The Catholic "Salvation"

[Brother Adam]

LOL, DHK is still convinced I'm a Catholic. Although its interesting he keeps calling me a Catholic when I'm a Baptist. That has to say something.

I'm going to open Salvation Part II as we've moved away from talking solely about Catholic Salvation to more general terms. I'm going to bring some of DHK's last post into that one to start our discussion.

 

[Brother Adam]

"12 original disciples" There were 12 Apostles. The disciples numbered into the thousands during Jesus' ministry. A disciple is a follower of Jesus Christ. Today we would consider anyone who is "saved" a disciple.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by Brother Adam:
"12 original disciples" There were 12 Apostles. The disciples numbered into the thousands during Jesus' ministry. A disciple is a follower of Jesus Christ. Today we would consider anyone who is "saved" a disciple.

Conversely, I would add that if one is not a disciple, that one is not saved. And we cannot follow Christ unless we are willing to deny ourselves and take up our crosses daily. However, God doesn't desire any (including professed "Christians") to perish, but to come to repentance.

 

[D28guy]

BrotherAdam,

I said...

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, (being good) but by faith in Jesus Christ. (faith alone) Even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, (faith alone) and not by the works of the Law (being good) for by the works of the Law (being good) shall no flesh be justified."

Which agrees with Ephesians...

"For it is by grace that you are saved, through faith. (faith alone) And that not of yourself (nothing we do contributes) it is the gift of God. Not of works. (nothing we do contributes) lest any man should boast"

And you said...

"You are adding to scripture what is not there as noted by your use of parantheses."

I'm sure you really believe that I was "adding to scripture". It is definetly in the best interest of the CC to accuse us of that at any opportunity.

Of course, I was doing no such thing.

"The "works of the law" is not "being good". The works of the law refer to the Old Testament levitical system of sacrafice which became void when Christ became the Lamb of God slain for all the sins of the world."

Nope.

Check the 7th chapter in Romans, verses 4-7...

"Therefroe my brethren, you also have become dead to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might be married to another---to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. For when we were in the flesh the passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. But now we have been delivered from the Law, haiving died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit, and not the oldness of the letter. What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? On the contrary, I would not have known sin except thought the Law. For I would not have known covetiousness, except the law had said 'You shall not covet'."

Obviously, God is not referring to only the ceremonial laws when He teaches us that we are freed from the law, and that our goodness does not contribute to our justification, since He here uses one of the 10 commandmnets as He teaches us that we are no longer under the Law.

And He is referring to our adding any goodness of ours to our justification.

Any goodness. Under the Law, not under the Law. Goodness done in the flesh, or goodness done through the Spirit. Goodness done "in order to obligate God, as if we owed Him anything", or goodness done through gcace.

We are justified before God through faith alone, and God feels so strongly about that that He curses any "gospel" that incudes our goodness in any way.

"When this took place levitical law became void and Christ left us with the new covenant and new law by which Christians are to abide."

Yes, He did. And the "new covenant" includes that we are justified through faith alone, with our goodness contributing nothing to it.

God bless,

Mike

 

[D28guy]

BrotherAdam,

I said...

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, (being good) but by faith in Jesus Christ. (faith alone) Even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, (faith alone) and not by the works of the Law (being good) for by the works of the Law (being good) shall no flesh be justified."

Which agrees with Ephesians...

"For it is by grace that you are saved, through faith. (faith alone) And that not of yourself (nothing we do contributes) it is the gift of God. Not of works. (nothing we do contributes) lest any man should boast"

And you said...

"You are adding to scripture what is not there as noted by your use of parantheses."

I'm sure you really believe that I was "adding to scripture". It is definetly in the best interest of the CC to accuse us of that at any opportunity.

Of course, I was doing no such thing.

"The "works of the law" is not "being good". The works of the law refer to the Old Testament levitical system of sacrafice which became void when Christ became the Lamb of God slain for all the sins of the world."

Nope.

Check the 7th chapter in Romans, verses 4-7...

"Therefroe my brethren, you also have become dead to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might be married to another---to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. For when we were in the flesh the passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. But now we have been delivered from the Law, haiving died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit, and not the oldness of the letter. What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? On the contrary, I would not have known sin except thought the Law. For I would not have known covetiousness, except the law had said 'You shall not covet'."

