The Church of Christ

[DHK]

Originally posted by eschatologist:
DHK

1. Just what covenant system do you think the thief was under? Had Jesus died yet? Because Jesus was still alive, the thief was under the Mosaic covenant. The covenant of grace had not yet been implemented. They were still under the old system in which baptism wasn't a necessary ordinance anyway. The Hebrew writer states:

"Then he said, 'Here I am, I have come to do your will.' He sets aside the first to establish the second"(Heb.10:9).

"By calling this covenant 'new,' he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear"(Heb.8:13).

Hebrews was written around 62-65 AD, and at the time it was written the old covenant still had not totally run its course, but it would soon.

And did the death of Jesus make a difference? Did not John the Baptist baptize before the death of Christ? Did not the disciples of Christ baptize before the death of Christ? Of course they did. But the thief was not baptized, for the thief had not repented.

2. Acts 10:44-48 does not say that they were saved. I am sure they had probably heard the gospel(Act.10:36), but unless you understand what happened here this will probably be a mystery to you. Peter received here a pouring out of the power of the Holy Spirt by God upon the gentile believers in front of the jews so that they could see that God does not show favoritism. This was similar in power to that which came upon the apostles at Pentecost. Since they believed, and theyn even were a witness to the power of the Holy Spirit, so Peter ordered that they be baptized, and he even stayed with them for a few more days.

OK, then. Your conclusion is that Peter baptized unsaved people. Correct? If these Gentiles did not get saved here (as the text clearly says that they did), then Peter baptized unsaved individuals. You don't want to admit that or that baptism is not a part of salvation, so you throw your hands up in despair and say we don't know what happened here. Well I have news for you. The Bible says exactly what happened here.

Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
--They got saved. When a person gets saved, the Holy Spirit comes and indwells the believer.

Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
--The Jews were astonished because they saw the evidence of the Gentiles salvation--the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
--After their salvation they spoke in tongues, another evidence of their salvation, and a sign to the Jews that the message that they believed was from God. Notice that Jews were present.

Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
--Can any man forbid water that these should be baptized? Why? They have been saved! They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have. How clear can it be. You just don't want to believe it because it doesn't fit into your frame of theology.

3) Jesus baptized His apostles, but just as Paul had disciples that took care of most of the baptizing so Paul could preach the gospel, Jesus' disciples did the baptizing as He preached the gospel of truth. If Jesus thought it was such a trivial work as you suggest, He Himself would not have done this as an example to be seen by many.

First, where does it say that Jesus Himself baptized anyone? Chapter and verse please. Concerning Paul, he says plainly that he thanked God that he baptized very few people at Corinth. He praises God for the opportunity of preaching the gospel, but thanks God that he only had to baptize just a few of them. Baptism was not so important to Paul, but preaching the gospel was. Baptism was not part of the gospel, and not needful to be saved. Paul makes a clear demarcation between the two.

4. I can not believe the meaning of these passages have escaped you! Paul did not want the new believers to boast that they were baptized by Paul or into Paul. He preached the gospel, and those disciples helping Paul did most of the baptizing, with certainly Paul there as a witness.

Can you prove this from Scripture? What evidence do you have? Paul said clearly that he thanked God that he baptized very few of them. God sent him not to baptize he said, but to preach the gospel. There is a difference between preaching the gospel and baptizing.

5. Hmmm. How many passages are there that says by believing you are saved, or it is with you mouth that you confess and are saved, or obedience connected with salvation? And then the nearly 150 which states by your faith you are saved as you wrote. Think about it. Maybe, just maybe they are all incorporated under faith, which would make all these statement true and meaningful.

William MacDonald, a reputed scholar, says that there are about 150 passages which state that by faith you are saved. If you want to challenge his research, then go through the Bible thoroughly and see for yourself.

6. It is here that I am finally coming to the conclusion that I am waisting my time with you! How can you mention about "baptism connected with death and burial" which I believe here you are thinking about Romans 6:3f, yet then say baptism is not connected "with spiritual birth???!!!" Did Romans 6:4-13 bounce completely over your head???!!! Maybe the Mars rover will find it for you and take a picture! If you can not wait for this try reading Colossians 2:12 and 1Peter 1:23 and John 3:3-8. Maybe then you will understand what new birth is about in relation to baptism!

The new birth has nothing to do with baptism and never did. In fact a study into 1Peter 1:23 and John 3:3-8 would entirely disprove your idea that baptism has anything to do with salvation at all.

Jesus never spoke in parables concerning baptism. You must be reading some other Bible.
DHK

 

[Eric B]

You stated, if I read you correctly, that baptism was associated with forgiveness of sins. That is definitely how the bible expresses it. So then, you also claim that baptism has no part in salvation. Well, I ask you this question, can someone be saved without forgiveness of sins? I think I saw you shake your head NO. If that is what you believe then you are correct. You can not be saved apart from the forgiveness of sins. So then, whether you realized it or not, you just linked baptism to salvation. Now you need to go back and create another angle to dismiss baptism with salvation-- for this one has failed!

