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The Church and the Tribulation
- Thread starter Askjo
- Start date
Trotter
<img src =/6412.jpg>
I am a pretribber. And. like Gunther, i do not totally agree witht he like of LeHaye et al. But at least they are quite verbal about their beliefs.
I believe in a Rapture of the church before the beginning of the period called the Tribulation. But it seems that each individual here, although using the same vocabulary, attach their own meanings to the words.
Balieve what you wish, because it is between you and God. As for me, I will preach and teach a pretribulation Rapture until God teaches me otherwise.
In Christ,
Trotter
I believe in a Rapture of the church before the beginning of the period called the Tribulation. But it seems that each individual here, although using the same vocabulary, attach their own meanings to the words.
Balieve what you wish, because it is between you and God. As for me, I will preach and teach a pretribulation Rapture until God teaches me otherwise.
In Christ,
Trotter
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Amen, Brother Trotter -- Preach it!
I've been doing that for 51 years now
and will keep on doing it until:
1) Jesus comes to get me and
takes me & all in the pretrib rapture
2) i die (and go to the pretrib resurrection)
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
DeafPosttrib: "The Bible does not promise us that we
shall escape from the Tribulation. 1 Thess. 3:3-4 tell us,
that we are appointed for tribulations.
Why? Because Christ suffered on the cross, so,
therefore we should follow His example - 1 Peter 2:21."
Well, that is one reason.
Here is another reason why we shall suffer tribulaltion
in this world:
1Pe 5:9 (KJV1679):
Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that
the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren
that are in the world.
This says that we of God will have the same
tribulations (afflictions) that the world has.
How long are we going to ignore the ELEPHANT
IN THE LIVING ROOM? Read my post above
(page 3 time is 08:58).
shall escape from the Tribulation. 1 Thess. 3:3-4 tell us,
that we are appointed for tribulations.
Why? Because Christ suffered on the cross, so,
therefore we should follow His example - 1 Peter 2:21."
Well, that is one reason.
Here is another reason why we shall suffer tribulaltion
in this world:
1Pe 5:9 (KJV1679):
Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that
the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren
that are in the world.
This says that we of God will have the same
tribulations (afflictions) that the world has.
How long are we going to ignore the ELEPHANT
IN THE LIVING ROOM? Read my post above
(page 3 time is 08:58).
There is in my view a difference between the "tribulation" which God allows His children to endure and that which He Himself causes as a result of His wrath.
Presumably we will not suffer His wrath, Jesus did that for us, in our place on our behalf propitiating our sins.
Another point: "rapture" comes from the Vulgate (rapto, rapturo) and simply means to "snatch away". The Scripture (as far as I can discern) does not specifically say that we will be "raptured" into heaven. Some interpret "come up here" (spoken to John) in the Revelation as applying to the "rapture" of the Church, but it is an interpretation.
If we are to be "snatched away" it does not necessarily have to mean snatched away to heaven but taken away to a place of protection, perhaps right here on earth.
Isaiah 27
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
Presumably we will not suffer His wrath, Jesus did that for us, in our place on our behalf propitiating our sins.
Another point: "rapture" comes from the Vulgate (rapto, rapturo) and simply means to "snatch away". The Scripture (as far as I can discern) does not specifically say that we will be "raptured" into heaven. Some interpret "come up here" (spoken to John) in the Revelation as applying to the "rapture" of the Church, but it is an interpretation.
If we are to be "snatched away" it does not necessarily have to mean snatched away to heaven but taken away to a place of protection, perhaps right here on earth.
Isaiah 27
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
I thought that the Bible refers to believers as saints and or the elect, unless your are of a particular denomination that venerates saints.
Here are the references to the church in Rev 4-20:
Reve 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Reve 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Reve 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Reve 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Reve 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous [are] thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true [are] thy ways, thou King of saints.
Reve 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
If we are going to get picky about words please show me one single reference to the word Rapture in the KJV. It’s not there.
In the love of Christ,
Tim
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Tim too: "If we are going to get picky about words please
show me one single reference to the word Rapture
in the KJV. It’s not there."
I'm a "pre-tribulation caught upist"
I'm a "pre-tribulation gatheringist"
show me one single reference to the word Rapture
in the KJV. It’s not there."
I'm a "pre-tribulation caught upist"
I'm a "pre-tribulation gatheringist"
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Rapture is not find in the Bible. Word, 'rapture' comes from Latin word. That word for 'caught up' of 1 Thess. 4:17.
Yet, the Bible does not saying caught up shall be occur before tribulation.
