The Catholics are not lost

[mrtumnus]

Two latin words: non sequitor.

It has nothing to do with this topic.
It has nothing to do with salvation; is not speaking of salvation.
It is wrong to pull that parable out of its context.
Remember that it is a parable.
And whether or not you like or agree with dispensations, it is not even speaking of this time and period or this dispensation, but describes another event in another time period or dispensation. That is what makes the parable totally non-applicable to our day and age.

It is the equivalent of saying that because God killed an animal and put coats made of skin on Adam and Eve then he must do the same for us. That was a work too. But a different story; a different time; a different purpose. You can't take Scripture out of context and make it say something that it is not saying.

First of all, this chapter contains 2 parables -- that of the virgins waiting for the bridegroom, and that of the talents. Beginning in verse 31 -- this is no longer parable. This is Jesus speaking about what will happen when he comes "in his glory'.

Second, I find it interesting that you consider an outcome of 'eternal life' or 'eternal damnation' to have nothing to do with salvation.

 

[Samuel Owen]

It seems at times, one of the hardest things to get people to understand. That Salvation is not based on anything! except the grace of God in Jesus Christ. And Faith, that not of ourselves but it to is a gift, a free gift.

I think it might be because we are drilled from childhood, that nothing is free we must work for it. That's the way of the world, and is more or less true. If its free its probably broke, or there is a catch to it somewhere.

That is not the way of God. Works in the Bible are based on Fruits of the Spirit, Love, Faith, Charity, etc, all of these works of the Spirit, produce the works mentioned in the parable of the Sheep and Goats.

At the judgment seat of Christ, we will face a judgment of works preformed, not sin. Our works are tried as by fire, and all those that are lasting we will be rewarded for ( silver, gold, precious stones), those that are burned we will loose (straw, hay).

The works of gold, silver, and precious stones, are works produced by the spirit. The straw and hay, are those produced by human effort. These will be burned away, but the sole will be saved, as a man escaping a burning building. This man may end up in the street naked and ashamed, but alive. This is the judgment of works. 1st cor. 3:12-15

We stifle the Spirit by our do good efforts, we make void its purpose in our life. When we come to the point of realization we cannot, and were never meant to produce good works, and release control of our lives to the Spirit. Then we will do those good works, not by our own power and effort, but by the power of the Holy Spirit we can walk in good works.

 

[DHK]

First of all, this chapter contains 2 parables -- that of the virgins waiting for the bridegroom, and that of the talents. Beginning in verse 31 -- this is no longer parable. This is Jesus speaking about what will happen when he comes "in his glory'.

Second, I find it interesting that you consider an outcome of 'eternal life' or 'eternal damnation' to have nothing to do with salvation.

It has nothing to do with OUR salvation; not mine.

 

[mrtumnus]

It has nothing to do with OUR salvation; not mine.

Okay. So whose salvation is it referring to?

 

[DHK]

It has nothing to do with OUR salvation; not mine.

Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

The key to the parable is found in this verse.
Who are "the brethren," that Jesus refers to?

 

[mrtumnus]

Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

The key to the parable is found in this verse.
Who are "the brethren," that Jesus refers to?

I would assume one would interpret this to be his disciples, although some may refer to this as mankind in general.

I'm not sure how this is the 'key' though. The people who are separated to receive either eternal life or damnation are not identified as 'brethren' -- it is the ones who are on the receiving end of the works of mercy, not the ones being judged.

 

[Pastor Larry]

You say there is misunderstanding, so please elaborate on your point and explain "biblical salvation through true saving grace." What do you mean by that phrase and how does the James passage on "faith without works is dead" fit into your understanding.

Both Matt and Crabtownboy ask the same question, and I will give a brief answer. Biblically, salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. That is over and over again made clear. It is not of works. With respect to the Catholicism, there are some technical distinctions about merit that would take a longer discussion than I have time to have right now.

The James 2 passage sums up the issue pretty well, I think. When James asks about faith, he uses an article pointing to a particular kind of faith. He says, "Can that faith save?" He is not talking about whether or not salvation is by faith alone; he is talking about the nature of saving faith.

