The Catholics are not lost

[Crabtownboy]

This may be true, but no Bible believer would agree with that, since the Bible teaches otherwise.

No you are not. You are clear misunderstanding the biblical doctrine of sola fide. This is the type of stuff that makes conversation very difficult. The attempt to paint sola fide against antinomianistic unbelief is a false dichotomy. There is a third option, namely, biblical salvation through true saving faith.

Matt, have you read Sproul's Faith Alone?

You say there is misunderstanding, so please elaborate on your point and explain "biblical salvation through true saving grace." What do you mean by that phrase and how does the James passage on "faith without works is dead" fit into your understanding. Thanks for answering in advance.

 

[Palatka51]

Coming boldly before the throne of grace is the NT privilege that the OT saints did not have. In the OT only the High Pries could enter into the holy of holies and make an atonement for the people, on the Day of Atonement, and that was once a year. We have that privilege (to enter right before God) at any time we want. That is the truth that the author of Hebrews is teaching--that privilege of coming right before God at any time. It is also called the "priesthood of the believer."

I also agree with you that when we do appoach God we ought to be very humble about it. We need to beseech God. The Bible says that God desires a humble and a contrite spirit.
No man can command God. He is not a god that one can put into their pocket and pull out at any time to do one's will and whim at any time. He is not there fulfill the desries of the flesh. He does not give us all our desires or wants. He has promised to provide for our needs, but he is the one that knows what our needs are. Often we pray for what we believe a need is, and the Lord doesn't answer the way we want him to. But God knows best, and we must trust him.
All things work together for good to them that love God to them that are called according to his purpose.

This is very wise counsel.

I have been following this thread very closely. My daughter is dating a Catholic. I have talked with him regarding salvation and he insists that he is saved by grace. I've prayed with him and given counsel. Yet still he is unmovable regarding his faith. I can not personally say that the young man is lost. His, not to say is a testimony as it's more of a confession, is just too personal for him. His confession is his testimony as much as my testimony is a confession for me. (I hope that this makes sense as I am having a hard time of making sense of it myself.)

In high school, my closest friend was a Catholic. He wound up dating my sister and marring her. She and I were able to lead him to Christ before they were married. He eventually was able to lead his father (dad) to Christ before his dad's death. It was this wisdom, that DHK has posted, that we have the boldness to approach the throne of God, in grace and humbleness that Christ made free, that won my B I L.


The truth of the Priesthood of the believer is very profound and totally undermines the priestly order of Catholicism. Even their own Bible bears this wisdom and truth.

Now as my daughter and her beau are talking marriage I am in this situation again to reason with a very likable person the truth of God's Word. I pray that I am equal to the task and that grace may win the day and truth can bring freedom. Sometimes, the tradition of men is a very hard wall to climb over. raying:

Mel

 

[Matt Black]

This may be true, but no Bible believer would agree with that, since the Bible teaches otherwise.

No you are not. You are clear misunderstanding the biblical doctrine of sola fide. This is the type of stuff that makes conversation very difficult. The attempt to paint sola fide against antinomianistic unbelief is a false dichotomy. There is a third option, namely, biblical salvation through true saving faith.

Matt, have you read Sproul's Faith Alone?

Not that one, although I generally have quite a bit of time for him. Will go Google/Amazon for it.

Please expand on what you mean by the third option, if possible tying it in to my earlier example of someone who has a salvation 'event' but then returns to sinning. Changing the goal posts of that example ever so slightly, what if that individual were a homosexual (for the purposes of this thread, you can correctly assume that I am in agreement with you as to homosexual behaviour being sinful)?

 

[Palatka51]

You say there is misunderstanding, so please elaborate on your point and explain "biblical salvation through true saving grace." What do you mean by that phrase and how does the James passage on "faith without works is dead" fit into your understanding. Thanks for answering in advance.

One can say they have faith but if their faith shows no work then their faith is in vain. Dead. Living faith is bringing forth good works that pertain to life. By grace we are saved, not of works lest any should boast.

Ephesians 2:10
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
After grace is received then comes the work. We are now subject to walk in the will of God. Baptism is the first step and the work that bears witness to our conversion from death into life.

 

[Crabtownboy]

One can say they have faith but if their faith shows no work then their faith is in vain. Dead. Living faith is bringing forth good works that pertain to life. By grace we are saved, not of works lest any should boast.

Ephesians 2:10
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
After grace is received then comes the work. We are now subject to walk in the will of God. Baptism is the first step and the work that bears witness to our conversion from death into life.

Would you give me a list of activities that might be considered works? Thanks.

 

[annsni]

Works is the outward evidence of faith. If there is no works, we can safely question whether that faith is alive. Just as a person who is not breathing can be questioned whether they're alive. But breathing doesn't CAUSE life because the breathing is a result OF the life (or an outside machine) and faith and works is the same way.

We are not saved by the works but the works show that there is an alive faith present.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Works is the outward evidence of faith. If there is no works, we can safely question whether that faith is alive. Just as a person who is not breathing can be questioned whether they're alive. But breathing doesn't CAUSE life because the breathing is a result OF the life (or an outside machine) and faith and works is the same way.

We are not saved by the works but the works show that there is an alive faith present.

Would you give me a list of activities you would consider works? Thanks in advance.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Would you give me a list of activities you would consider works? Thanks in advance.