Obviously, God is not referring to only the ceremonial laws when He teaches us that we are freed from the law, and that our goodness does not contribute to our justification, since He here uses one of the 10 commandmnets as He teaches us that we are no longer under the Law.

And He is referring to our adding any goodness of ours to our justification.

Any goodness. Under the Law, not under the Law. Goodness done in the flesh, or goodness done through the Spirit. Goodness done "in order to obligate God, as if we owed Him anything", or goodness done through gcace.

We are justified before God through faith alone, and God feels so strongly about that that He curses any "gospel" that incudes our goodness in any way.

"When this took place levitical law became void and Christ left us with the new covenant and new law by which Christians are to abide."

Yes, He did. And the "new covenant" includes that we are justified through faith alone, with our goodness contributing nothing to it.

God bless,

Mike

 

[D28guy]

BrotherAdam,

I said...

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, (being good) but by faith in Jesus Christ. (faith alone) Even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, (faith alone) and not by the works of the Law (being good) for by the works of the Law (being good) shall no flesh be justified."

Which agrees with Ephesians...

"For it is by grace that you are saved, through faith. (faith alone) And that not of yourself (nothing we do contributes) it is the gift of God. Not of works. (nothing we do contributes) lest any man should boast"

And you said...

"You are adding to scripture what is not there as noted by your use of parantheses."

I'm sure you really believe that I was "adding to scripture". It is definetly in the best interest of the CC to accuse us of that at any opportunity.

Of course, I was doing no such thing.

"The "works of the law" is not "being good". The works of the law refer to the Old Testament levitical system of sacrafice which became void when Christ became the Lamb of God slain for all the sins of the world."

Nope.

Check the 7th chapter in Romans, verses 4-7...

"Therefroe my brethren, you also have become dead to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might be married to another---to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. For when we were in the flesh the passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. But now we have been delivered from the Law, haiving died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit, and not the oldness of the letter. What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? On the contrary, I would not have known sin except thought the Law. For I would not have known covetiousness, except the law had said 'You shall not covet'."

Obviously, God is not referring to only the ceremonial laws when He teaches us that we are freed from the law, and that our goodness does not contribute to our justification, since He here uses one of the 10 commandmnets as He teaches us that we are no longer under the Law.

And He is referring to our adding any goodness of ours to our justification.

Any goodness. Under the Law, not under the Law. Goodness done in the flesh, or goodness done through the Spirit. Goodness done "in order to obligate God, as if we owed Him anything", or goodness done through gcace.

We are justified before God through faith alone, and God feels so strongly about that that He curses any "gospel" that incudes our goodness in any way.

"When this took place levitical law became void and Christ left us with the new covenant and new law by which Christians are to abide."

Yes, He did. And the "new covenant" includes that we are justified through faith alone, with our goodness contributing nothing to it.

God bless,

Mike

 

[D28guy]

BrotherAdam,

I said...

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, (being good) but by faith in Jesus Christ. (faith alone) Even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, (faith alone) and not by the works of the Law (being good) for by the works of the Law (being good) shall no flesh be justified."

Which agrees with Ephesians...

"For it is by grace that you are saved, through faith. (faith alone) And that not of yourself (nothing we do contributes) it is the gift of God. Not of works. (nothing we do contributes) lest any man should boast"

And you said...

"You are adding to scripture what is not there as noted by your use of parantheses."

I'm sure you really believe that I was "adding to scripture". It is definetly in the best interest of the CC to accuse us of that at any opportunity.

Of course, I was doing no such thing.

"The "works of the law" is not "being good". The works of the law refer to the Old Testament levitical system of sacrafice which became void when Christ became the Lamb of God slain for all the sins of the world."

Nope.

Check the 7th chapter in Romans, verses 4-7...

"Therefroe my brethren, you also have become dead to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might be married to another---to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. For when we were in the flesh the passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. But now we have been delivered from the Law, haiving died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit, and not the oldness of the letter. What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? On the contrary, I would not have known sin except thought the Law. For I would not have known covetiousness, except the law had said 'You shall not covet'."

Obviously, God is not referring to only the ceremonial laws when He teaches us that we are freed from the law, and that our goodness does not contribute to our justification, since He here uses one of the 10 commandmnets as He teaches us that we are no longer under the Law.

And He is referring to our adding any goodness of ours to our justification.

Any goodness. Under the Law, not under the Law. Goodness done in the flesh, or goodness done through the Spirit. Goodness done "in order to obligate God, as if we owed Him anything", or goodness done through gcace.

