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Featured The Church Not a Mystery

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by OldRegular, Aug 4, 2012.

  1. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    The OP is rather long and it is obvious some have not bothered to read it. I present a part of it here so that these folks can see what God revealed through the Jewish high priests and the Apostle John.
    ***********************************************************

    I would suggest for those interested: Pay particular attention to verses 51 and 52. Did Caiaphas realize that he was being used by God in his remarks and his plot. Obviously not. [Acts 2:23] But note again what these two verses tell us:

    51. And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
    52. And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.


    He prophesied, he didn't realize it, but he prophesied. What?

    1. That Jesus Christ should die for the Jews!

    2. And that Jesus Christ die for all the Children of God scattered abroad.

    3. And that all the Children of God should be gathered together in ONE.

    Now whatever anyone wants to call that ONE, and Jesus Christ calls it His Church, there is only ONE composed of both Jew and Gentile. The Mystery is not as mysterious as some want to make it.

    The passages I presented from the Old Testament and their fulfillment in the New Testament show that the Church was not unknown in Old Testament prophecy!
     
  2. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    mandym

    Before getting too bold you should spend some time meditating on Ephesians 3:5 and not just reproduce it.
     
  3. mandym

    mandym New Member

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    May God grant you the ability to respond to posts with integrity and as much concern for people as you have for your opinions.
     
  4. AresMan

    AresMan Active Member
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    The dispensationalists I know say that the church Jesus established ("upon this rock I will build my church") is NOT the Body of Christ (today). It is the law-keeping "church of Israel" that will be reestablished after the Rapture.
     
  5. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    How can we read the first three chapters of Paul's Letter to the Ephesians and conclude that the church is an afterthought or plan B? I don't get it.

    Scripture must continue to shape our doctrines and not our doctrines shaping Scripture.
     
    #25 TCGreek, Aug 5, 2012
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  6. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    That sounds like hyper dispensationalism to me! I believe there is only One Gospel and One Church consisting of the redeemed throughout time!
     
  7. AresMan

    AresMan Active Member
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    The mystery IS that the Gentiles would be fellowheirs and of the same body. NOT an ontologically distinct body separate from "Israel."

    The mystery that was not clear to the prophets concerning the salvation of Gentiles was that this would be done such that national Israel would no longer be of prominence and that the Gentiles to be saved would be equal with the remnant of faithful Jews.

    Gentiles are grafted into Israel (Rom 11:17 c.f. Jer 11:16).

    According to the Apostle Paul, he and Barnabas, in preaching salvation to the Gentiles, was following the command of God given to Israel in Isaiah 49:

    Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
    Act 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. [Isaiah 49:6]
    Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.


    The command to save the Gentiles was fulfilled in Paul's ministry--yes, the revelation of the "mystery". Isaiah did not understand how this would be fulfilled, but this "mystery" was revealed to Paul.

    Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

    Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:


    This "inheritance" and "the saints" were the remant of the Jews:

    Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

    Act 26:17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
    Act 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
    Act 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
    Act 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
    Act 26:21 For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.
    Act 26:22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
    Act 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.


    Guess what: Paul's ministry to the Gentiles here is "non other things" than what the prophets "say should come"! Here again is an echo of Acts 13:47. The mystery IS the fulfillment of prophecy in such a way that the prophets did not understand.

    Notice also that Paul tells the Corinthian church that the Israelites under Moses were "all our fathers":
    1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
    1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
    1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
    1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


    If the Body of Christ is ontologically distinct from true Israel, how could we claim the ancient Israelites as "our fathers"?
     
    #27 AresMan, Aug 5, 2012
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  8. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I can't. I don't understand how anyone can. However, the doctrine that the Church is a "parenthesis", an "interruption", in God's plan for Israel is deeply ingrained in classic dispensational thought, at least the thought of their theologians.

    I suspect that most of those who claim to be dispensationalists are unaware of this doctrine of the Church but are only the Rapture Ready brand. I have attempted to question dispensationalists in my area about the doctrine of the "parenthesis" Church. Those who should know won't respond, others give you a blank stare, even though they might mention Daniel's 70th week!
     