We are saved by faith alone. But the regenerating power of the Spirit brings a changed life, though not a perfect one. Regeneration will be seen through the works that result from faith. But it is not the works that save. The works are the evidence of salvation. A person who is saved may struggle with sin. There is no way that we on earth can be a final judge of salvation. But the good news of grace is that even homosexual sin can be forgiven by God. One of hte marks of saving faith is genuine spiritual struggle over sin.

Thanks for answering in advance.

I didn't answer in advance ...

 

[mrtumnus]

Both Matt and Crabtownboy ask the same question, and I will give a brief answer. Biblically, salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. That is over and over again made clear. It is not of works. With respect to the Catholicism, there are some technical distinctions about merit that would take a longer discussion than I have time to have right now.

The James 2 passage sums up the issue pretty well, I think. When James asks about faith, he uses an article pointing to a particular kind of faith. He says, "Can that faith save?" He is not talking about whether or not salvation is by faith alone; he is talking about the nature of saving faith.

We are saved by faith alone. But the regenerating power of the Spirit brings a changed life, though not a perfect one. Regeneration will be seen through the works that result from faith. But it is not the works that save. The works are the evidence of salvation. A person who is saved may struggle with sin. There is no way that we on earth can be a final judge of salvation. But the good news of grace is that even homosexual sin can be forgiven by God. One of hte marks of saving faith is genuine spiritual struggle over sin.

I didn't answer in advance ...

Regarding the red, is it the faith that saves in your view?

Regarding the blue, I find that an interesting choice of words. So you believe there are degrees of sin which would elevate this to the 'even this sin' status? And if so, is this greater than murder, or raping a child for example? If not, why present this one in particular?

 

[annsni]

Regarding the red, is it the faith that saves in your view?

Regarding the blue, I find that an interesting choice of words. So you believe there are degrees of sin which would elevate this to the 'even this sin' status? And if so, is this greater than murder, or raping a child for example? If not, why present this one in particular?

Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

I won't answer for Pastor Larry but I will say that some see homosexuality as a sin that is past forgiveness and I think that is why he mentioned it - but I could be wrong.

 

[Samuel Owen]

Sin is sin, but most are outside of the body, but homosexuality is a sin committed against ones own body, inside. This particular type of sin is considered an abomination, and seems to receive greater condemnation.

There is scripture to back this up, but right off I am at loss to remember where.

 

[dcorbett]

You can't unless you throw out James' "Faith without works is dead."

No, but you need to understand that the Greek word here for "dead" was different than the one used for death which is "separation from God"

This "dead" when taking about faith without works means that your faith is flat, non-serving, non-useful.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Regarding the red, is it the faith that saves in your view?

It is the instrumental cause (I think I have the right cause there).

Regarding the blue, I find that an interesting choice of words. So you believe there are degrees of sin which would elevate this to the 'even this sin' status? And if so, is this greater than murder, or raping a child for example? If not, why present this one in particular?

I present that sin in particular because it was the one Matt asked about. Substitute any other sin for it, it's still the same.

 

[DHK]

I would assume one would interpret this to be his disciples, although some may refer to this as mankind in general.

I'm not sure how this is the 'key' though. The people who are separated to receive either eternal life or damnation are not identified as 'brethren' -- it is the ones who are on the receiving end of the works of mercy, not the ones being judged.

"Salvation is of the Jews."
Christ was of Jewish descent. The context is speaking of "his brethren, the Jewish nation." In that context this event must be interpreted.

 

[mrtumnus]

"Salvation is of the Jews."
Christ was of Jewish descent. The context is speaking of "his brethren, the Jewish nation." In that context this event must be interpreted.

Okay, in that context....

The sheep are those who do works of mercy towards the Jewish people, and the goats are the ones who don't. The sheep go to heaven; the goats go to hell.

Now that's an interesting twist on salvation I think.

 

[mrtumnus]

It is the instrumental cause (I think I have the right cause there).

I present that sin in particular because it was the one Matt asked about. Substitute any other sin for it, it's still the same.

