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The Chalcedonian Creed: Fact, Fiction, or Something Between?

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JonC

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I'm sorry if you find my expression confusing; as I have written elsewhere, it is not original to me but it seems to sum up Chalcedon rather well.
'.....One and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures; inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons.....' The two natures are not blended or confused. Christ is real God and real man. Man as if He were not God; God as if He were not man. It seems rather clear to me.
Thank you for the post. It is not so much I find your expression confusing as I find it disagreeable. But we do have to be careful because we are venturing into philosophical ideas (“persons”, “natures”, …. even “union”) that carry diverse understanding.

What I disagree on is seeing Christ as man is if he were not God and God as if he were not man. This, in my view (again, we are speaking a philosophical hypothetical and not Scripture with the addition of “if he were not”) separates the “natures” to a degree not warranted by the creed itself.

What I believe the actual Creed is stating is that in Jesus is all the fullness of God in bodily form. No less God than God and no more man than man. Very God of very God, yet man like us.

So I do not agree with idea we should ever look at Christ as man as if he were not God, or as God as if he were not man. I believe this is contrary to Scripture (“I and my Father are One).

I believe Jesus is God-man. As God-man Jesus was obedient to the Father, healed the sick, and died for us that we might have life.

I hope this helps to clarify my view and where I believe we differ. I simply do not believe you affirm the Chalcedonian Creed as a whole because I believe you reject what they present as “two natures” inseparably. Which is fine as I do not hold the Creed as an authority for the "orthodox" view. But I think that your idea is different from the belief the Creed expresses.

John
 

agedman

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Confused Where exactly have I done that? I absolutely do not believe that Christ had two temperaments or two wills. He had a human nature and a divine nature, but He did not have two wills. He could be hungry and thirsty, tired and weary; He could be tempted, which are things that apply to man and not God. He knew the thoughts and desires of all men (John 2:24-25) and had power of the elements and over death, and was without sin, which are things that apply to God and not man. As man, He prayed to the Father; the Father did not pray to Him. After His baptism, 'the Spirit immediately drove Him out into the wilderness' (Mark 1:12). He did not drive or send the Spirit anywhere until after His ascension.

I do not do so.

Yes.

No. The Father sent the Son. That implies separation. The Son could be hungry (Matthew 4:2). The Father does not feel hunger.

Yes.

Christ could be tempted (Hebrews 4:15). At Gethsemane, He shrank from what He was about to face. "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from Me.....'

Yes, for the glory of God. '......nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will' (Matthew 26:39). See also John 12:27.

I'm not quite sure what you mean here. You'll have to explain further.
No. That sounds like Sabellianism.
See above.
Ultimately you are extending “nature” beyond the Scripture.

For example, in the garden, the expression of Will in Christ’s statement was not human will but that of Christ. Just as the Holy Spirit has a will to travel as it desires, so too does the Son and Father.

Christ’s statement was the expression of divinity to divinity, not human will to divinty.

Such is also the case of believer advocacy found in 1 John. The Lord Jesus expresses divine will to the Father’s divine will.

Second is the matter of who prays to whom.
The Lord Jesus was in total divine communication and communion with the Father. This is seen when the Father is heard responding to the son.
Even at the tomb of Lazarus, the Lord openly prays to the father but states such was not really necessary, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42I knew that you always hear me, but I said this on account of the people standing around, that they may believe that you sent me.”

The words “you always hear me...” mean complete and communication and communion.

The Son did not initiate prayer to the Father, the lines were two directional, “... what I say the Father has told me to say....”

Third, you post about the Spirit driving (impelling) Him into the wilderness. This is statement is found in Marks account. Using it to show authority over Spirit was limited until after the ascension.

This is most weak in support. Because the trinity’s Communication remains unobstructed it is not for any parson of the trinity to order any other part around.

Jesus addressed the issue of the Spirit in discussion with Nicodemus.

By stating the limitation is part of human comprehension, He was not stating He had no authority or understanding.

We differ, I suppose in the extension of the word “nature” to mean that which is not found in Scripture

I find that the body of Christ, that covering was as our covering is (according to Paul) an enclosure that will be put off for a better at death, because we are a new creation.

I find the Scripture support Christ had a body, just like our body. It was not anything more or less then 100% human construction. I do not find the Scriptures separating the body from Christ. Those who desire to separate the “nature” into what is human and what is Devine obliterate the Union. The Christ was a union and must not ever be considered in parts. Just as you are in union and fully responsible for your health and actions, so was the Christ. 100% union of 100% human body and 100% Word.

