The Catholics are not lost

[seraphim79]

To a degree you're right, to a degree you're wrong.

It is the priest whom they ask for forgiveness, but not for his forgiveness at the same time. They believe the priest intercedes for them, the same as they believe about Mary. They still believe the salvation comes from God, so far as I know, but don't believe in talking directly to Him.

I will point out that hasn't the Pope declared protestants brothers? Catholics realize our faiths are different, but today, it is mostly the protestants that fire most of the angry words. We call them heritics, and they bless us in the name of Mary. We call them polythiests, they explain that Mary is not God, and then call us brothers. We call them heathen, they smile, and go about their way.

I see the catholic faith as goofy, treating the Pope almost like God Himself, but understand that their tradition and up bringings have confused them, not a hatred of the truth. They worship Jesus as well.

I hope to see the faces of all those Baptist hardliners in heaven. When they see people they KNEW wouldn't be there.

I myself have been told I can't possibly be saved. Well, to that, all I can say is, "see you there".

Actually I was raised Catholic and now I consider myself a non-labled Christian. But Catholics 100% believe in talking directly with God, they just also believe that the more people that can ask with them will have a better result. It is similar to asking your boss for a Christmas party, if only you ask he will say no, but if the whole office asks then he will probably say yes, especially if one of the people asking him is his mother. And of course they worship Jesus, to the highest degree. I have followed Jesus my whole life.

Also, the priest can not forgive a sin. Only God can forgive because only God knows what is in your heart. Basically it is like having an adviser, and telling him that you are struggling with this sin or that sin and then the priest can help to guide you, like guiding you to pray about this or that or guiding you to spend more time doing acts of charity or asking that you spend more time with your family depending on what your sin is.

I agree that Catholics tend to be "goofy" in a lot of their traditions and that is partly why I am no longer Catholic. Much of what they believe is antiquated tradition and not coming from the bible. But I assure you they are Christian and believe that Jesus Christ is the Lord and Saviour of all.

 

[Amy.G]

Actually I was raised Catholic and now I consider myself a non-labled Christian. But Catholics 100% believe in talking directly with God, they just also believe that the more people that can ask with them will have a better result. It is similar to asking your boss for a Christmas party, if only you ask he will say no, but if the whole office asks then he will probably say yes, especially if one of the people asking him is his mother. And of course they worship Jesus, to the highest degree. I have followed Jesus my whole life.

Also, the priest can not forgive a sin. Only God can forgive because only God knows what is in your heart. Basically it is like having an adviser, and telling him that you are struggling with this sin or that sin and then the priest can help to guide you, like guiding you to pray about this or that or guiding you to spend more time doing acts of charity or asking that you spend more time with your family depending on what your sin is.

I agree that Catholics tend to be "goofy" in a lot of their traditions and that is partly why I am no longer Catholic. Much of what they believe is antiquated tradition and not coming from the bible. But I assure you they are Christian and believe that Jesus Christ is the Lord and Saviour of all.

Then Catholics should read the book of Hebrews. This is exactly what Paul was telling the Jews who were going back under the law instead of grace. We have one high priest, Jesus Christ. We are all individual priests under His headship. We are told unequivally that we are to call no one else father, but God alone. We (as individuals) have access to the very throne of God and may go boldly before Him because of our standing in Christ. Priests, in the Catholic sense, have no place in the body of Christ.

 

[Amy.G]

Those of you who believe you know someone who is "saved" and is Catholic, ask them this question. When were you saved? The answer my come as a surprise to you. Some will say since they were baptized, others might say they were allways. Chew on that.

I understand your point and it is a valid one. The person that I spoke of earlier who was Catholic and was born again had come to our bible study on Knowing God, by Henry Blackaby. She came because she had a friend in our class. Her testimony was that of someone who was born again. I don't know if she remained the Catholic church as I never saw her after the study was finished. Hopefully, she left it.

 

[D28guy]

It is certainly possible for an individual Catholic to stumble upon saving faith.

But without a doubt it isnt the norm. The Catholic Church proclaims a false and non-saving gospel, hence its very difficult for a Catholic to find salvation....which is through an intimate relationship with Christ...not "sacraments"...by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

The Catholic Church condemns that truth.

Sadly,

Mike

 

[Agnus_Dei]

....which is through an intimate relationship with Christ...not "sacraments"...by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

Show the class again just where in Scripture do we read salvation is by grace alone, faith alone, and Christ alone?

In the risen Christ
-

 

[Amy.G]

Show the class again just where in Scripture do we read salvation is by grace alone, faith alone, and Christ alone?

In the risen Christ
-

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God,



Jhn 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God,



Jhn 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

I'm sorry, I'm a slow learner...just where's the word alone again?

InXC
-

 

[annsni]

I'm sorry, I'm a slow learner...just where's the word alone again?

InXC
-

Well, I don't see "and" anywhere in there.