I said, "baptism by one Spirit into one Body", which is becoming saved (a member of Christ's body). Water baptism was associated with that act in the NT (still after it, as DHK shows), but now it is associated with joining an organized church or group. Still, you cannot say they are not saved until they go through with the ceremony.

 

[Frank]

If one is to know the truth of the conversion of Cornelius, he must study Acts 10 in the light of chapter 11.
In Acts 11, the account of the conversion is given "from the beginning by order" ( Acts 11:4). The Holy Spirit fell at the beginning of Peter's lesson ( Acts 11:15). The word began is the Greek word Arco. It means simultaneous with the commencement of an event. It is evident from this passage that Peter's sermon was interrupted at the beginning. Therefore, if the falling of the Spirit provided salvation, Cornelius was saved without faith as Peter was interrupted in providing the word of faith that saves Romans 10:17, James 1:18,21). The idea that Cornelius was saved by the falling of the Holy Spirit is false, as it would not be in harmony with the text of chapter 11. In essence, Cornelius would have been saved before he had heard the word which creates saving faith.
No person in the new testament has ever been saved by the direct operation of the Holy Spirit. No one has been saved without hearing and obeying the gospel of Christ Romans 10:17;6:17,18;1:16,Hebs. 5:8,9, Mark 1:15). No one has been saved without the word of truth.

 

[Eric B]

I think you're reading too much into "began". 10:44 does seem to place this toward the end of his sermon. Ch.11 is a recap, with less detail of the preaching (it just mentions that he spoke and the Holy Spirit fell, without repeating what he said and when he said it in relation to the Spirit's falling) and "in order" means "a subsequent time", not that he mixed up the order of events the first time, but is telling it right this time.
But to you, he spoke the word, the Holy Spirit fell on them, born again, God granted repentance unto life unto the Gentiles (v.18), but they weren't saved because of a ceremony that had yet to occur.
All we get from the passage is that Paul was preaching go them, they somewhere along the line (perhaps toward the beginning of the sermon)believed and were then "baptized with the Holy Ghost" (v.16). As I said, it is that "baptism" (into the Body of Christ) that saved, and then the water symbol followed, outwardly representing the spirit baptism.

 

[DHK]

Frank:

If one is to know the truth of the conversion of Cornelius, he must study Acts 10 in the light of chapter 11.
In Acts 11, the account of the conversion is given "from the beginning by order" ( Acts 11:4). The Holy Spirit fell at the beginning of Peter's lesson ( Acts 11:15). The word began is the Greek word Arco. It means simultaneous with the commencement of an event. It is evident from this passage that Peter's sermon was interrupted at the beginning. Therefore, if the falling of the Spirit provided salvation, Cornelius was saved without faith as Peter was interrupted in providing the word of faith that saves Romans 10:17, James 1:18,21). The idea that Cornelius was saved by the falling of the Holy Spirit is false, as it would not be in harmony with the text of chapter 11. In essence, Cornelius would have been saved before he had heard the word which creates saving faith.

Acts 10:44-48 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Acts 11:15-18 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

“And as I began to speak.” Or, “when I was speaking.” (Barnes)

First the Greek word being used is not arxo, it is arxomai, used in the middle voice with the infinitive (lalew) “to speak.”
Secondly, the account given in chapter 11 is more of a general summary that omits many details given in chapter 10, while including some others.
Thirdly, the sense is that Peter had already been speaking for some time, though he was still at the beginning of his message when the Holy Spirit fell on them. By this time in his message there would have been plenty of time for them to have heard the gospel. And we know this is true from the actual historical account that is recorded in chapter ten. Peter is giving his own summary of events in chapter 11. They heard his word, were saved, and the Holy Spirit fell upon them. Unless you believe that the Holy Spirit comes upon unsaved individuals, and Peter baptizes pagans, then it is only reasonable to believe what the Bible teaches at this point. They heard the Word that Peter preached, were saved, filled with the Spirit, and then following their salvation was baptized.
Baptism follows salvation in every case; and in no case is a part of it.

No person in the new testament has ever been saved by the direct operation of the Holy Spirit. No one has been saved without hearing and obeying the gospel of Christ Romans 10:17;6:17,18;1:16,Hebs. 5:8,9, Mark 1:15). No one has been saved without the word of truth.

No person has ever been saved without the direct operation of the Holy Spirit. If you think you are saved without the operation of the Holy Spirit, then you are not saved.
DHK

 

[BobRyan]

Whosoever Believes – is saved.

Romans 10

Rom 10:8 but what does it say? “the word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved;

saved - salvation to those who believe. The fact that one who believes and is saved will continue to read and study and obey - does not abolish the fact of salvation
just as stated above - at the time we believe.

10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 for the scripture says, “whoever believes in him will not be disappointed.”


In Christ,

Bob

 

[eschatologist]

DHK

1)I guess it is your belief that the ENTIRE process of the new covenant was completed upon the resurrection Christ? What was Pentecost for? Was it some unneeded circus show? How about Antioch? Was that in your eyes unneeded as well? Then what happened in AD 70 to the Jewish nation, as prophesized by Jesus, something you probably believe was nothing more than secular history! (It would be moot to even begin to explain this latter event, it would probably fly right over your head. Although I should start a post on eschatology just to see what you think!).

