The certainty of God's Foreknowledge?

[ReformedBaptist]

Hey Outsider,

Everyone is born alive by the sacrifice of Christ. The scripture you quoted says it best. In Adam, all die, so in Christ all shall be made alive.
The "all" who die are the same "all" who shall be made alive. Where do you place the unregenerate to be alive in Christ?

Let's widen the context a bit more, and make sure we are comparing what you are saying with the Scripture. You are saying that everyone that is born, is born alive by the sacrifice of Christ. When I said by their birth, I wasn't being clear enough. What I meant was that you are teaching that everyone is born alive in Christ when they are born into the world. Is this indeed, what the Scripture is teaching?

1 Corinthians 15 the Aposlte is addressing an error that was among them that some were saying there is no resurrection of the dead. verse 12. He goes on the prove by the ressurrection of Christ that the dead are raised. If you look to verses 17, 18, and 19 he is speaking about Christians. "If Christ be not raised, your faith is vain." and "Then they also which are fallen asleep (dead) in Christ are perished."

Then he affirms, "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept." Who are the "them" that slept? The same "which are fallen asleep IN CHRIST." (emphasis mine, not screaming...lol). And now the teaching:

For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so IN CHRIST shall all be made alive.

Now, let me interject a comment to say that the very next verse lays the context for the semantic range of the second "all" in verse 22, the above verse, which you say teaches that everyone who is born into the world is born alive by the sacrifice of Christ, that is, spiritually alive.

v. 23 "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward THEY THAT ARE CHRIST'S at his coming."

Brother, the text of Scripture limits the "all" who are in Christ made alive to those that are His. And this Scripture is not speaking of spiritual death or spiritual life, but of physical death and an immortal ressurection. Which, consequently, if I have used this verse to refer to spiritual life, then I have misapplied this verse and its own argument, which I may have done.

We should next examine Romans 5. But its getting late for me too.

The term "Regenerate" means something. Look at the very first part of the word, "Re". If you have been re-generated, when where you generated the first time?

Yes, it does. It has a few meanings in English. The first of which is: formed, or created again. The Greek word from being translated is palingenesia. The concept itself, as Mounce points out (NT Greek teacher), in the NT "..is much larger than this one word, represented by the ideas of "new birth" (Jn. 3:3,5), being "born anew" (anagennao, GK 335, 1 Peter 1:3; 33) "new creation" (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal 6:15), and others." p. 569, Mounce's Expository Dictionary.

If you go and study these verses and the concept, it is speaking of our conversion to Christ, which does not happen when we are born of the flesh, but of the Spirit. John 3:3-8.

So, the answer to your question "when was I generated the first time?" is..."I was generated the first time on July 29th, 1973 (and starting to feel that age too!). I was re-generated, or re-created, or born from above, or born of the Spirit, in May 1993. Soli Deo Gloria!

 

[skypair]

Skypair, I just don't see your arguments having biblical support. I have tried to engage you by focusing on scripture. When you are shown to have completely misread a passage, you simply go to the next passage that has been butchered by your logic, as if nothing has been said.

I will admit that often I am merely trying to get you to see how you misread passages you offer. I will have to point you, I guess, to others which support my view.

But for instance, your speech to outsider about the "whole world" in John 12:32 not meaning "whole world" but merely Jews and Gentiles. How would you twist John 1:9 where it says Jesus "lighted everyone who has come into the world?"

How do you get around Rom 1:19-20? Is this not saying that from the dawn of creation, God gave the "Light" unto all men?

And John 3:16 -- "God so loved the world..."

Do you realize what your "nuancing" of these words "world," "whosoever," "all," etc. really reveals? It shows that your very soul/conscience is "favorably disposed" (as Renald Showers would put it) to Calvinism and not God. More plainly, when Jesus stood before them, the Pharisees could neither see Him nor hear Him because their conscience was "seared" by the Judaism they had developed and trusted in.

"Beware," jd, "of the leaven of the Pharisees." You can play the "shell game" with these words (and many others) -- whereby you hide the truth -- only so long (Luke 12:1-2).

skypair

 

[skypair]

Everyone is born alive by the sacrifice of Christ. The scripture you quoted says it best. In Adam, all die, so in Christ all shall be made alive.
The "all" who die are the same "all" who shall be made alive. Where do you place the unregenerate to be alive in Christ?

I believe you may be misapplying "all shall be made alive," os. All shall be made alive -- resurrected -- even from hell on account of Jesus a) to His kingdom or b) to the GWT.

It is not meant that everyone is made alive at birth by Christ's sacrifice. They are "alive" at birth on account of creation and are innocent.

But you'll have a difficult time convincing calvies that "sin nature" is merely "instinctive behavior" that, while innocent in infancy turns sinful in adulthood/AoA. They will try to convince you that "sin nature" is "sin guilt" and that, therefore, all are born dead in sin and there is no rebirth since there never is a first birth until salvation. :tear:

skypair

 

[canadyjd]

But for instance, your speech to outsider about the "whole world" in John 12:32 not meaning "whole world" but merely Jews and Gentiles. How would you twist John 1:9 where it says Jesus "lighted everyone who has come into the world?"

I didn't comment on John 1:9. I demonstrated the context of John 12:32. I notice you have not addressed the context of John 12:32, which has clearly been presented.

If you believe John 12:32 means that everyperson that has ever lived will be "drawn" to Jesus in a salvific sense; that every person that has ever lived has/will hear the gospel...please show me that to be true from scripture and the historical evidence that it has occurred.

How do you get around Rom 1:19-20? Is this not saying that from the dawn of creation, God gave the "Light" unto all men?

