Come on Tony, you know better than that....'They WILL REFUTE IT.......guaranteed:laugh:
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The Children whom God hath given me
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Come on Tony, you know better than that....'They WILL REFUTE IT.......guaranteed:laugh:
God bestows blessing upon unbelievers this side of heaven.
Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Jesus makes it clear that the unbeliever is blessed on God in many cases this side of eternity and they will be in the Lake of Fire on the other side.
1st John 2:2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
The interlinear makes it clear,
He is the propitiation for the misses that sin of the whole world. His propitiation.
What is propitiation is it Love or is it God being satisfied with the payment of sin?
Now either John is right and "He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. "
Or you are correct and God is not love when you say,
Since you saying that "the false doctrine of a universal love of God" contradicts Who God is and what His word says I think I'll go with John.
Also John reiterated this in 1 John 4:16 "And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him."
So I believe John is right and God is Love and loves mankind enough to send His Son into the world that the world through Him might be saved.
John 3:17 "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."
God's word The Bible refutes what icon teaches not men.
Not to anyone with understanding. You have not refuted anything but you have joined with the false voices of the day saying peace,peace when there is no peace.
They will attempt to answer but in vain as they cannot refute truth.Look at the foolish translation rmac offers trying to get the verse say something it does not say.
beameup
Member
Some might even go further and say that the "church" (body of Christ) didn't begin until the stoning of Steven/election of Paul.
Some might even suggest that the "Sect of the Nazarenes" started at Acts 2 - is now "dormant" - and will reappear in the Tribulation.
They might even suggest that the "Hebrew" Epistles are set-aside for their "edification" during the Tribulation.
Just sayin'
You mean the interlinear which is straight from Greek to English. Which you have yet to break down. That is what the Greek says with a direct translation into English which is found here:
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Greek_Index.htm
Just in case you need it again to show where the straight translation is not correct I posted the interlinear again.
Interlinear in this case means: a book, especially a textbook, having interlinear matter, as a translation.
So why don't you breakdown the interlinear version?
Verse 17 from the Greek straight to English stats Christ came, "to be propitiating the misses of the people."
Here is the interlinear on
Notice the propitiation is not for us only 'but about the whole world." That would be all mankind. The interlinear is very clear.
This 'copied and pasted' from the KJV3 that was by Jay Green:
10 ¶ For it was fitting for Him, because of whom are all things, and through whom are all things, bringing many sons into glory, to make complete Him as the Author of their salvation through sufferings.
11 For both the One sanctifying and the ones being sanctified are all of One; for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brothers,
12 saying, “I will announce Your name to My brothers; I will hymn to You in the midst of the Assembly.” Psa. 22:22
13 And again, “I will be trusting on Him.” Isa. 8:17 And again, “Behold, I and the children whom God gave to Me.” Isa. 8:18
14 ¶ Therefore since the children have partaken of flesh and blood, in like manner He Himself also shared the same things, that through death He might do away with the one having the power of death, this is, the devil;
15 and might set these free, as many as by fear of death were subject to slavery through all the time to live.
16 For indeed He does not take hold of angels, “but He takes hold of” “the Seed of Abraham”. Isa. 41:8, 9
17 For which reason He is obligated in all things to become like His brothers, that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the things respecting God, in order to propitiate for the sins of His people. For in what He has suffered, being tried, He is able to help those being tried.
It says in vs 17 'He is obligated in all things to become like His brothers' and also 'that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the things respecting God, in order to propitiate for the sins of His people.' Was everyone who ever lived going to be saved? No. Then is He was to have died so that 'He is obligated in all things to become like His brothers', then all of mankind is His brothers.
He 'became our High Priest by making a 'once and for all-time' sacrifice to obtain their salvation, to b the Captain of their salvation.
Look up the word propitiation. It means it actually satisfies God's wrath, offer an appeasement for sins. Then if God's wrath is satisfied, then there is no wrath to be poured out on the sinners on the day of Judgment. God poured out His wrath upon His Son. He, Christ, tasted death for the church, cf Eph. 5:25.
10 ¶ For it was fitting for Him, because of whom are all things, and through whom are all things, bringing many sons into glory, to make complete Him as the Author of their salvation through sufferings.