I would say that faith is the greatest of works, although this work is a gift of God that we offer back to God which He gives to us…As the thief on the Cross who had no material works, did in fact have the work of faith…

If you’re looking for material visible signs, look no further than Matthew 25 starting at verse 31. We see a clear picture of Christ granting eternal life those who fed the hungry with food and drink, clothed the naked, visited the sick, took care of strangers and visited those in prison…then we see Christ expel the goats into everlasting punishment for their lack of charity towards our brethren, which reflected their attitude and heart towards Christ…Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.

Jesus Christ, Son of God. Have mercy upon me a sinner.
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[Matt Black]

Amen!

Pastor Larry, I've located the Sproul book and will probably proceed to order it. I guess it's Chapter 8 that is particularly germane to our discussion. Found an interesting critique of it here but I want to read the book first before considering the critique in any depth; be interested to hear what you make of the critique though...

 

[annsni]

Would you give me a list of activities you would consider works? Thanks in advance.

Works would be anything we do. This would be charity, hospitality, missions, etc. It would not include faith since I do not see that as a "work".

 

[Matt Black]

So, very much, then, what Jesus said we are to do, in the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats cited by Agnus?

 

[annsni]

So, very much, then, what Jesus said we are to do, in the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats cited by Agnus?

Amongst others.

 

[Matt Black]

Yet Jesus, in that parable, seems to suggest that those works are necessary for salvation. What do you make of that?

 

[Amy.G]

Yet Jesus, in that parable, seems to suggest that those works are necessary for salvation. What do you make of that?

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.


deeds of the law=works.

We are justified apart from works.

 

[annsni]

Yet Jesus, in that parable, seems to suggest that those works are necessary for salvation. What do you make of that?

Are you breathing? Then you are alive.

Is Abraham Lincoln breathing? Then he is not alive.

Works are a sign of the faith.

 

[Linda64]

I would say that faith is the greatest of works, although this work is a gift of God that we offer back to God which He gives to us…As the thief on the Cross who had no material works, did in fact have the work of faith…

If you’re looking for material visible signs, look no further than Matthew 25 starting at verse 31. We see a clear picture of Christ granting eternal life those who fed the hungry with food and drink, clothed the naked, visited the sick, took care of strangers and visited those in prison…then we see Christ expel the goats into everlasting punishment for their lack of charity towards our brethren, which reflected their attitude and heart towards Christ…Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.

Jesus Christ, Son of God. Have mercy upon me a sinner.
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In Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus is addressing NATIONAL salvation, not personal salvation. This is addressing the Judgment of the Nations. The NATIONS are being judged for their attitude towards God's people (Israel). This occurs when Christ returns after the 7 year tribulation period.

 

[mrtumnus]

Yet Jesus, in that parable, seems to suggest that those works are necessary for salvation. What do you make of that?

In my view, it's because thay are indeed necessary, just as faith is. There are too many scriptures that indicate otherwise.

However, that doesn't mean we merit or earn our salvation by works, and I've never understood why some insist it does.

If we say that faith and works are necessary for salvation, why does that translate to 'earning our salvation by works'?

If we say faith alone is necessary, why doesn't that then translate that we "earn our salvation by faith'??

Fact is, we are saved by grace alone, not by our faith or our works. Yet both faith and works are necessary responses to grace as scripture shows in many places. Just because faith is necessary, this doesn't mean we 'earn' our salvation that way. Just because works are necessary, this doesn't mean we 'earn' our salvation that way either.

That's why when Paul says that "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast." he is sure to point out that faith is not from ourselves either, lest we end up thinking we're saved by our faith.

I've read much in this thread (mostly incorrect) but Catholic theology is that we are saved by grace alone. Period. Both faith and works are necessary responses to God's grace. This is quite scriptural. After all, Paul also says that "the only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love". This is why the Bible gives us a definition of a 'useless faith' (one without works) and a 'saving faith' (one with works). I am always amazed when people take all the verses that speak about faith and then apply the Biblical definition of a 'useless faith' when interpreting their meaning.

 

[mrtumnus]

In Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus is addressing NATIONAL salvation, not personal salvation. This is addressing the Judgment of the Nations. The NATIONS are being judged for their attitude towards God's people (Israel). This occurs when Christ returns after the 7 year tribulation period.

Interesting interpretation, but I was unaware that 'nations' would be separated and then receive eternal life or eternal damnation?

 

[DHK]

Yet Jesus, in that parable, seems to suggest that those works are necessary for salvation. What do you make of that?

Two latin words: non sequitor.

It has nothing to do with this topic.
It has nothing to do with salvation; is not speaking of salvation.
It is wrong to pull that parable out of its context.
Remember that it is a parable.
And whether or not you like or agree with dispensations, it is not even speaking of this time and period or this dispensation, but describes another event in another time period or dispensation. That is what makes the parable totally non-applicable to our day and age.

It is the equivalent of saying that because God killed an animal and put coats made of skin on Adam and Eve then he must do the same for us. That was a work too. But a different story; a different time; a different purpose. You can't take Scripture out of context and make it say something that it is not saying.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Interesting interpretation, but I was unaware that 'nations' would be separated and then receive eternal life or eternal damnation?

Uhhh...it's called Sola Scriptura...I'm sure there'll be other "interesting interpretations" soon enough...

In the risen Christ
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