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The Catholic "Salvation"
- Thread starter Brother Adam
- Start date
Brother Adam,
I indicated that I spend considerable time in sources like the Catholic Encyclopedia, online Catechism, Catholic apologetic web-sites, and the Vatican web-site, and then you said...
Well, when you ask them do you think they are going to say this to you?...
"Yes Adam, let me explain to you how we distort the gospel into gospel of works that will not save, and how we worship the mere human being Mary."
Of course not.
You left out the most important part...
Dig into their doctrines and practices, ask them about what they believe, and after you listen to them(giving them the benefit of the doubt), then compare what they believe practice and promote with Gods only truth source, His scriptures.
If it contradicts, it must be rejected.
And by the way, do you give us the same "benefit of the doubt" that you give them? Those of us like myself, Singer, Bob Ryan and many others, do you think of us as "those hateful Catholic bashers" who are nothing more than Jack Chick groupies?(I personally do not care for his tract style, btw)
Or do you keep as an option the possibility that we just might be right?
God bless,
Mike
I indicated that I spend considerable time in sources like the Catholic Encyclopedia, online Catechism, Catholic apologetic web-sites, and the Vatican web-site, and then you said...
Yes, we do."Mike, interestingly enough we have come to different conclusions, studying many of the same things."
I really think you have just identified your problem. You told me that you go to the official CC sources as I do, and you said you go and "ask them" about their beliefs and "give them the benefit of the doubt"."I don't believe they promote a false-gospel or practice idolatry. Then again, I also go and ask them about what I read and listen and try to understand. I try to give the benefit of the doubt, and its often proven me right."
Well, when you ask them do you think they are going to say this to you?...
"Yes Adam, let me explain to you how we distort the gospel into gospel of works that will not save, and how we worship the mere human being Mary."
Of course not.
You left out the most important part...
Dig into their doctrines and practices, ask them about what they believe, and after you listen to them(giving them the benefit of the doubt), then compare what they believe practice and promote with Gods only truth source, His scriptures.
If it contradicts, it must be rejected.
And by the way, do you give us the same "benefit of the doubt" that you give them? Those of us like myself, Singer, Bob Ryan and many others, do you think of us as "those hateful Catholic bashers" who are nothing more than Jack Chick groupies?(I personally do not care for his tract style, btw)
Or do you keep as an option the possibility that we just might be right?
God bless,
Mike
DHK-
Hello. I must respond to you with all due respect that I've never heard that Catholics rely on a Church OVER Jesus to save us. That is an accusation that comes only with those who seem to vehemently disagree with the Catholic Church. I AM a Catholic, and I DO believe that my salvation comes ONLY through Jesus by His grace which I did NOTHING to warrant and that is EXACTLY what the Catholic Church teaches. See paragraph #1996 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I hope this clears up some pretty big misunderstandings that still remain between us Christians to this day. - God bless! - Michelle
Hello. I must respond to you with all due respect that I've never heard that Catholics rely on a Church OVER Jesus to save us. That is an accusation that comes only with those who seem to vehemently disagree with the Catholic Church. I AM a Catholic, and I DO believe that my salvation comes ONLY through Jesus by His grace which I did NOTHING to warrant and that is EXACTLY what the Catholic Church teaches. See paragraph #1996 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I hope this clears up some pretty big misunderstandings that still remain between us Christians to this day. - God bless! - Michelle
D28guy-
God's blessings to you! I couldn't help but reply to you because you STILL think that Catholics worship Mary when we don't. Please see paragraphs 968-971, especially the latter paragraph for a more balanced view of our beliefs regarding Mary. We also believe that to worship her would be blasphemous against Christ! I assure you that I'm NOT trying to "hoodwink" you. - God bless! - Michelle
God's blessings to you! I couldn't help but reply to you because you STILL think that Catholics worship Mary when we don't. Please see paragraphs 968-971, especially the latter paragraph for a more balanced view of our beliefs regarding Mary. We also believe that to worship her would be blasphemous against Christ! I assure you that I'm NOT trying to "hoodwink" you. - God bless! - Michelle
Michelle,
Greetings to you.
You said...
Let me ask you this. Do you believe, as I do, that every day in the baby extermination centers here in the US that little babies are being legally killed?
What if a representitive of that baby extermination center said to you "Why, we are not killing babies here! We are "eliminating" a "product of conception". Dont you see?"
Would you say "Oh. Well, that clears that up. I was wrong"
Of course not.
The Catholic church is not going to go around telling people they are worshipping Mary, but they are promoting the worship of Mary, none the less. Millions worship her.
Here is a prayer that was prayed by Pope Pius XII, in 1950...