Can you define what you mean by 'instrumental' cause?

And I missed Matt's post -- thanks for explaining your reference.

 

[DHK]

Okay, in that context....

The sheep are those who do works of mercy towards the Jewish people, and the goats are the ones who don't. The sheep go to heaven; the goats go to hell.

Now that's an interesting twist on salvation I think.

Your still out of context. This is not the "salvation" that you are familiar with.

 

[mrtumnus]

Your still out of context. This is not the "salvation" that you are familiar with.

Okay, exactly what salvation is it? The net result is still eternal life for one group, and eternal punishment for the other. Is sounds quite like the salvation I'm familiar with, so you're going to have to explain really well how it's different.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Get ready for some mental gymnastics...:applause:

 

[DHK]

Okay, exactly what salvation is it? The net result is still eternal life for one group, and eternal punishment for the other. Is sounds quite like the salvation I'm familiar with, so you're going to have to explain really well how it's different.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Jesus had been teaching these things in the context of the Second Coming of Christ. Verse 31 speaks of his coming in his glory with all the holy angels with him. This indeed the Second Coming, and not the rapture.

What happens just before the Second Coming, at the Second Coming, and just after the Second Coming. To find those details out you must study the book of Revelation.
Just one verse will do:
Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

The armies of much of the world will gather against Israel and make war, and try to demolish Israel, wiping her off the face of the earth (Islam's great desire).

Romans 11:26. There is a promise here--"So then all Israel shall be saved."
Israel, as a nation, at that time will look to Christ and be saved. Christ will come for Israel at that time; they will accept Him as their Messiah, and Christ will defeat all those who have come against Him.

Shortly after that, there will be a judgement. It is called the judgement of the nations. You can imagine what kind of nations were against Israel: primarily Islam and perhaps some others that were very anti-Semitic. There is little chance that any in these nations are saved. They will be condemned. They were not friends "of my brethren" who Christ had just came to save.

But there are nations, peoples that were friendly to the Jews. Perhaps the U.S. and Canada or Britain are some of those nations. It doesn't mean that all those in those nations are saved, as in born again. It does mean that they will be able to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. There they will have the opportunity to be saved.
But remember, at the end of one thousand years, Satan shall be loosed and will still be able to raise up a great army and make one final stand against Christ. Where did these unbelievers come from. They came from the offspring of the unsaved that entered into the Kingdom.

 

[mrtumnus]

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Jesus had been teaching these things in the context of the Second Coming of Christ. Verse 31 speaks of his coming in his glory with all the holy angels with him. This indeed the Second Coming, and not the rapture.

What happens just before the Second Coming, at the Second Coming, and just after the Second Coming. To find those details out you must study the book of Revelation.
Just one verse will do:
Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

The armies of much of the world will gather against Israel and make war, and try to demolish Israel, wiping her off the face of the earth (Islam's great desire).

Romans 11:26. There is a promise here--"So then all Israel shall be saved."
Israel, as a nation, at that time will look to Christ and be saved. Christ will come for Israel at that time; they will accept Him as their Messiah, and Christ will defeat all those who have come against Him.

Shortly after that, there will be a judgement. It is called the judgement of the nations. You can imagine what kind of nations were against Israel: primarily Islam and perhaps some others that were very anti-Semitic. There is little chance that any in these nations are saved. They will be condemned. They were not friends "of my brethren" who Christ had just came to save.

But there are nations, peoples that were friendly to the Jews. Perhaps the U.S. and Canada or Britain are some of those nations. It doesn't mean that all those in those nations are saved, as in born again. It does mean that they will be able to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. There they will have the opportunity to be saved.
But remember, at the end of one thousand years, Satan shall be loosed and will still be able to raise up a great army and make one final stand against Christ. Where did these unbelievers come from. They came from the offspring of the unsaved that entered into the Kingdom.

Based on the red you're saying

1) Some can enter the kingdom of heaven, where they will have the 'opportunity' to be saved? You can be in heaven, and not be saved? And by 'opportunity' you mean it's not certain, so they can end up getting kicked out of heaven?

2) And what will be the criteria for their salvation?