure anything posted. Where does this authority begin and end? Why, if you believe Catholics are not Christian, do you allow ANYTHING posted that serves as an exposition of Catholic teaching to be posted. We are all subject to your fickleness, are we not? Granted its your ball, you can take it home at anytime. But if the Baptist denomination is beyond reproach in their beliefs perhaps you should add this to the rulebook etc. Or better yet maybe it should state that it is beyond reproach just to the Catholic. (or anyone Gina decides is trying to influence "true believers" from their sure and steady anchor)

 

[Brother Adam]

She is right to a point you know? Crosswalk.com regularly bans members who are Catholic simply for being Catholic. If Carson posted one of the prayers of the Rosary that includes Mary's name, he would not be banned for the post.

If Catholicism is the one true religion, charitable arguing and prayer can be enough to sway a person. And as long as both are available to Catholics on this Baptist Board, they don't have too much to complain about- shoot they have me, a protestant, defending the misrepresentations of the faith. If Gina or another moderator asks that posts made to directly convert someone not be posted, oh well.

On another note, Gina has been uncharitable and downright mean in some of her posts. So has Carson. So have I. So have all of us. The way people treat each other on this board more than half of the time is disgusting, and as i said in another post- Screwtape would be laughing his head off right along with everyone else.

Finally, you are more than welcome to believe that Catholics think they can achieve or merit their salvation through works, but they ask that you don't authoritatively teach this is true- because its not. If you want to say Catholics believe this or that, your much better off saying "I think catholics believe this or that." As has been proven over and over and over, chances are- you are wrong.


And you know what? Its okay to be wrong sometimes

 

[dumbox1]

My hunch is that Carson's thread might not have bothered Gina if it'd had a different title.

But that's just a guess.

Mark

 

[Stephen III]

Adam, you've stated in your characteristically charitable way :

If Gina or another moderator asks that posts made to directly convert someone not be posted, oh well.


I do not have a problem with that policy. My beef would be more with the application of this rule.

Could not the correction of a misunderstanding of the faith be argued as being an attempt to convert those that may be susceptible to the exposition. How does one make the determination as to what crosses the line. I don't recall Carson's post as being a direct attempt at prosletyzing. And if it was then any defense could theoretically be categorized as such. Their are absolutes in truth, if the Catholic church believes that by the Divinely granted authority of Christ that the Church is that "beacon on a hill" for the proclaiming of Christ's absolute revealed truths, any defense and or correction of its tenets to those "seperated brethren" could be construed as prosletyzing.
It just seems too random and arbitrary that any moderator with a strong enough anti-Catholic persuasion could wield that kind of discretion. But this is their park, and I for one don't squabble with the fact that they make the rules and make the application of the rules, but perhaps a clear definition of what does and what does not constitute prosletyzing could be beneficial.
Oh and Adam, I must say that you are indeed an excellent Christian example of discussing matters of the faith and are a credit to the Christian community in your balance and charitableness.

 

[Gina B]

Any further complaints about the closing of Carson's thread must be addressed to the Webmaster, Barnabas, or Dr. Bob.
Any further comments on it are inappropriate and will be deleted from the forum. It has been discussed at length, and if anyone feels I am being unfair, mean, or uncharitable I appreciate you telling me, but it is not going to change the fact that I did not allow a proseletyzing thread on this forum and do not plan to allow them to continue in the future. If this is a problem for you it will do you no good to address it to me as that is the decision thus far. You will need to address an administrator/Webmaster with your concerns.
Once again, any more posts concerning the thread in question or Baptist Board rules as pertain to that thread or the rules against trying to sway Baptists to the Catholic religion will be deleted.
If you have a personal problem with me over that you really feel I must answer you may send a pm. Other than that it is not up for discussion in this forum and will be deleted.
Now, let's get back to the topic of this thread, which is the Catholic definition of salvation.
Gina

 

[Singer]

(J.S.)
You haven't exposed anything but your own ability to misrepresent. Singer, did Christ found a Church? Can someone be saved while having no connection or membership with this Church?

The answers are respectively...No and Yes .

(Mark)
Umm ... just a thought, but mightn't it be a good idea to ACTUALLY READ WHAT THE COUNCIL SAID before claiming to know what it says, and picking fights over what it means with people who HAVE read it?

Am I supposed to apologize for misrepresenting statements said with the gall that some of these Cahtolics portray:

"Well, considering the fact that the Church is essentially a heavenly reality and that to be a faithful Catholic is to be fully united to the Bride of Christ, everyone in heaven will
be Catholic. The Baptists, I believe, will be unpleasantly surprised that they will have to become fully Catholic when they go to Heaven. That's where Purgatory will play a big part."



He wouldn't surely have meant that would he?

The Church is referred to as the Body of Christ in Scripture.

The writer was referring to the Catholic Church.

trying2understand wrote on May 31,2003
"Hey, I'll come right out and say it. Salvation is through the Church. Christ established one Church for that very purpose. It is through the Church that Christ established that we find Christ and it is through the Church that we live a Christ filled life. If you guys want to putter around the edges in your little nondenominational assembly, that's up to you.

But if you want to meet our Lord in the flesh in this life, you'll have to meet Him in the
Church. "

He surely could NOT have meant the Catholic Church could he..? I misrepresented him for disputing that the only avenue to Christ in this life is in the [Catholic] Church? I don't think so, Mark.

"The Blessed Virgin is the wife of God. God prohibits adultery, therefore, it is unthinkable
that He would turn His wife over to another." (Catholic Convert) Brother Ed "In Christ and the BlessedVirgin" thread on Baptist Board ..June 2003

Wife of God ?