 

[Amy.G]

I'm sorry, I'm a slow learner...just where's the word alone again?

InXC
-

We are saved by grace through faith, period. In all of Paul's teachings, he makes it clear that we are saved by the grace of God, not of any works that we may do. This is the central theme of all of his teachings.

The entire NT teaches that faith in Christ only is what saves.


Act 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

 

[Darron Steele]

The Catholics are not lost

This is an idea that we have our protestant ansestors to blame for. They were so angry at being called heritics they thought it was a good stratigy to say it back. Course both side thought war was also a good debate tactic so lets rise above, shall we?

The catholics genuinely believe in Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord, they repent on a regular basis and those whom take their faiths seriously, commit their lives to the Lord. By the baptist definition: accept, believe, committ; they are saved.

In the 1500's, intelligible copies of Scripture were relatively a rarity, and literacy was not the norm. It is not entirely unreasonable that nastiness occured both ways, as most people could not read Christ and His follower's teachings about how to treat people. Now, with so many of us with access to the Scriptures, we ought to know how Christ wants us to treat people, regardless of if they are Christians or not.

I am in agreement with you that the Catholic organization does not have the power to make a follower of Christ into an unsaved person.

However, I do not believe that just because someone is Catholic, that s/he will be saved. I also believe that the Catholic organization, with its emphasis on itself and on its own precepts, does not point people to Christ.

In the copies of Scripture that I read, to be a Christian is more than about portion/s of Sunday. Being a Christian is a daily following of Jesus Christ in one's own life.

If a person comes to Christ as Lord and Savior, and comes to follow His teachings, and simultaneously holds Catholic religious tenets, s/he is still a Christian. Romans 8:38b-9 assures Christians “neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord” (ESV). The Catholic organization is made of created materials and people, so I do not believe the Catholic organization has the power to make a Christian into an unsaved person.

 

[Linda64]

If a person comes to Christ as Lord and Savior, and comes to follow His teachings, and simultaneously holds Catholic religious tenets, s/he is still a Christian. Romans 8:38b-9 assures Christians “neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord” (ESV). The Catholic organization is made of created materials and people, so I do not believe the Catholic organization has the power to make a Christian into an unsaved person.

That is an impossiblity. One cannot drink from the cup of devils while sitting at the table of the Lord:

1 Corinthians 10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

Ephesians 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

Jesus said:

Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

The Catholic Church (I see that you called it an "organization") does not have the power to save anyone either....Salvation is in Jesus Christ ALONE (no works)...not in the Catholic Church. Acts 4:12 states this:

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

If you claim to be saved and you are still holding on to the false teachings/tenets of the RCC, then your salvation isn't in Christ, it's in the RCC...and that's not biblical salvation. Romans 8:38b-39 are for those who are IN CHRIST...not those who still hang on to false teachings and proclaim themselves to be saved. The entire 8th chapter of Romans needs to be read in context....it was written to those who are ALREADY IN CHRIST...to the brethren...the saved.

 

[Darron Steele]

That is an impossiblity. One cannot drink from the cup of devils while sitting at the table of the Lord:

1 Corinthians 10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

Ephesians 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

Jesus said:

Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

The Catholic Church (I see that you called it an "organization") does not have the power to save anyone either....Salvation is in Jesus Christ ALONE (no works)...not in the Catholic Church. Acts 4:12 states this:

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

If you claim to be saved and you are still holding on to the false teachings/tenets of the RCC, then your salvation isn't in Christ, it's in the RCC...and that's not biblical salvation. Romans 8:38b-39 are for those who are IN CHRIST...not those who still hang on to false teachings and proclaim themselves to be saved. The entire 8th chapter of Romans needs to be read in context....it was written to those who are ALREADY IN CHRIST...to the brethren...the saved.

Linda, this is not worth arguing with you about.

There are people who love to hate Catholicism and/or Catholics, and are going to think whatever they want. They hate Catholicism and/or Catholics so much that they wish anything less than hatred for Catholics was punishable by Hell. They will disregard any factual first-hand evidence about what Catholics believe and/or do, and will always prefer false accusations. They will quote Scriptures that do not even address the issues to make it look Scriptural to do these things too. Arguing with such persons is only a frustrating exercise in futility.

My remarks, from which you quoted only a small part, were for Darren. I know that the Vatican and its organization have no power regarding salvation yea or nay, and I know what the written Word of God teaches about salvation and how it relates to this matter. I will go with it.

 

[D28guy]

Agnus Die,

I posted...

"It is certainly possible for an individual Catholic to stumble upon saving faith.

But without a doubt it isnt the norm. The Catholic Church proclaims a false and non-saving gospel, hence its very difficult for a Catholic to find salvation....which is through an intimate relationship with Christ...not "sacraments"...by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

The Catholic Church condemns that truth."

And you said...

"Show the class again just where in Scripture do we read salvation is by grace alone, faith alone, and Christ alone?"