There was a maturation process from the time Christ commissioned the apostles just before He departed, until the church had arrived at maturity, when the old system, which was slowly fading away, had finally run its course, and the rebellious apostate Jews then met their violent end as predicted by our Lord.

When Christ said "It is Finished," He had completed the work(yes, He said WORK!!![Jo.17:4]) of the Father. What He had accomplished was to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy. (Unless you are like some people and believe He failed in accomplishing this!) After Jesus' death, burial and resurrection, what was left was to restore the kingdom of Israel. This is what took place from the time Christ departed until AD 70. His kingdom, the church(this is sure to cause a few shivers from the Baptists and the like), had navigated its way to completion(though at uneasy times), where then God's promised interdiction took its vengeance upon the unbelieving Jews by destroying their city, sanctuary and covenantal system.

2)He did not baptize unbelievers. He baptized believers who knew the gospel, had repented and confessed their sins to God, then had even received the same power of the Holy Spirit that the apostles had received, as an example that the gentiles COULD be saved just as the Jews could. The baptism they then received completed and fulfilled their salvation, as they then became dead to their old self, had their sins washed away, and arose from being dead in their sins to walk in the newness of life. It was then that they were truly born again.

Acts 10:44 did NOT say they were saved upon receiving the POWER of the Holy Spirit. What you fail to understand is that there is a difference between the GIFT of the Holy Spirit and the POWER of the Holy Spirit. The GIFT of the Holy Spirit is what all believers receive when being baptized, as GIFT from God when the become saved by grace through faith. The POWER of the Holy Spirit is what the apostles conveyed upon the seven disciples who were chosen(who by the way had already received the GIFT of the Holy Spirit[Act.6:3]), and the apostles laid hand on them(they then received the POWER) to which then went on and did great wonders and miraculous signs(Act.6:8). This is the same POWER of the Holy Spirit that Simon the Sorcerer wanted to buy when he witnessed the apostles transferring it to others by the laying on of hands. The apostles also passed on this POWER to Timothy by the laying on of hands(1Tim.1:14; 2Tim.1:6), who by the way was already saved, which allowed him to do miraculous things as a witness for God. Why this has escaped you I do not know, but the bible shows there is a defined difference in the GIFT of the Holy Spirit and the POWER of the Holy Spirit. You may continue to be ignorant of this fact, but that would be between you and God.

Speaking in tongues is not an evidence of salvation as you have claimed. It was a powerful and miraculous event, yes, but was used by those who had the POWER to glorify and magnify God and strengthen and establish His church. Just as when the POWER of the Holy Spirit was used to drive out a demon, raise someone from the dead, or in healing someone, that person did not need to be saved in order for this Power to be effective. Yes in many cases it took faith in that individual that it could be done.

You know as I have read through your comments and have argued the same thing over and over again, my spirit has made me feel that I am beating a dead horse on this issue-- to knock the dust off my feet and move on. I am so sorry, for your benefit, that you put so much of your faith on uninspired men. Are many of these men wise-- yes. Are they intelligent-- yes. Are they always right-- NO! Just as I enjoy reading the writings of the early church fathers, I can conclude this-- they are not always accurate. When the contradict the bible-- go with God! When Paul said, "Let God be true and every man a liar," this is what I feel he had in mind.

Yet I recede gracefully, not in defeat-- but in conscience, humble and meek-- yet strong in the Word of God. I will let the others try to hammer it in, if that is possible. What I do know is we WILL eventually know who was right on this issue. If belief and baptism was necessary-- take your position with the sheep; if they were necessary and you believed and were not baptized-- take your position with the goats; if you believed and baptism was not necessary, yet you were baptized under that condition, is your salvation in jeopardy at any way? Will it cause you harm. I am convicted in the necessity of baptism, for your sake I hope I am wrong. But I feel the bible validates my claim. But as for you, you make the call as to what you do or do not believe, I will just pray for you, and you better hope that you are right. Because the Hebrew writer wrote concerning Jesus said:

"and once made perfect, he became the
source of eternal salvation for all
who obey him"(Heb.5:9).

I hope that you are in obedience so that Jesus will be your source! If not, well I believe you already know the consequences.

Anyway I would be interested in knowing your eschatological views. Go with God.

 

[Frank]

Dhk:
Chapter 11 provides the previous account of conversion by the very order of the events as they took place. The Bible says in Acts 11:4,  But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying,
Furthermore, No one has ever been saved by the DIRECT OPERATION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. The Holy Spirit uses the word to save ( James 1:18,21,Hebs.4:12,I Pet. 1:22). There is no magical whammy from on high that imparts salvation. It requires men to accept evidence and obey it (Romans 10;17, Romans 6:17,18).

The word arco means Peter was interrupted at the commencement of the event of his speaking. You are arguing against the very words the Spirit used in the by order account.

Holy Spirit Baptism does not save as per the following:
1. Jesus was the ONLY one who could baptize by the Spirit. The Bible says in Mat. 3:11, 11  I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
2. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit was a promise to be recieved, not a command to be obeyed. The Bible says in Luke 24:49,49  And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. The Bible says in Acts 2:1-4,And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2  And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3  And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4  And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. The Bible says in Acts 2:16,17, 16  But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17  And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18  And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: ( cf. Joel 2:28).