"Enraptured by the splendour of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world we cast ourselves into your arms, O immaculate mother of Jesus, and our mother Mary, confident of finding in you our most loving heart, and your most loving heart, the appeasement of our ardent desire and a safe harbour from the tempest which besets us on every side. Though degraded by our faults and overwhelmed by infinite misery we adore and praise the purest richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature. From the moment of your conception until the day in which, after your assumption into heaven, he crowned you Queen of the Universe. Crystal fountain of faith, bathe our minds with eternal truths, fragrant lily of all holiness, captivate our hearts with your heavenly perfume. O conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and a slave of hell. O well beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Bend tenderly, O Mary, over our aching wounds. Convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed, comfort the poor and the humble, quench hatred, sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and protect the holy church. In your name, resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognise that they are all brothers. Receive, O most sweet mother, our humble supplication above all obtained for us, that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which is sung today around your altars. You are all beautiful, O Mary, you are the glory, you are the joy, you are the honour of our people.
Michelle, I would not pray that prayer if I were told to in front of a firing squad.
Here are 2 official Catholic prayers that are clearly saying things in prayer to Mary, that should only be said to Almighty God...
The Memorare
Remember, O most loving Virgin Mary,
that never was it known that anyone
who fled to your protection,"
It is Amighty God to whom we are to flee for protection.(Psalm 125:2, just one among multitudes)
We are never told to flee to a mere human being in heaven, like Mary, instead of God.
"...implored your help,
or sought your intercession was left unaided."
Jesus Christ is our heavenly intercessor(Romans 8:34, just one among multitudes), not the sinner saved by grace Mary.
"Inspired with this confidence, we turn to you,
O Virgin of virgins, our Mother."
We are never instructed to "turn to" Mary for our heavenly protection, but to God Almighty.(John 16:33, just one among multitudes.)
"To you we come, before you we stand,
sinful and sorrowful."
The one to who a lost sinner is accountable regarding their sinful and lost condition is Almighty God, not Mary.(Isaiah 45:23, one among multitudes)
The one to whom a child of God is to come for help with sin problems is Almighty God, not Mary.(Romans 14:12, one among multitudes)
"O Mother of the Word Incarnate,
do not despise our petitions,
but in your mercy hear us and answer us.
Amen."
Our petitions are to be taken to Almighty God, in the name of Jesus Christ. Not Mary.(Phillipians 4:6, one among multitudes)
Hail Holy Queen
There is no "Holy Queen" to whom we are to "Hail". There is a "King of Kings, and Lord of Lords", but no Queen.(Revelation 19:16)
In the old testament the "Queen of Heaven" is mentioned a few times, and she is anything but godly.(Jeremiah 44:15-17)
"Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy,..."
The scriptures identify God as being the "God of all mercy".(Ephesians 2:4)
"...our life, our sweetness and our hope!"
Almighty God is identified as being our "life",(Collosians 3:4) and our "hope".(1 Timothy 1:1)
"To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve;"
We are to cry out to God, not Mary.(Luke 18:7)
"to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping
in this valley of tears."
It is to God Himself that we are directed to call upon in our time of need.(Romans 10:14, one among multitudes)
"Turn then, most gracious advocate,
thine eyes of mercy toward us,..."
The Lord Jesus Christ is our advocate, not Mary.(1 John 2:1)
"...and after this our exile,
show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus."
Well, we have an example of one person for sure who has seen the resurrected Lord in glory, John, the human instrument through whom God wrote the book of revelation. And Mary was not needed in any way to "show" Jesus Christ to Him.
And by the way, when Mary...supposedly..."shows" Jesus to someone in heaven, will Jesus be a helpless little baby being held in His triumphant mothers arms? I only ask because of all those multitudes and multitudes of Catholic and EOC paintings that depic Mary and Jesus that way in heaven.
Michelle, these prayers are idolatrous and are an abomination. And these are just the proverbial "tip of the iceberg", as they say. We havent even gotten into the apparitions and visitations and shrines and pilgrimages and processions through the streets holding up an idol of Mary to be adored and worshipped by the thousands upon thousands participating in these processions.
It is sickening, and I cannot imagine how it must sicken, and sadden God.
God bless,
Mike
Greetings to you.
You said...
You may not worship Mary, I dont know, and you obviously dont believe the CC does. You probably feel that since they use a completly different word for it(Dulia, or Hyperdulia worship, rather than "Latria" worship), that that turns it into merely veneration, and makes everything OK."God's blessings to you! I couldn't help but reply to you because you STILL think that Catholics worship Mary when we don't. Please see paragraphs 968-971, especially the latter paragraph for a more balanced view of our beliefs regarding Mary. We also believe that to worship her would be blasphemous against Christ! I assure you that I'm NOT trying to "hoodwink" you. - God bless! - Michelle"
Let me ask you this. Do you believe, as I do, that every day in the baby extermination centers here in the US that little babies are being legally killed?