* 1st of all, if I posted all the scriptures that proclaim that truth I would be sitting here for hours.

* 2ndly, I have shared multitudes of those scriptures specifically with you many times in the past, so why are you asking again?

* 3rdly, if I took the time to post them for you once again again I have... unfortunetly, and very sadly...no confidence that you would have any ability to *see* the truth of it.

So why should I waste my time?




The more profitable advice I could give you would be this:

Make the attitude of your prayers, concerning this topic, "Lord, open my eyes, that I might behold wonderful things from your scriptures and word"

I have found for 26 years now as a Spirit born person that beautiful things happen when a person asks God to perform that miracle for one of His people.

Mike

 

[Matt Black]

Thou misunderstandeth. Christ is the head of the body, who is the Church. Being made up of the Bride, or believers. These are the Church.

No misunderstanding, but a question to you: is the Church Christ's Body, yes or no?

 

[Matt Black]

I don't need to. The Roman Catholic Church has never changed from what the Council of Trent teaches. Please tell me, what changes were made from this joint declaration?

Broadly speaking, the Catholics accepted that man is saved by grace not works and that God not man takes the initiative in that; the Lutherans acknowledged that it is insufficient to just intellectually assent to the Gospel but that that must be lived out on a daily basis. But why do you ask me: surely you're capable of reading the text for yourself using the link I gave you?

 

[Matt Black]

Agnus Die,

I posted...




And you said...



* 1st of all, if I posted all the scriptures that proclaim that truth I would be sitting here for hours.

* 2ndly, I have shared multitudes of those scriptures specifically with you many times in the past, so why are you asking again?

* 3rdly, if I took the time to post them for you once again again I have... unfortunetly, and very sadly...no confidence that you would have any ability to *see* the truth of it.

So why should I waste my time?




The more profitable advice I could give you would be this:

Make the attitude of your prayers, concerning this topic, "Lord, open my eyes, that I might behold wonderful things from your scriptures and word"

I have found for 26 years now as a Spirit born person that beautiful things happen when a person asks God to perform that miracle for one of His people.

Mike

Agnus' question remains: where is the Scripture or Scriptures which teach that one is saved by faith alone? You haven't answered that. Neither has anyone else. Chapter and verse, please, in each case,

 

[Crabtownboy]

Agnus' question remains: where is the Scripture or Scriptures which teach that one is saved by faith alone? You haven't answered that. Neither has anyone else. Chapter and verse, please, in each case,

You can't unless you throw out James' "Faith without works is dead."

 

[trustitl]

Agnus' question remains: where is the Scripture or Scriptures which teach that one is saved by faith alone? You haven't answered that. Neither has anyone else. Chapter and verse, please, in each case,

Don't know who said we are saved by faith alone, but that isn't true. We are saved by grace. The truth regarding this is that the grace comes through faith. Those that teach we get grace through any other means are wrong. Grace is not administered through or our works or the sacraments as is falsley taught by some.

Need I quote chapter and verse for that? One who knows the Bible well should see that this is the main theme of the gospel. Chapter and verse won't convince one who is convinced otherwise.

Not until one can see that James is teaching that ones faith is justified by their works will they get over the faith+works heresy.

 

[4His_glory]

A catholic is not lost because he is a catholic, a catholic is lost because he is born dead in sin. If he accepts catholic soteriology as his basis for salvation he only continues in his lostness.

Darren. The bellow statement of yours is a bit troubling to me because you completely left our the most important element of salvation.

By the baptist definition: accept, believe, committ; they are saved

Nobody exercises repent faith apart from the grace of God. We are saved by grace. Anybody can accept something. Anybody can believe, something, anybody can commit to something, but those things in and of themselves do not save.

Perhaps its my strong belief in God´s sovereignty in salvation that convinces me of this- but I believe that grace is the most important element of salvation and that is something that no man can achieve of himself. Hence catholic soteriology, which does present the idea of merited f grace, is not a biblical soteriology but rather "another gospel".

I strongly urge you to take another look at what the heart of the Gospel.

 

[Matt Black]

Don't know who said we are saved by faith alone, but that isn't true. We are saved by grace. The truth regarding this is that the grace comes through faith. Those that teach we get grace through any other means are wrong. Grace is not administered through or our works or the sacraments as is falsley taught by some.

Need I quote chapter and verse for that? One who knows the Bible well should see that this is the main theme of the gospel. Chapter and verse won't convince one who is convinced otherwise.

Not until one can see that James is teaching that ones faith is justified by their works will they get over the faith+works heresy.

Since you raise the subject of James, it's worth pointing out that this is the only place in the entire Bible which talks about 'faith alone', and there it explicitly says that we are not saved by faith alone.

I agree that we are saved by grace, but please explain the link between grace and faith as you see it and explain what you mean by the term 'faith'. BTW, 4His_glory, I think you'll find that Catholic soteriology does teach unmerited grace - why else for example would they baptise infants?