And John 3:16 -- "God so loved the world..."

Again, I have not addressed either passage in the comments that I have made. What do you assume I am trying to "get around them"?

Do you realize what your "nuancing" of these words "world," "whosoever," "all," etc. really reveals? It shows that your very soul/conscience is "favorably disposed" (as Renald Showers would put it) to Calvinism and not God.

I have only focused on the content of scripture in the context it was written. I haven't read John Calvin. I haven't read Renald Showers. I haven't reference either man.

If you want to put your focus onto men, instead of scripture, that is your error.

More plainly, when Jesus stood before them, the Pharisees could neither see Him nor hear Him because their conscience was "seared" by the Judaism they had developed and trusted in.

That is not what scripture says. Scripture says they did not believe because they were not His sheep.

You have substituted your own logic for Holy Spirit breathed revelation.

"Beware," jd, "of the leaven of the Pharisees." You can play the "shell game" with these words (and many others) -- whereby you hide the truth -- only so long (Luke 12:1-2).

Not only is the log in your eye is blurring your vision, but the leaven in your heart is clouding your judgment.

peace to youraying:

 

[Rippon]

Actually, the word means "Drag". Is "drawing" and "dragging" equivalent? Anyway, my point is, He does it to all.

Rip : Drawaing is always toward saving union with Christ. The Father draws and gives them to Jesus. Not one is lost of those the Father draws to the Son.God the Father does not draw every single person savingly toward His Son. That is patently obvious from John 6 and plain reasoning.

It is translated as "men". Forgive me, but I will take the Bible's word over yours.

Rip : The word "men" was added to the version you prefer -- the KJV. The equivalent of the word "men" is not in the original Greek texts.I forgive you for your mistake.

Actually, God loved Esau.

Rip : For one who professes to love God's Word -- you contradict it here. Where does it say God loved Esau? Hate does not mean love -- again the obvious is before your eyes.

For a student of proper translations, you should know this.

Rip : I don't know of any "proper translations" which use 'loved less'.

Many great calvinists refer to this scripture and say "Loved less".

Rip : Many? Charles Hodge comes to mind. Perhaps there were others. No, "many great Calvinists" have not interpreted Romans 9:13 as meaning the opposite of what Scripture plainly says.


Anyway, the scripture is not telling us that Jacob was chosen for heaven and Esau for hell. If we read Romans 9, with an open mind, you would find that God prefered the nation to go through Jacob and not Esau. His sovereign election was in place, Christ would be born from the seed of Jacob rather than Esau.

Rip : You're just another guy who denies the obvious. Damnation and salvation of individuals is referenced in Romans 9. Verse 22 deals with "objects of wrath". Verse 23 deals with "objects of mercy"-- two different destinations -- destruction and glory.

 

[skypair]

I didn't comment on John 1:9. I demonstrated the context of John 12:32. I notice you have not addressed the context of John 12:32, which has clearly been presented.

I was requesting that you consider John 1:9 and Rom 1:19-20 in regards to Christ or God "drawing" ALL men.

If you believe John 12:32 means that everyperson that has ever lived will be "drawn" to Jesus in a salvific sense; that every person that has ever lived has/will hear the gospel...please show me that to be true from scripture and the historical evidence that it has occurred.

"Every knee shall bow ... and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of Father." Phil 2:10 Does THAT tell you that God is going to draw ALL people to Christ?? Absolutely!! Not for salvation necessarily, but it puts the lie to the notion that God doesn't draw everyone, the whole world, all, etc. It DOES answer even to the context of John 12:32.

I have only focused on the content of scripture in the context it was written. I haven't read John Calvin.

Does anyone anymore have to read John Calvin in order to be a Calvinist? No.

Have you ever heard the phrase "I would not even consciene doing such-and-such?" What does that mean to you? To me, it means that your soul has established itself in some system of belief that does not even allow them to think "outside the box." That's what Calvinism has done to many. They feel that Calvinism's "ducks are in a row" regarding the Bible and it is the "go to" reference for the issues of life. And yet Calvinism can't answer the simplest of scriptural questions, jd -- the ones, indeed, that every person in the world at one time or another wants to know! How did evil enter into the world? How does God elect whom He does to salvation? "What must I do to be saved?"

You have substituted your own logic for Holy Spirit...

Fine. So your "Holy Spirit" speaks in some sort of "technical jargon" that I am not privy to. Is that it? Very technical words like "all" and "the whole world" and "whosoever" take a doctor of divinity degree to understand. And other words like "total depravity" and the rest of ULIP, etal. were "God breathed" (like much of Catholic tradition); they're just not "God written into scripture," right?

Are you SURE you are not believing Calvinism's "Holy Spirit?" Many people believe the Holy Spirit of the Popes, don't they? Maybe all these Holy Spirits are not the same one. Possible?

skypair

 

[skypair]

Rip : You're just another guy who denies the obvious. Damnation and salvation of individuals is referenced in Romans 9.

Actually, Mal 1:3 puts the lie to your deception. Rom 9 is a QUOTE from Mal 1:3 and Mal 1:3 speaks of Esau's "heritage" -- his descendants.

The truth is the Esau "despised" his inheritance, even hated Jacob for awhile (Gen 27:41), but you KNOW how the story ends, don't you?

skypair

 

[Rippon]

Rip : You're just another guy who denies the obvious. Damnation and salvation of individuals is referenced in Romans 9. Verse 22 deals with "objects of wrath". Verse 23 deals with "objects of mercy"-- two different destinations -- destruction and glory.[/quote]

And SP is yet another person who denies the import of Romans 9:22,23 ( not to mention the rest of the chapter).