11 For both the One sanctifying and the ones being sanctified are all of One; for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brothers,
12 saying, “I will announce Your name to My brothers; I will hymn to You in the midst of the Assembly.” Psa. 22:22
13 And again, “I will be trusting on Him.” Isa. 8:17 And again, “Behold, I and the children whom God gave to Me.” Isa. 8:18
14 ¶ Therefore since the children have partaken of flesh and blood, in like manner He Himself also shared the same things, that through death He might do away with the one having the power of death, this is, the devil;
15 and might set these free, as many as by fear of death were subject to slavery through all the time to live.
16 For indeed He does not take hold of angels, “but He takes hold of” “the Seed of Abraham”. Isa. 41:8, 9
17 For which reason He is obligated in all things to become like His brothers, that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the things respecting God, in order to propitiate for the sins of His people. For in what He has suffered, being tried, He is able to help those being tried.
It says in vs 17 'He is obligated in all things to become like His brothers' and also 'that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the things respecting God, in order to propitiate for the sins of His people.' Was everyone who ever lived going to be saved? No. Then is He was to have died so that 'He is obligated in all things to become like His brothers', then all of mankind is His brothers.
He 'became our High Priest by making a 'once and for all-time' sacrifice to obtain their salvation, to b the Captain of their salvation.
Look up the word propitiation. It means it actually satisfies God's wrath, offer an appeasement for sins. Then if God's wrath is satisfied, then there is no wrath to be poured out on the sinners on the day of Judgment. God poured out His wrath upon His Son. He, Christ, tasted death for the church, cf Eph. 5:25.
Hi RevMWC, upon rereading, I see that you are right, the seed or descendant of Abraham in view in verse 16 is Jesus, and not His siblings.
But I remain convinced that "the people" refers to the descendants or offspring of Abraham, which in view of Galatians 3, refers to all believers whether Jew or Gentile. See Hebrews 5:3, 7:5, 7:27, and so forth.
Now lets look at Hebrews 2:9: But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
The interlinear straight from the Greek to English without adding grammatical flow for English states:
17 "Which place He owed according to all to the brothers likened that merciful He may be coming and believing chief sacred one the toward the God into the to be propitiating the misses of the people."
God sent Christ to become the propitiation for the misses of the people.
Did He know beforehand who would and who would not be saved of course. He knew not all would be saved, Christ said in John 3:17 that because of unbelief people are condemned already and only those who believe are not condemned. The point is Christ paid for all sin except one that is the sin of rejecting Him. He will not force people to accept Him but they can never say you didn't offer payment for my sin because He did to everyone.
WE see in
It is clear God knew exactly who would and who would not accept Christ.
Merriam-Webster definition of Foreknow: to have previous knowledge of : know beforehand especially by paranormal means or by revelation.
Whom God knew beforehand He also did Predestinate to be conformed into the image of His Son, and whom He did Predestinate them He also called, and whom He called He also justified and Glorified.
None of this says Christ died only for those predestinated ones. God foreknew who would made a conscious choice to believe. He sent Christ to be the propitiation for the world scripture is clear. God knew not everyone would choose positively for Christ but He still sent Him to become the complete payment for sin, the propitiation for all of mankind. Revelarition 209 states those not found written in the book of Life are cast into the Lake of Fire, their guilty of unbelief.
Because if sin is the reason that mankind is condemned the bible says we all have sinned and come short of the glory of god.
But by Faith in the one who became Propitiation for sin we have life eternal by the Grace of God.
Thank you for your civil post.
It's of my opinion you are misapplying the usage of the word 'propitiation'. Here's the various meanings used for the word 'reconciliation' in Heb. 2:17; the NIV uses 'atonement' for that word, by the way:
to render one's self, to appease, conciliate to one's self, to become propitious, be placated or appeased, to be propitious, be gracious, be merciful, to expiate, make propitiation for.
Now, if Christ brought appeasement for all of mankind, even those who perish, then how was God's wrath appeased? They still died in the sins and God still pours out His wrath upon them, even though His wrath has been appeased.
Here's the meanings for the word 'propitiation' in 2 Jn. 2:2:
an appeasing, propitiating, the means of appeasing, a propitiation.