3. The baptism that saves was to be preformed by human adminsitrators. The bible says in Mat. 28:19,Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

4. The baptism that saves was to continue until the end of the world. The Bible says in Mat. 28:20, Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

5. There is only one baptism today. The Bible says in Eph. 4:4-6, There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5  One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6  One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
It is the immersion of the alien sinner in water that remitts his sin by the blood of Christ. The Bible says in I Peter 3:21,¶The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
(cf. Acts 8:12-18;30-40,Col. 2:12).

 

[DHK]

Eschatologist:

1)I guess it is your belief that the ENTIRE process of the new covenant was completed upon the resurrection Christ? What was Pentecost for? Was it some unneeded circus show? How about Antioch? Was that in your eyes unneeded as well? Then what happened in AD 70 to the Jewish nation, as prophesized by Jesus, something you probably believe was nothing more than secular history! (It would be moot to even begin to explain this latter event, it would probably fly right over your head. Although I should start a post on eschatology just to see what you think!).

First of all I do not believe in covenantal theology. God made a covenant with the nation of Israel, which is yet to be fulfilled. We partake of some of the blessings of that covenant. The only covenant that God has made with New Testament believers is that which He has made with His blood, when He died for us. One might call it the covenant of the gospel. It does not dispense of the covenant that God has made with the Jewish nation, though it does fulfill the law.
The entire gospel is the death, the burial and the resurrection of Jesus Christ, as defined in 1Cor.15:1-4. Baptism does not play a role in salvation, and never has. Salvation was provided at the cross by Jesus Christ and by him alone. When man adds baptism, he takes away from the work of Christ. It is Christ’s work, not man’s. It is God’s grace, not man’s work of baptism. Paul spent much time in the first chapter of First Corinthians differentiating between the gospel and baptism. The one he was called to preach. The other he thanked God that he didn’t.

What happened in 70 A.D.? The Roman general Titus came and destroyed the city of Jerusalem. It was a judgement against the nation of Israel for their rejection of the Messiah. But the Lord did not cast them off forever, as He promised, and as is explained in Romans 11. God has not yet fulfilled his covenant with the nation of Israel. That is still to come.

There was a maturation process from the time Christ commissioned the apostles just before He departed, until the church had arrived at maturity, when the old system, which was slowly fading away, had finally run its course, and the rebellious apostate Jews then met their violent end as predicted by our Lord.

Not at all. The church began at the Day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was sent to indwell every believer. That is when the “church age,” or this age of grace began. All, whether Jew or Gentile, who were to be saved, from this day forward must put their trust in Christ alone and in His shed blood. Nothing else would do. Every Jew would leave his Judaism and become a Christian, just like the Apostles did. Every Gentile would leave his paganism and become a Christian, just like the Gentiles did. There was no difference between Jew and Gentile; we are all one in Christ.
The Book of Acts shows a transitional period during the period of the Apostles. That is why the book is called the “Acts of the Apostles.” It was the history of the churches during the first century, and the changes that happened among them. The first twelve chapters center around Peter and his ministry, and from chapter 13 to the end of the book it centers around Paul and his ministry. Signs and wonders were given to the Apostles during this time to authenticate the gospel message. They were given as a sign to the Jews that the message was from God. Take a look at 1Cor.14:21,22 where it explains that tongues is a sign to the unbelieving Jew. In 70 A.D. judgement did fall upon the Jews, but by that time, many of them had believed and had become Christians. And still God had kept his Word to preserve unto Himself a remnant.

When Christ said "It is Finished," He had completed the work(yes, He said WORK!!![Jo.17:4]) of the Father. What He had accomplished was to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy. (Unless you are like some people and believe He failed in accomplishing this!) After Jesus' death, burial and resurrection, what was left was to restore the kingdom of Israel. This is what took place from the time Christ departed until AD 70. His kingdom, the church(this is sure to cause a few shivers from the Baptists and the like), had navigated its way to completion(though at uneasy times), where then God's promised interdiction took its vengeance upon the unbelieving Jews by destroying their city, sanctuary and covenantal system.

John 17:4 I glorified thee on the earth, having accomplished the work which thou hast given me to do.
--Notice that “having accomplished the work” is in the past tense. It is also the work of Christ that Christ Himself refers to. Nothing but the work of Christ saves. Not our work, such as baptism, but only the work of Christ can save.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
--The seventieth work of Daniel points to a future event, at the end of which Christ will finish the transgression, make an end of sin, make a reconciliation for iniquity, and bring in everlasting righteousness. If you can point to me any age where there has been “everlasting righteousness” between the time of Christ and now, I may accept a different interpretation. But I don’t see any period in history where there has been everlasting righteousness, and I mean everlasting righteousness in this sin-sick, sin-filled, murderous, God-hating, idolatrous, wicked, crime-filled world of ours. Everlasting Righteousness?? How about continuous wickedness that prevails on the face of this earth. Not until the Second Advent when Christ comes for His own, to set up his Millennial Kingdom will there be everlasting righteousness and will he finish the transgression and make an end of sins.
If we still live in a sinful world, and there is no everlasting righteousness, then the Kingdom has not been restored to Israel.
The Church did not take the place of Israel, for Israel still lives today. Israel again will be restored in the future as a nation when they turn to their Messiah, and as a nation will be saved (Rom. 11:26) To say that the church has replaced Israel is a heresy, and lends itself to anti-semitism.