"Let's understand something. The Catholic FAITH is the Faith which Christ God gave to the apostles to give to the whole earth, NOT the heresies of Protestantism and its multitudinous varients. Your disenchantment with the Catholic
Faith is your own personal argument with Christ Himself Who established the Faith and to Whom you shall answer oneday for opposing it. "...........
CATHOLIC CONVERT, April 2003

So I misrepresent the truth by disclaiming the Catholic Faith as what Chrsit gave the apostles?

You guys sure have a twisted idea on alot of topics. I'm almost sick just re-reading them from my own archives.

But beware; that alone just gave me a new vigor.

Singer

 

[Brother Adam]

And that is that

Although, I'm not sure that there is much left to say on the original topic either! It's been pretty thoroughly discussed.

 

[Brother Adam]

Scratch that. . . . .

 

[dumbox1]

Hi Singer,

If you want to talk about what CC, or Trying, or whoever else, might have said to you last year, give me a link to the appropriate thread and I'll look at the conversation in context and let you know if I think they've misstated anything, or if you're misrepresenting what they've said.

(Please limit it to one or two short threads -- I don't have the time or the inclination to play janitor, mopping up your questions about the entire universe of posts on these boards).

But, since you're changing the subject to "what these individuals said last year," does that mean you've given up your (incorrect) claims about "what you think the Vatican Council supposedly said," which is what my post was about?

Thanks,

Mark

 

[Stephen III]

testing, testing, test test
All properly baptized Christians are in a communion with the Catholic Church, Whether this is in a complete/perfect or imperfect manner, is dependent on the adherence to the other tenets of the faith, so revealed through the Holy Spirit's quideance of the magisterium of the Holy Catholic Church (so we Catholics may believe).
Your individual adherence to this concept may vary. And whether you are inclined to investigate this claim can not be addressed nor evidentally encouraged in this forum. This statement is subject to "moderation", in regards to its undefined motivation.

This statement has not been evaluated by the FDA.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by GraceSaves:
DHK,

Your "two accounts" that you are not saved. Carson demonstrated the first one, and then you just threw the second one in, as if he insinuated it. That is not the case, and your second argument is false.

Your first "account" may also be false, because I have rarely seen that you have any idea what the Church teaches. You disagree with things that the Church does not teach; you attribute things to her falsely. Of course, after you are corrected, and you continue to do it, you are simply guilty of false witness or willful ignorance, both of which are sinful and which you show no remorse for.

Your best defence Grace, is to call me a liar. In doing so you call evry other ex-Catholic on this board such as Hank and others the same thing. We are all liars. That is a lame excuse, and slander. Demonstrate that I have never been in the Catholic Church, or shut up about it and retract your statements.
According to Carson I am not saved because I have left the Catholic Church. The statement still stands. It is stands as truth. Accept it.

Let me repost for you benefit from the Documents of Vatican II:
The People of God: Chapter 2, Paragraph 14, pp. 32,33

This sacred Synod turns its attention first to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon sacred Scripture and tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile is necessary for salvation.* For Christ, made present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique Way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mk.16:16; Jn.3:5) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church. Whoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by God through Jesus Christ, would refuse to enter her or to remain in her could not be saved.

*To indicate the importance of union with the Church, the Council first reiterates the traditional Catholic teaching on the necessity of the Church for salvation. This necessity is a double one arising both from the positive precept of Christ that men should enter the Church and from the efficacy of the Church’s means of grace (especially her proclamation of the faith and her administration of the sacrament of baptism) for the imparting and sustaining an authentically Christian life.
The Documents of Vatican II

the Council first reiterates the traditional Catholic teaching on the necessity of the Church for salvation.
--This is a footnote contained within the documents themselves. Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation. It is a well established fact.
Another well established fact is the Catholics on this board who can read the facts and continue to deny them.
DHK

 

[GraceSaves]

Gina,

I apologize for saying that you deleted the thread. Going back and reading it, I'm not sure why I said that. I would edit it now if I could, but the time has passed for that. I meant that it had been deleted, and that you never responded to me on the issue.

I might add, again, that while you say we aren't Christians, Clint says that "all who post here are Christians."

DHK,

I never said you weren't in the Catholic Church, so I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Brother Adam]

The Protestant: You say there is no salvation outside the Church and you mean it like we think you do.

The Catholic: No it doesn't say what you think it says, you have to take it in context as I will explain.

The Protestant: No way, no explainations, it says no salvation outside the Church, and I refuse to take it in context.

The Catholic: Your interpretation is incorrect though.

The Protestant: No it isn't

The Catholic: Yes it is

The Protestant: No it isn't

The Catholic: Yes it is

The Protestant: No it isn't

The Catholic: Yes it is

The Protestant: No it isn't

The Catholic: Yes it is

The Protestant: No it isn't

The Catholic: Yes it is

The Protestant: No it isn't

The Catholic: Yes it is

The Protestant: No it isn't

The Catholic: Yes it is


Look familiar?

 

[dianetavegia]

Clint said:

All participants in this forum are Christian, though we hail from a variety of denominations.

Since the Catholic's keep quoting this, does that mean they'll now admit that Baptists ARE Christians?

Diane

 

[Brother Adam]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
Clint said: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> All participants in this forum are Christian, though we hail from a variety of denominations.

Since the Catholic's keep quoting this, does that mean they'll now admit that Baptists ARE Christians?

Diane </font>[/QUOTE]They always have. . .