What if a representitive of that baby extermination center said to you "Why, we are not killing babies here! We are "eliminating" a "product of conception". Dont you see?"
Would you say "Oh. Well, that clears that up. I was wrong"
Of course not.
The Catholic church is not going to go around telling people they are worshipping Mary, but they are promoting the worship of Mary, none the less. Millions worship her.
Here is a prayer that was prayed by Pope Pius XII, in 1950...
"Enraptured by the splendour of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world we cast ourselves into your arms, O immaculate mother of Jesus, and our mother Mary, confident of finding in you our most loving heart, and your most loving heart, the appeasement of our ardent desire and a safe harbour from the tempest which besets us on every side. Though degraded by our faults and overwhelmed by infinite misery we adore and praise the purest richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature. From the moment of your conception until the day in which, after your assumption into heaven, he crowned you Queen of the Universe. Crystal fountain of faith, bathe our minds with eternal truths, fragrant lily of all holiness, captivate our hearts with your heavenly perfume. O conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and a slave of hell. O well beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Bend tenderly, O Mary, over our aching wounds. Convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed, comfort the poor and the humble, quench hatred, sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and protect the holy church. In your name, resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognise that they are all brothers. Receive, O most sweet mother, our humble supplication above all obtained for us, that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which is sung today around your altars. You are all beautiful, O Mary, you are the glory, you are the joy, you are the honour of our people.
Michelle, I would not pray that prayer if I were told to in front of a firing squad.
Here are 2 official Catholic prayers that are clearly saying things in prayer to Mary, that should only be said to Almighty God...
The Memorare
Remember, O most loving Virgin Mary,
that never was it known that anyone
who fled to your protection,"
It is Amighty God to whom we are to flee for protection.(Psalm 125:2, just one among multitudes)
We are never told to flee to a mere human being in heaven, like Mary, instead of God.
"...implored your help,
or sought your intercession was left unaided."
Jesus Christ is our heavenly intercessor(Romans 8:34, just one among multitudes), not the sinner saved by grace Mary.
"Inspired with this confidence, we turn to you,
O Virgin of virgins, our Mother."
We are never instructed to "turn to" Mary for our heavenly protection, but to God Almighty.(John 16:33, just one among multitudes.)
"To you we come, before you we stand,
sinful and sorrowful."
The one to who a lost sinner is accountable regarding their sinful and lost condition is Almighty God, not Mary.(Isaiah 45:23, one among multitudes)
The one to whom a child of God is to come for help with sin problems is Almighty God, not Mary.(Romans 14:12, one among multitudes)
"O Mother of the Word Incarnate,
do not despise our petitions,
but in your mercy hear us and answer us.
Amen."
Our petitions are to be taken to Almighty God, in the name of Jesus Christ. Not Mary.(Phillipians 4:6, one among multitudes)
Hail Holy Queen
There is no "Holy Queen" to whom we are to "Hail". There is a "King of Kings, and Lord of Lords", but no Queen.(Revelation 19:16)
In the old testament the "Queen of Heaven" is mentioned a few times, and she is anything but godly.(Jeremiah 44:15-17)
"Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy,..."
The scriptures identify God as being the "God of all mercy".(Ephesians 2:4)
"...our life, our sweetness and our hope!"
Almighty God is identified as being our "life",(Collosians 3:4) and our "hope".(1 Timothy 1:1)
"To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve;"
We are to cry out to God, not Mary.(Luke 18:7)
"to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping
in this valley of tears."
It is to God Himself that we are directed to call upon in our time of need.(Romans 10:14, one among multitudes)
"Turn then, most gracious advocate,
thine eyes of mercy toward us,..."
The Lord Jesus Christ is our advocate, not Mary.(1 John 2:1)
"...and after this our exile,
show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus."
Well, we have an example of one person for sure who has seen the resurrected Lord in glory, John, the human instrument through whom God wrote the book of revelation. And Mary was not needed in any way to "show" Jesus Christ to Him.
And by the way, when Mary...supposedly..."shows" Jesus to someone in heaven, will Jesus be a helpless little baby being held in His triumphant mothers arms? I only ask because of all those multitudes and multitudes of Catholic and EOC paintings that depic Mary and Jesus that way in heaven.
Michelle, these prayers are idolatrous and are an abomination. And these are just the proverbial "tip of the iceberg", as they say. We havent even gotten into the apparitions and visitations and shrines and pilgrimages and processions through the streets holding up an idol of Mary to be adored and worshipped by the thousands upon thousands participating in these processions.
It is sickening, and I cannot imagine how it must sicken, and sadden God.
God bless,
Mike