We are justified before God through faith alone, and God feels so strongly about that that He curses any "gospel" that incudes our goodness in any way.

"When this took place levitical law became void and Christ left us with the new covenant and new law by which Christians are to abide."

Yes, He did. And the "new covenant" includes that we are justified through faith alone, with our goodness contributing nothing to it.

God bless,

Mike

 

[Doubting Thomas]

So, is the Baptist board whacked out again?

 

[faithcontender]

by Brother Adam,

LOL, DHK is still convinced I'm a Catholic. Although its interesting he keeps calling me a Catholic when I'm a Baptist. That has to say something.

In my opinion, based on your many posts, you are baptist in name but true catholic in heart.

 

[D28guy]

4 POSTS???

What the heck is going on here?

Mods....please delete 3 of my posts up there. I have no idea how that happened!

Thanks,

Mike

 

[Bro. Curtis]

O.K. I stand corrected. I mixed the two.

But my point still stands. Can one be saved, and live outside the will of God, no matter how miserable it makes them ?

And Adam, I think you're Catholic. You certainly sound like one. No offense, just an observation.

 

[Brother Adam]

"Can one be saved, and live outside the will of God, no matter how miserable it makes them ?"

Baptists would say as a general rule the person was never saved in the first place. Christ says that those who never show fruit will be cut off and thrown into the fire. I'd say that while this may be true it does not negate the fact that we are saved only through faith in Christ.

"And Adam, I think you're Catholic. You certainly sound like one. No offense, just an observation."

None taken. I don't really mind what people have to say about me. Heck, if I was everything folks said was true, I'd the "most mature godly man" and "the godhating anti-christ" all at the same time. I know what I am though, and that is a Baptist. I respect and defend Catholics for what they truly believe, even if I dont' agree with it. They deserve to be heard for what they truly believe and not what a bunch of Jack Chick disciples have to say.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

I would disagree with your view of what most Baptists believe. I take the case of Elvis Presley, who I know was saved as a youth. His life, outside of the will of God, was miserable. But I do believe he was saved.

An O.T. picture would have to be Solomon. If what you say I believe is true, was true, then I would be saying Solomon was never saved, as evidenced by his later life. But that's not what I say. I say Solomon was saved, and lived outside the will of God, and it cost him just about everything. But I'm willing to bet a dollar that Solomon is in Heaven.

And I know you didn't mean me, but I'm no Jack Chick fan.

 

[D28guy]

Brother Adam,

"They deserve to be heard for what they truly believe"

Thats why I spend so much time in the catholic encyclopedia, the on-line catechism, official Catholic web-sites, the Vatican web-site, Catholic apologetic web-sites, etc.

Thats how I can be sure that they do present a false gospel and promote idolatry, etc.

God bless,

Mike

 

[Brother Adam]

I would disagree with your view of what most Baptists believe

Perhaps "most" wasn't the correct qualifying word, that just seems to be what I see quite a bit. I know not all Baptists are like that (you, me, a few others ).

And I know you didn't mean me, but I'm no Jack Chick fan

Nope, didn't necessarily mean you, but I'm sure glad to hear that!

 

[Brother Adam]

Mike, interestingly enough we have come to different conclusions, studing many of the same things.

I don't believe they promote a false-gospel or practice idolatry. Then again, I also go and ask them about what I read and listen and try to understand. I try to give the benefit of the doubt, and its often proven me right.

 

[dumbox1]

Hi Singer,

I haven't forgotten the post I owe you -- just got sidetracked for two days by stomach flu. (Not my favorite way to lose 5 pounds!)

Anyhow, I'm going to print out that post from T2U and take it home this evening, and hopefully I'll have a chance to look it over and post something tomorrow. (Forgive me if I fail to discuss whatever's gone on in this thread in the meantime -- it seems to be growing like a weed, and I don't have time to look at it all!)

Mark H.

 

[Gina B]

This thread is approaching 20 pages, so get your last comments in before then folks.
Gina

 

[Singer]

Thanks, Mark, I'll be looking forward to your return.

Singer

 

[Stephen III]

Singer,

It appears this thread is petering out. Would you care to join in the "christian salvation" thread adam started? I would appreciate viewing your insight into the 3 questions I've posed there that originated here. (or anyone else, it just seems a little slow this evening.)

If not thanks for the consideration
God bless
Steve