You point that God cannot hunger, but that is unsupported by Scripture.

Psalm 40 states, “If I were hungry, I would not tell you,
for the world and its fullness are... ”

It is not given to the understanding of humans nor for our determination the determination of when God is hungry.

The verse does not state God does not hunger, but that if He were hungry, He wouldn’t let us know.

What we do know is there is a feast in heaven that will take place with the redeemed. Why such if there was no desire for both celebration and communion as our Lord stated. That He is even now in fasting from the bread and cup, does not support a lack of hunger.

The manna came from heaven, did it not?

The balance of Scriptures do not support the popular myth that God does not hunger.

But then, too, some actually contend God is above all expressions and desires and needs. Yet, the image of Him as Adam displayed, disputes such myth.
 
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Martin Marprelate

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My understanding is that all the fullness of God dwells in Christ and it is only through him we can know God (he is given to man as God's self-revelation). Also, all the fullness of God dwells in the Father. And in the Spirit.

So in my understanding when we behold the Son we behold God (fully, not partly). When we consider the Father and Spirit we consider God (fully, not partly).

I believe God in three Persons (not as a sum..i.e. divided into three Persons).

Does that help clarify my view?
Can you explain the differences between the three Persons?
 

JonC

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Can you explain the differences between the three Persons?
I can to an extent and with a disclaimer.

I believe that the only way we can know God and know about God is Christ. We can look to Scripture and us ultimately a book about Him and His activities. We can know some through Creation, which was created through and for Him and is sustained by Him.

So when we move from knowing God, or about God, through Christ we move from theology to philosophy.

The differences between the "Persons" are exhibited in Scripture. God "spoke". The Son was sent. The Father and Son sent the Spirit. There is a distinction of "persons" here in that the Father is not the Person of the Son who is not the Person of the Spirit. But all are "person".

But they are not Components of the One True God. God is not God the Father + God the Son + God the Spirit (polytheism).

We can be assured that all the fullness of God dwells in Christ bodily.
 

Yeshua1

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You are confusing the Chalcedon Creed with Nestorianism. Chalcedon makes it clear that Christ is only one Person. Yet He was God as if He were not man, and man as if He were not God. Christ suffered; Christ calmed the seas. But when we see Him become tired and needing to sleep, which is not something that God needs to do (Isaiah 40:28), we know that it is because He is a man, man as if He were not God. And when we see Him calm the wind and waves with a word, we know that this is something only God can do. Christ is God, God as if He were not man. But Christ does not do one thing 'in His human nature' and another thing 'in His divine nature.' That is Nestorianism which the creed was composed, in part, to oppose. He is not two people in one body-- the man Jesus and the divine Son as Nestorius taught. Christ is one hypostasis in two physeis. A single Person with two natures.
JonC seems to be confused as to how we are to understand just what the hypostatis aspect of Jesus is to be understand in the light of the scriptures!
 

Yeshua1

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John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ... And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

1. I believe that the passage is speaking of Christ. Jesus is the λόγος (the Logos, the Word).

2. The Word (again, I believe this is Jesus Christ - the Son) became flesh.

I believe this means that the Word (which I identify as the Son) became flesh (became man).

Here we have Jesus NOT losing his divinity but becoming man.

In John 5:8 Jesus makes Himself equal with God.

In John 10 Jesus says that He and the Father are One.

In Col. 2:9 Paul says that in Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form.

In Phil. 2 Paul describes Christ as existing in the form of God but not regarding equality with God a thing to be grasped. He emptied Himself and took the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of man submitted even to death on a cross.

These verses PROVES that Jesus is God and Man.

There are no verses that prove Jesus is less God than God or more man than man.

These verses show He is very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made.
Who was born of the woman Mary, by which he inherited his humanity and His nature from int eh incarnation, but was conceived by the Virgin birth, and thus did NOT have the sin natures humanity, but the sinless humanity of Adam before he fell!
 

Yeshua1

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You are seeing a separation of natures that do not exist in the Chalecedon Creed (literally) Not man "as if he were not God" or God "as if he were not man" but God-man. That is the Chalecedon Creed. And THAT is the orthodox position of Christianity.
Jesus needs to have both natures in order to be fully God and also fully Man!
 

Yeshua1

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My understanding is that all the fullness of God dwells in Christ and it is only through him we can know God (he is given to man as God's self-revelation). Also, all the fullness of God dwells in the Father. And in the Spirit.