Caught up(rapture) does not separate from the second coming. Caught up cannot be occur yet till Christ must first come down, also, caught up cannot be occur till the resurrection must take place first - 1 Thess 4:16-17.
Rev. 20:4 tells us, that the Christians shall face Antichrist first BEFORE resurrection take place.
These scriptures are very clearly telling us, that we must go through tribulations first before Christ comes.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
Yet, the Bible does not saying caught up shall be occur before tribulation.
Caught up(rapture) does not separate from the second coming. Caught up cannot be occur yet till Christ must first come down, also, caught up cannot be occur till the resurrection must take place first - 1 Thess 4:16-17.
Rev. 20:4 tells us, that the Christians shall face Antichrist first BEFORE resurrection take place.
These scriptures are very clearly telling us, that we must go through tribulations first before Christ comes.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
I thought that the Bible refers to believers as saints and or the elect, unless your are of a particular denomination that venerates saints.
Here are the references to the church in Rev 4-20:
Reve 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Reve 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Reve 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Reve 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Reve 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous [are] thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true [are] thy ways, thou King of saints.
Reve 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
If we are going to get picky about words please show me one single reference to the word Rapture in the KJV. It’s not there.
In the love of Christ,
Tim </font>[/QUOTE]Saints in the tribulation do not refer to the church. Nowhere between Rev. 4 and Rev. 21 tells us the church in the tribulation. However there will be saints (Christians)who reject the 666 mark and face the death or escape from there.
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Aren't we as saints - 1 Cor. 14:33?
How about word, 'church' is not appear in Revelation chapter 19 - marriage of the Lamb? All pretribbers agree that marriage of the lamb is the Church. I agree with them, yet word, 'church' is not appear anywhere in Revelation chapter 19. Yet, Revelation chapter 19 on the marriage of the Lamb is apply to us as church very clearly.
How about word, 'church' is not apear in Revelation chapter 20 - reign with Christ? All pretribbers agree that we shall be reign with Chist - Revelation 20, yet, word 'church' is not appear anywhere in chapter 20. Yet, chapter 20 speaks very clear it apply to us all.
How about word, 'church' is not appear in Revelation chapter 21 - New Jerusalem - the Bride? All pretribbers agree that the Bride of New Jerusalem is apply to us. I agree with them. Yet, word, 'church' is not appear anywhere in chapter 21, still chapter 20 is speak to us as Church, that we shall dwell with Christ, also, we are Christ's Bride.
No anywhere in chapter 4 to 21 of Revelation saying 'church'is appear UP IN the heaven either.
There is fallacy on preribulationism doctrine on the book of Revelation.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20- Amen!
I can still hear Dr. Feinberg repeating over and over: "The judgment of God on His enemies ALWAYS means deliverance for His people." He was teaching this as a principle of scripture, and has set a very straight line for me. Then- there was the guy who thought that maybe-- we'd be taken in the order of our belief
Blessings.
Blessings.
Look up the word, "caught up" in a dictionary. It defines, "To take up suddenly.
This word, "Rapture" is a modern word today.
"Rapture" and "caught up" are same meaning.
Two separate programs is best seen by contrasts drawn in Scripture between the 2 events. There is difference between the rapture and the Second Advent.
1. All believers will be caught up into the air -- Rapture. Christ will return to the earth -- the Second Advent.
2. Christ will take up His bride (All believers) -- rapture. But Christ returns with His bride -- Second Advent.
3. All believers only -- Rapture. All men -- Second Advent.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Amen, Brother Dr. Feinberg -- Preach it.Originally posted by dclark14:
I can still hear Dr. Feinberg repeating over and over: "The judgment of God on His enemies ALWAYS means deliverance for His people." He was teaching this as a principle of scripture, and has set a very straight line for me. Then- there was the guy who thought that maybe-- we'd be taken in the order of our belief
Blessings.
As for the order: alphabetic order
is the only fair order.
signed,
Aaron Aaskof
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Amen, Brother Askjo -- Preach it!
Here are more differences:
Comparing the rapture/resurrection (R) AKA: gathering
with the Second Advent (SC): when Jesus comes
to destroy the Antichrist and set up the
Millennial Kingdom AKA: Glorious Appearance.