2)He did not baptize unbelievers. He baptized believers who knew the gospel, had repented and confessed their sins to God, then had even received the same power of the Holy Spirit that the apostles had received, as an example that the gentiles COULD be saved just as the Jews could. The baptism they then received completed and fulfilled their salvation, as they then became dead to their old self, had their sins washed away, and arose from being dead in their sins to walk in the newness of life. It was then that they were truly born again.

Salvation is a one time even. It is not progressive. It happens at the moment that a person calls upon the name of the Lord in faith believing that He will forgive his sins on the basis of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. I was baptized two years after I was saved. Does that mean that I was progressively being saved for two years and my salvation was not complete until I was saved. If I had died before I was baptized, would I have gone to Hell? Is that your belief? Progressive salvation is not an option in the Bible. It doesn’t exist. Call upon the name of the Lord an you shall be saved—instantly.
These were Gentiles (unsaved) who had come with Cornelius, to hear the Gospel. The reason they had come was to hear the gospel that they had never heard before. That is why God sent Peter to them—as a missionary to preach the gospel to them. Your theory doesn’t hold water. They heard the Word that Peter preached to them (for the first time), and were saved. At that time they received the Holy Ghost (it came upon them). It was some time after that they were baptized. Their baptism obviously had nothing to do with their salvation.

Acts 10:44 did NOT say they were saved upon receiving the POWER of the Holy Spirit. What you fail to understand is that there is a difference between the GIFT of the Holy Spirit and the POWER of the Holy Spirit. The GIFT of the Holy Spirit is what all believers receive when being baptized, as GIFT from God when the become saved by grace through faith.

You will have a hard time demonstrating that. When I was baptized I got wet. If getting wet is your idea of receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit, then you have a pretty anemic view of salvation, in fact it isn’t salvation at all. Nobody is saved by getting wet. That is simply a superstition. Nobody receives the gift of the Holy Spirit by getting immersed in H2O. Again, more superstition. The Bible teaches no such thing. Baptism gets you wet.

Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
--The Holy Ghost fell on them which heard the Word. This is not a difficult concept. It is the same thing that happened in Acts 2.

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
--They heard his Word; they received his Word; they were saved, and then they were baptized. This is the Biblical pattern throughout Scripture.

The POWER of the Holy Spirit is what the apostles conveyed upon the seven disciples who were chosen(who by the way had already received the GIFT of the Holy Spirit[Act.6:3]), and the apostles laid hand on them(they then received the POWER) to which then went on and did great wonders and miraculous signs(Act.6:8). This is the same POWER of the Holy Spirit that Simon the Sorcerer wanted to buy when he witnessed the apostles transferring it to others by the laying on of hands. The apostles also passed on this POWER to Timothy by the laying on of hands(1Tim.1:14; 2Tim.1:6), who by the way was already saved, which allowed him to do miraculous things as a witness for God. Why this has escaped you I do not know, but the bible shows there is a defined difference in the GIFT of the Holy Spirit and the POWER of the Holy Spirit. You may continue to be ignorant of this fact, but that would be between you and God.

The power of the Holy Spirit is available to those who pray for it, for those who pray to be filled for the Holy Spirit as in Eph. 5:18.
But what is the result of the power of the Holy Spirit. The disciples prayed for power in Acts chapter 4:

Acts 4:29-31 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus. And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

The result of being filled with the Holy Spirit is speaking the Word with boldness. Likewise when one speaks with the power of the Holy Spirit, it is for the same purpose—to witness or speak boldly of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Speaking in tongues is not an evidence of salvation as you have claimed. It was a powerful and miraculous event, yes, but was used by those who had the POWER to glorify and magnify God and strengthen and establish His church. Just as when the POWER of the Holy Spirit was used to drive out a demon, raise someone from the dead, or in healing someone, that person did not need to be saved in order for this Power to be effective. Yes in many cases it took faith in that individual that it could be done.

So a person can be unsaved, a child of the devil, and still have the Power of the Holy Spirit ? What kind of theology permits the unsaved to be filled with the power of the Holy Spirit?

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

You know as I have read through your comments and have argued the same thing over and over again, my spirit has made me feel that I am beating a dead horse on this issue-- to knock the dust off my feet and move on. I am so sorry, for your benefit, that you put so much of your faith on uninspired men. Are many of these men wise-- yes. Are they intelligent-- yes. Are they always right-- NO! Just as I enjoy reading the writings of the early church fathers, I can conclude this-- they are not always accurate. When the contradict the bible-- go with God! When Paul said, "Let God be true and every man a liar," this is what I feel he had in mind.