  9. AresMan

    AresMan Active Member
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    It is. However, that is the primary form of dispensationalism with which I have to deal. This is what led me away from the dispensationalism that I previously had because it is the logical conclusion of it and the only way it can actually "work." In fact, I have used Acts 28 dispensationalist arguments (Bullinger) against my Mid-Acts friends because Acts 28 dispensationalism is really the most "consistent" way it can "work" without being full of holes.
     
  10. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    I believe it's based on a few parables as well.
     
  11. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    :laugh::laugh::laugh:
     
  12. AresMan

    AresMan Active Member
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    And some parables are obvious that geopolitical Israel will lose the kingdom and that it will be given to another "nation."
     
  13. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    The church not a mystery?! :rolleyes: People, the church is such a mystery that even today after 2000 years of proof the Jew still does not recognize it in their scripture and the gentile thinks is foolishness. It only revealed to the elect and to the rest it is a mystery.
    1Cor 1:18
    For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
     
    #33 freeatlast, Aug 5, 2012
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  14. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Exactly correct....:applause::applause::applause: The Nt church is distinct yet the eschatological version that will assemble on the last day is one redeemed body throughout all time:thumbs:
     
  15. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    That is the way I read it!
     
  16. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    As I have noted earlier the OP is long and it appears some have not bothered to read it. I reproduce a part of it here so that these folks can see what God revealed through the Apostle John concerning His sheep.

    ***************************************************************
    Many are fond of quoting the Apostle Paul to defend the “mystery Church”. But consider what Paul tells us concerning the Jews and Gentiles in the Church:

    Ephesians 2:11-22
    11. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
    12. That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
    13. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
    14. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
    15. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
    16. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
    17. And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
    18. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
    19. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
    20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
    21. In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
    22. In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.



    In this passage we see God give the Apostle Paul an exposition on the declaration by Jesus Christ that He had sheep other than the Jews and that He would bring both into one fold. That fold is the Church

    And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

    The Apostle Paul tells us that these other sheep are Gentiles who were without Christ, having no hope, and without God in the world. But now both they and the Jews are reconciled unto God in one body, the Church, by the blood of Jesus Christ. God does this by breaking down the middle wall of partition between Jew and Gentile.

    Sadly those who embrace classic dispensationalism would rebuild that wall in their jewish millennium with its temple and bloody sacrifices.
     
  17. AresMan

    AresMan Active Member
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    This, of course, is also true of the mid-Acts dispensationalists with which I deal. They try to argue that Jesus meant the two "folds" becoming one were the houses of Judah and Israel. They also say that "the nation" to which Jesus said the kingdom would be given was a new "nation" formed by the Jewish apostles. According to them, Jesus took the kingdom away from national Israel to give to "the little flock" (meaning His followers at the time), and He would bring the kingdom through this remnant as the new nation of Israel. This was to be Israel 2.0, and it was the "second chance" to accept the kingdom. After "Israel" "rejected" this "second chance" by stoning Stephen, God began "the dispensation of grace" with the Apostle Paul and began to fade out the "kingdom program" to postpone it.
     
  18. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    It seems that these people really torture Scripture to defend their indefensible doctrine!
     
  19. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
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    A second chance

    Chance is something one finds in casinos, lotteries, bingo parlors and evolution classes.

    There are many who seemingly die without a chance at salvation.

    The chances of a man saving himself are 0 thru infinity.

    There is nothing left to chance with God. HE has saved whomever HE wills from eternity--according to HIS good will and pleasure.

    This is what the Grace and Sovereignty of God is all about.

    Even so, come Lord Jesus.

    Bro James
     
  20. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    As stated in the OP it is a bedrock doctrine of Classic Dispensationalism that the Church was not revealed in prophecy at all!

    That belief is totally inconsistent with Scripture posted in the OP which references Old Testament prophecy by Amos and Hosea and shows their fulfillment in the New Testament. The Apostle Peter expands on those prophecies shortly after Pentecost, following the healing of a crippled man.

    Acts 3:12-26
    12. And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?
    13. The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
    14. But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
    15. And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
    16. And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
    17. And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
    18. But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
    19. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
    20. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
    21. Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
    22. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
    23. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
    24. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
    25. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
    26. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.


    Please note in verse 24 what Peter says: Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

    Peter says that that all the prophets from Samuel announced the events of Pentecost, which some dispensationalists concede was the beginning of the Church.
     
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