So in my understanding when we behold the Son we behold God (fully, not partly). When we consider the Father and Spirit we consider God (fully, not partly).

I believe God in three Persons (not as a sum..i.e. divided into three Persons).

Does that help clarify my view?
When jesus died, God tha Ftaher did not die, nor the Holy Spirit, and the Father was the One to whom Jesus appeased/propiated his wrath , correct?
 

The Archangel

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I can to an extent and with a disclaimer.

I believe that the only way we can know God and know about God is Christ. We can look to Scripture and us ultimately a book about Him and His activities. We can know some through Creation, which was created through and for Him and is sustained by Him.

The challenge in this statement is that it would seem if God is only knowable through Christ then how did Abraham know God? How did anyone know God before the incarnation? God’s word, in this case, the Old Testament, was God’s self-revelation to His people. Is that discounted? Or is it better to say that Christ is the full and final revelation of God?

The Archangel



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Yeshua1

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The challenge in this statement is that it would seem if God is only knowable through Christ then how did Abraham know God? How did anyone know God before the incarnation? God’s word, in this case, the Old Testament, was God’s self-revelation to His people. Is that discounted? Or is it better to say that Christ is the full and final revelation of God?

The Archangel



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The scriptures are the written revelation from God to us, and Jesus is the living revelation of God to us, but both are equally valid, for Jesus speaks to us throughout the entire bible itself...
 

The Archangel

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The scriptures are the written revelation from God to us, and Jesus is the living revelation of God to us, but both are equally valid, for Jesus speaks to us throughout the entire bible itself...


But the only way we know Christ is through God’s word.

The Archangel


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

JonC

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The challenge in this statement is that it would seem if God is only knowable through Christ then how did Abraham know God? How did anyone know God before the incarnation? God’s word, in this case, the Old Testament, was God’s self-revelation to His people. Is that discounted? Or is it better to say that Christ is the full and final revelation of God?

The Archangel



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I understand how you may think this.

I believe that Christ existed prior to the Incarnation (I know we both believe this). But where we may differ is I view Abraham as knowing God through Christ as well - pre-Incarnate as God's Word, or λόγος (Logos).

I believe that it is an error to read Scripture and believe the God of the Old Testament is anyone different from the God of the New Testament. And I believe it an error to believe the God of the New Testament is anyone different from the fullness of God revealed in Christ.

It seems to me that if Creation was formed through and for Christ, then perhaps we could accept that Christ was indeed active throughout Scripture. I do not discount God's self-revelation to His people in the Old Testament at all. I attribute it to a partial revelation that reaches its fullest in Christ.

I do agree with you that Jesus Christ is the full and final revelation of God. There is nothing of God that is not known through Him. Our inability to grasp all that is revealed of God does not negate the revelation itself.

Does that clarify my position for you?
 

JonC

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When jesus died, God tha Ftaher did not die, nor the Holy Spirit, and the Father was the One to whom Jesus appeased/propiated his wrath , correct?
God experienced a human and physical death in the Person of Jesus Christ (not in the Person of the Father or the Person of the Spirit), if that is what you are asking.
 

JonC

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God the Son, yes!
Would you not be comfortable, then, saying that God gave of himself and died physically for our redemption?

The reason I am asking is that while I agree that there are different Persons of the Trinity you seem to be indicating that there is a dichotomy between God and Jesus.

Are you implying that God is Jesus + the Father + the Spirit?
 

JonC

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The scriptures are the written revelation from God to us, and Jesus is the living revelation of God to us, but both are equally valid, for Jesus speaks to us throughout the entire bible itself...
Excellent.

God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.
 

Yeshua1

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But the only way we know Christ is through God’s word.

The Archangel


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Yes, as while Jesus indeed reveals God to us, as He was God in a human body, the only way we can know of Him is thru the scriptures, and by the Holy Spirit quickening/enabling us to really see Jesus!
 

Yeshua1

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Would you not be comfortable, then, saying that God gave of himself and died physically for our redemption?

The reason I am asking is that while I agree that there are different Persons of the Trinity you seem to be indicating that there is a dichotomy between God and Jesus.

Are you implying that God is Jesus + the Father + the Spirit?
No, just that there existed God outside of Jesus Himself, Persons called the Father and the Holy Spirit!
Jesus was and is one of the Godhead, but not all of the Godhead was in Him!
 

Yeshua1

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Excellent.

God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.
Yes, but unless the Holy Spirit enables a sinner to really know who this Jesus was and is of the Bible...
 
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