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. My faith is in the Word of God. Do you consider the writers of the Word of God uninspired? I don’t read much of the church fathers, if at all. My time is spent primarily in the Word of God. Scripture does not contradict Scripture. The Bible teaches clearly that salvation is by faith and not by works. Baptism is a work. What you have done is taken a few verses of Scripture and tried to fit them into a predetermined theology invented by men (Cambell and Strong), and then claim you are the only ones that have the truth. That is fairly presumptuous on your part. Did no one have the truth before the Church of Christ come on the scene? Before Cambell was born?

I hope that you are in obedience so that Jesus will be your source! If not, well I believe you already know the consequences.

John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The only work that God requires of us to be saved is to believe on Him. That is all. Baptism has nothing to do with salvation. Those who believe it does, and put their trust in as much, are putting their trust in a works based salvation, and are in danger of trusting their works instead of Christ alone for salvation. If so, how can such a one be saved? Only Christ can save. Believe and thou shalt be saved.
DHK

 

[Eric B]

Furthermore, No one has ever been saved by the DIRECT OPERATION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. The Holy Spirit uses the word to save ( James 1:18,21,Hebs.4:12,I Pet. 1:22). There is no magical whammy from on high that imparts salvation. It requires men to accept evidence and obey it (Romans 10;17, Romans 6:17,18).

The word arco means Peter was interrupted at the commencement of the event of his speaking. You are arguing against the very words the Spirit used in the by order account.

Holy Spirit Baptism does not save as per the following:
1. Jesus was the ONLY one who could baptize by the Spirit. The Bible says in Mat. 3:11, 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
2. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit was a promise to be recieved, not a command to be obeyed. The Bible says in Luke 24:49,49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. The Bible says in Acts 2:1-4,And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place...

This is confusing the initial falling of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2 with the baptism I have been referring to: "For by one spirit we are baptized into one body" (becoming a Christian or member of Christ's body, by believing on Christ)(1 Cor. 12:13)
Cornelius and his house still received the Spirit after hearing the word and believing, which alone is "accept[ing] evidence and obey[ing] it". And it is Jesus who does this spiritual baptism. He places us in His body by His spirit.

3. The baptism that saves was to be preformed by human adminsitrators. The bible says in Mat. 28:19,Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

this doesn't say that the physical act of baptizing them was what saved. Jesus is telling His disciples to go and preach the Gospel, and when people believe they will become disciples, and then of course, he water baptism was to be the outward sign that they had become disciples. But the act of believing is what saved. They could fake becoming disciples and go along with the baptism and still not be saved, as happened with the many false leaders who crept in.

4. The baptism that saves was to continue until the end of the world. The Bible says in Mat. 28:20, Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

And believing and becoming disciples (baptized into the body of Christ) would continue until the end of the world.

5. There is only one baptism today. The Bible says in Eph. 4:4-6, There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
It is the immersion of the alien sinner in water that remitts his sin by the blood of Christ. The Bible says in I Peter 3:21,¶The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
(cf. Acts 8:12-18;30-40,Col. 2:12).

And this too shows that the true "baptism [that] doth now save" is the spiritual act of believing, by which one's conscience can be cleared of all the guilt of unforgiven sin, not the wetting of the flesh with water. Peter is showing how this was a "figure" or antitype of Noah. He wasn't saved by being in the water, because everyone who perished was in the water (moreso than he, in fact!), but by the faith that led him to obey God and build the ark.

It should also be added, that since baptism was the symbol of one's confession of Christ, as Chrst said "he who confesses me before men shall I confess before My father in Heaven, but he who denies me before men, him will I deny before My father in Heaven." (Matt.10:32,33). Since water baptism had become the primary symbol of one's initial confession, that is why it seems to be tied in with salvation so much. Why would anyone refuse it, unless they were denying Christ? But still, it was the belief that saved, and the outward confession (including baptism) that was to be the sign of it, not the other way around. The same would go for confessing Christ even unto death when tortured or threatened into recanting. If a person denies him then, the Bible would say he was not really saved (he didn't have saving faith), but we would never say that one must be tortured or threatened by a sword and die for Christ in order to be saved.

Today, with all of the different churches and sect, baptism is no longer the symbol of initial conversion, but rather a later act associated with joining a church, after going to membership classes and the rest of any initiation process. The NT may not have authorized this change, but if you want to go back to it, then just go and baptize any new converts you make into Christ without initiating them into your church first. But don't say "no, you have to join our church, and we have to initiate you amd make sure you understand and believe all our doctrines and practices first before you can be baptized" and then say they will not be saved till they get to that last step.

[ February 03, 2004, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: Eric B ]

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Frank:
Dhk:
Chapter 11 provides the previous account of conversion by the very order of the events as they took place. The Bible says in Acts 11:4, But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying,
Furthermore, No one has ever been saved by the DIRECT OPERATION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. The Holy Spirit uses the word to save ( James 1:18,21,Hebs.4:12,I Pet. 1:22). There is no magical whammy from on high that imparts salvation. It requires men to accept evidence and obey it (Romans 10;17, Romans 6:17,18).