1R. Jesus comes for His own
(John 14:3, 1 Thess 4:17)
1SC. Jesus comes with His own (Rev 19:14)
2R. Jesus comes in the air (1 Thes 4:17)
2SC. Jesus comes to the earth
(Zech 14:4-5, Acts 1:11)
3R. Jesus comes to claim His Bride
(1 Thess 4:16-17)
3SC. Jesus comes with His Bride
(Rev 19:6-14)
4R. end of the Gentile Age
(Matthew 24:3, 24:31-44)
4SC. end of the Tribulation Period
(Revelation 19)
5R. Tribulation period begins
5SC. Millennial Kingdom begins
6R. Saved are delivered from wrath
(1 Thes 1:10, 5:9; Rev 3:10)
6SC. Unsaved experience the wrath of God
(Rev 6:12-17)
7R. No Signs precede the Rapture
(1 Thess. 5:1-3, Matthew 24:31-44)
7SC. Signs precede the Second Coming
(Luke 21-11-28, Matthew 24:21-30)
8R. Focus: Lord and Church
(1 Thess 4:13-18)
8SC. Focus: Israel and kingdom
(Romans 11)
9R. World is deceived (2 Thess 2:3-12)
9SC. Satan is bound (Rev 20:1-2)
10R. No judgement mentioned on earth
10SC. Follows the Tribulation period
judgement and followed by the sheep/goats
judgement.
11R. Time of joy.
11SC. Time of sorrow.
Aren't we as saints - 1 Cor. 14:33?
How about word, 'church' is not appear in Revelation chapter 19 - marriage of the Lamb? All pretribbers agree that marriage of the lamb is the Church. I agree with them, yet word, 'church' is not appear anywhere in Revelation chapter 19. Yet, Revelation chapter 19 on the marriage of the Lamb is apply to us as church very clearly.
How about word, 'church' is not apear in Revelation chapter 20 - reign with Christ? All pretribbers agree that we shall be reign with Chist - Revelation 20, yet, word 'church' is not appear anywhere in chapter 20. Yet, chapter 20 speaks very clear it apply to us all.
How about word, 'church' is not appear in Revelation chapter 21 - New Jerusalem - the Bride? All pretribbers agree that the Bride of New Jerusalem is apply to us. I agree with them. Yet, word, 'church' is not appear anywhere in chapter 21, still chapter 20 is speak to us as Church, that we shall dwell with Christ, also, we are Christ's Bride.
No anywhere in chapter 4 to 21 of Revelation saying 'church'is appear UP IN the heaven either.
There is fallacy on preribulationism doctrine on the book of Revelation.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20- Amen! </font>[/QUOTE]Ok, let's see what the Scriptures said.
When is the Marriage of the Lamb?
When is the Judgment Seat of Christ?
When is the reign of Christ?
So it is with the time references. You have chosen to make statements of actual events into figurative nonsense while choosing one definition of certain words. You then enter the passage with the determination that it must mean only that one definition. Nothing like impository eisegesis.
That statement sounds like you.
Revelation opens with things that are near and shortly to happen. Less than 30 years later Jerusalem and the Temple are destroyed, the Old Covenant is over and the new Covenant begins. Context Context Context
Well, to you, "last days" meant 40 years. Very convincing there.
The last 40 years of the Old Covenant that lasted how long? I would say the last 2 or 3% of the Old Covenant qualifies of last days. However your defintion of the last days lasting over 2000 years which is longer than the entire Old Covenant is foolish. I'll stick with my 40 years.
That statement sounds like you.
Revelation opens with things that are near and shortly to happen. Less than 30 years later Jerusalem and the Temple are destroyed, the Old Covenant is over and the new Covenant begins. Context Context Context
Well, to you, "last days" meant 40 years. Very convincing there.
The last 40 years of the Old Covenant that lasted how long? I would say the last 2 or 3% of the Old Covenant qualifies of last days. However your defintion of the last days lasting over 2000 years which is longer than the entire Old Covenant is foolish. I'll stick with my 40 years.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Uh, did anybody ever tell you that
The Book of REVELATION was written
AFTER 70AD? Most likely in 96AD.
IF the events near 70AD were the fulfillment
of Revelation, how come they happened
BEFORE? Come on, that is history, not
prophecy.
In your eschatology, what is the meaning
of the following scripture for us
almost 2000 years later?
Matthew 28:19-20 (nKJV):
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations,
baptizing them in the name of the Father
and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all things that
I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always,
even to the end of the age. Amen
Yep, thats what I was told all my life. Then I decided to study the subject and found the evidence is lacking. I recommend the book "Before Jerusalem Fell" by Kenneth Gentry if you want to seriously study the subject.
This was a command given to the disciples which they carried out. Likewise we are to grow the Kingdom in the same way.