Romans 3:25 uses another word that the KJV used for 'propitiation':
relating to an appeasing or expiating, having placating or expiating force, expiatory; a means of appeasing or expiating, a propitiation, used of the cover of the ark of the covenant in the Holy of Holies, which was sprinkled with the blood of the expiatory victim on the annual day of atonement (this rite signifying that the life of the people, the loss of which they had merited by their sins, was offered to God in the blood as the life of the victim, and that God by this ceremony was appeased and their sins expiated); hence the lid of expiation, the propitiatory, an expiatory sacrifice, a expiatory victim.
I the opposing view, there is nothing definite about the works of the cross. Christ's death could save, if only the choose to believe. Christ's death could appease God's wrath for the particular sinner if they only humble themselves down. In that view God stands back and watches, in my opinion. He's a spectator, wondering if/when they repent.
Christ's death brought/bought an actual atonement for an definite people, the sheep.
The Greek is "Hilasmos" Thayer's says 1. an appeasing, propitiating 2. the means of appeasing, a propitiation.
Appease per Merriam Webster means to make (someone) pleased of less angry by giving or saying something desired, to make (a pain, a problem, etc.) less painful or troubling.
Also to bring to a state of peace or quiet, to cause to subside.
Propitiate to gain or regain favor or good will. It also means satisfy. Christ payment of His blood satisfied, propitiated God's requirement for the payment of sin. That payment was for the sin of the whole world we see in 1 John 2:2, the desired paynment for sin was met which was blood.
Now the unbeliever must receive Christ as His savior for the benefits of the Propitiatory sacrifice to be effective in His life. If they reject the payment they still owe the debt. But Christ said they are condemned already because they have not believed, therefore as Revelation 20 states those not written in the book of life are cast into the Lake of fire, the satisfactory sacrifice of Jesus paid the requirement to satisfy God the Father for sin but those who refuse the payment are cast into the Lake of fire forever. Payment was made but refused and therefore the consequences of rejection leads to the second death, eternal separation from God in the Lake of Fire.
What I am stating is that in your view, there is a 'double payment' made for those who Christ died. Christ paid their sin debt in full, but on the day of Judgment, they will pay for them, too.
Here is how I view it:
===From the foundation of the world, God chose out a multitude of peoples to give to the Lamb.
===The Lamb then came in the 'likebess' of sinful flesh, and took their(sheep) sins upon Himself.
===God then poured out His wrath upon this Lamb, and He died in their(sheep) stead.
It was in this propitious work that Christ atoned for their sins, and God's wrath was appeased in Christ doing what He did. You can see throughout the bible God's love for His elect.
===See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands;
your walls are ever before me.[Isa. 49:16]
===In a desert land he found him,
in a barren and howling waste.
He shielded him and cared for him;
he guarded him as the apple of his eye,[Deut. 32:10]
I do want to thank you for the civil debate.
This has ben raging for ~2000 years, and I am certain we'll never settle it now.
This has ben raging for ~2000 years, and I am certain we'll never settle it now.
convicted1
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The bible is written for the family of God...
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BrotherJoseph
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Rev MWC,
The love of God spoken of by John is actually proof that his love does not extend to every human being as you assert. John said, "We love him, because he first loved us" (1 John 4:19) According to this verse the love of God is the cause and the effect of the love of God on an individual is that it causes person receiving God's love to in turn love God, however as we know not all men love God, this is because the cause is not universally applied to all men, otherwise we would observe a universal effect, but we do not.
God bless,
Brother Joe
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
The Greek word for propitiation in 1 John 2:2 means "atoning sacrifice" according to Strong's Concordance http://biblehub.com/greek/2434.htm
I think we can both agree the Passover of the Lamb's blood set outside the doorposts of the Jews in slavery in Egypt was a shadow or type of Christ's sacrifice who is the Lamb slayed before the foundation of the world. Now, did God destroy any of those Jews in Egypt who were covered by the Lambs blood outside their door? Look at this verse, "23 For the Lord will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the Lord will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you." (Exodus 12:23). None of them perished. Now if Christ is the atoning sacrifice for every human being, but yet some perish, how then does the old Testament passover properly symbolize Christ's atoning sacrifice? . It doesn't. Therefore, the "propitiation for the whole world" simply is to be understood to mean that He has redeemed not just the Jews only, but those out of every nation, kindred, tribe, and tongue through his blood throughout the whole world as we read in Revelation 5:9, "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;"
God bless,
Brother Joe
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