A man cannot be saved without the Holy Spirit. Indeed it is solely the operation of the Holy Spirit working through the Word of God that does save. That is the teaching of the new birth in John 3:5. Consider:

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
--It is the Spirit that makes alive; it is the Spirit that gives life; it is the Spirit that saves.

John 16:8-9 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Salvation starts with the Holy Spirit and ends with the Holy Spirit. Baptism is excluded. It has nothing to do with salvation.

The word arco means Peter was interrupted at the commencement of the event of his speaking. You are arguing against the very words the Spirit used in the by order account.

So what! Peter gave the account in order, as he says. What he does not say is that he gave all the details of the account which is obvious from a comparison of the two accounts. Because he was interrupted (as Peter was in Acts 2) does not mean that they didn't hear the gospel message by that time.

Holy Spirit Baptism does not save as per the following:
1. Jesus was the ONLY one who could baptize by the Spirit. The Bible says in Mat. 3:11, 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
2. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit was a promise to be recieved, not a command to be obeyed. The Bible says in Luke 24:49,49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. The Bible says in Acts 2:1-4,And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. The Bible says in Acts 2:16,17, 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: ( cf. Joel 2:28).

Up to this point you have given all the reasons why they were saved. For Peter says:

Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

In both accounts Peter refers back to the Day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came and indwelt all believers. On that day 3,000 were saved without being baptized. They were saved when the Holy Spirit came upon them, when they received the Word. Every believer from that point onward was indwelt with the Holy Spirit, whether or not there was an outward manifestation of it.
The only reason there was an outward manifestation of it here was because of the presence of the Jews who as yet did not believe that salvation was given to the Gentiles.

3. The baptism that saves was to be preformed by human adminsitrators. The bible says in Mat. 28:19,Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

4. The baptism that saves was to continue until the end of the world. The Bible says in Mat. 28:20, Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

5. There is only one baptism today. The Bible says in Eph. 4:4-6, There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

You have this passage all wrong.
First immersion never saves, and the Bible never teaches that it does.
Secondly, as per the Great Commission given in Mat.28:19,20, the command can just as easily read "Go and disciple all nations, baptizing them..." A person is first saved, and then discipled. You cannot baptize an unsaved person. You only baptize disciples, those who are going to obey the Lord in baptism, after they have already been saved. Baptism has no part in their salvation.

Thirdly, "There is only one baptism." But what does that verse mean? There is a twofold sense in which this verse is true.
First, there is one baptim, by which Christ through the operation of the Holy Spirit places us in the family of God (or the body of Christ as some would have it). This happens at the point of salvation when one calls upon the name of the Lord and is saved.
Second, there is one baptism, by which a believer symbolically identifies himself with that salvation or first baptism. This immersion symbolizes his death to his old life to sin and his new life in Christ. It his identification with Christ in his death, burial, and resurrection. The one is symbolic of the other.
I believe what Paul is teaching the Ephesians is that there is no need for multiple baptisms, something he refers to in 1Cor.15:29, a pagan practice. One needs to be baptized only once. But baptism by immersion has nothing to do with salvation.

It is the immersion of the alien sinner in water that remitts his sin by the blood of Christ. The Bible says in I Peter 3:21,¶The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
(cf. Acts 8:12-18;30-40,Col. 2:12).

Where do you get this heresy from? Where in the New Testament do you have an example of any Apostle baptizing an unsaved person? Never! At no time is any unsaved person ever baptized. That is heresy. As Bob has pointed out time and time again, in 1Peter 3:21, it is the appeal to the conscience toward God, not the baptism that saves. Where is the appeal to the conscience? It specifically says in the verse "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh." Baptism has nothing to do with the flesh in this verse. Baptism by immersion cannot wash away sin. It is an appeal to the conscienc. It other words it is faith, and faith alone. It was the Ark that saved Noah from the destruction of the waters. It was Noah that was in the Ark, and the Ark that was immersed in the waters. The believer is in Christ (the Ark). He is immersed in Christ. The word baptism simply means immersed.
Jesus saves.
DHK

 

[Frank]

Dhk:
1. Belief itself is a work. The Bible says in John 6:27  Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28  ¶Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
2. Baptism in water is one of the essential instruments God uses to save. I accept them all as stated in the scriptures. You obviously reject the Holy Spirit who stated through man the following:
1. Repentance saves ( Luke 13:3, Acts 11:18).
2. Confession ( Mat. 10:32, Romans 10:10).
3. Grace ( Eph. 2:8,9).
4. Faith ( Romans 5:1,2).
5. Blood ( I Peter. 1: 17,18).
6. Belief ( John 8:24).
7. Water Baptism ( I Pet. 3:21, Acts 8:12-16,30-40).
God, many times, used various INSTRUMENTS to save. Yet, it was God's power to do the saving by his instrument. God chose the divided waters of the Red Sea to save. It was a baptism ( I Cor. 10:1,2). God chose the baptism of the Israelites in the Red Sea to save them. A figure of salvation to come. In Numbers 21:8,9). Jesus used the instrument of the serpent on the pole to teach us in a figure of him being raised up we too would be saved. The Bible says in John 3:14,15, And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. In John 12:32,33 Jesus said,  And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33  This he said, signifying what death he should die. It is obvious that all these symbols were instrument which God used to save.

Jesus used the example of Jonah being in the belly of the whale for three nights as a reference to teach us that through his resurrection we might be saved. Jesus said in Mat. 12:40, 41, For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41  The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
All of these are symbols or instruments by which God saved. However, they are his instruments, and his power working through them that does the saving.
Peter said the like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us not the putting away of the flesh but the answer to a clear conscience toward God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ ( I Pet. 3:21). This is an obvious reference to the great baptism of the world in water during the days of Noah. Yes, water was simply an instrument to save. However, it was an essential element because the power was God's to save ( I Peter. 3:20, Gen.6,7, Col. 2:12).

I read scripture well. I did not misquote, fail to read any of those posted. Furthermore, no one is claiming the Holy Spirit is not a part of the salvation of man. However, without EXCEPTION, The Holy Spirit saves THROUGH GOD'S INSTRUMENT, THE WORD ( James 1;18,21, Hebs. 4:12). This is a feeble attempt on your part to poison the waters and distract from the truth.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Frank:
Dhk:
1. Belief itself is a work. The Bible says in John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28 ¶Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

This is the only time that Jesus (or anyone else in the New Testament) used the term "work" in relation to salvation. Salvation is entirely the "work" of God. Jesus was saying that it is all of faith, and faith alone. Thus he says that the only "work" (a play on words) that you can do is to "believe" or have faith. Only believe. Only have faith. That was the answer of Christ. It was the same as Paul.

"For by grace are you saved through FAITH, not of works."

2. Baptism in water is one of the essential instruments God uses to save.

You have no evidence for such a lie, only the misinterpretation of Scripture that you have forced into your own preconceived ideas of Cambellism.

I accept them all as stated in the scriptures. You obviously reject the Holy Spirit who stated through man the following:
1. Repentance saves ( Luke 13:3, Acts 11:18).
2. Confession ( Mat. 10:32, Romans 10:10).
3. Grace ( Eph. 2:8,9).
4. Faith ( Romans 5:1,2).
5. Blood ( I Peter. 1: 17,18).
6. Belief ( John 8:24).
7. Water Baptism ( I Pet. 3:21, Acts 8:12-16,30-40).

Nice list Frank. I took your list of seven items, put it into my word processor, and asked my son (in grade 10): "6 out of these 7 terms are related to each other; one is not. Which term is not related to the others?" He knew immediately that water baptism was out of place, because out of your list, it is the only one that is not connected to salvation. Tomorrow I will ask my daughter the same question. She is only in grade 7. If Junior and Senior High School students can so easily see such simple truths, Frank, why can't you? Baptism has nothing to do with salvation. It is not an instrument of salvation. It is a man-made work. It will get you wet, Frank, but it will not save you. And if that is where you have put your faith, then I fear that you have not been saved at all. For it is Christ that saves, not baptism.
Let's consider your list. However, be reminded that belief and faith are the same thing. One who believes is putting their faith in an object. It is the same. You do believe in synonyms.
Belief is trust, and faith is trust. They are not works. Faith has to do with the confidence you put in another, specifically the word of another.
Do you have confidence in God; in God's Word?
What happens initially when one gets saved; when they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. You call it a "living faith" to differentiate from a dead faith or a mental assent. If it is a living faith, that means that it will change a person does it not? How does change come about?
Change can only come through repentance.
Think about that.
Repentance is a change of mind toward God. It is defined in the Bible as "repentance toward God." It is a change of direction from our old sinful way of life to a life of Godly living. That can only be accomplished by: 1. belief--a change of attitude toward God. and 2. the power of the Holy Spirit which comes upon a person and indwells a person when he believes.
Confession--When a person believes, he prays, as Hannah prayed. Praying is that form of confession of sin or sinfulness when one calls upon the name of the Lord. You have heard of the "Sinner's Prayer,"? One admits he is a sinner before he asks for a Saviour. Therefore there is a need for confession. There is still no work involved.
As far as grace and blood are concerned. Salvation is all of grace. It is the grace of God, that God sent His Son to shed His blood to atone for our sins. It is His blood that washes away our sin, not the waters of baptism. Consider:

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
--Either it is of grace or works; it cannot be both. That is what the verse plainly teaches. Baptism is a work. Salvation is of the grace of God, not of works. If baptism is part of salvation, then salvation is no more of grace. It is as simple as that. You believe in a works-salvation. The Bible teaches that salvation is of the grace of God, to be appropriated by faith alone.

God, many times, used various INSTRUMENTS to save. Yet, it was God's power to do the saving by his instrument. God chose the divided waters of the Red Sea to save. It was a baptism ( I Cor. 10:1,2). God chose the baptism of the Israelites in the Red Sea to save them. A figure of salvation to come.

You are wrong there, Frank. This had nothing to do with their salvation. They were already saved when they went across the waters of the Red Sea. It was a physical salvation to deliver them from the armies of the Egyptians. They were the chosen ones of Jehovah; they were already saved; Moses was their deliverer--he had already pointed them to Jehovah long before this.

In Numbers 21:8,9). Jesus used the instrument of the serpent on the pole to teach us in a figure of him being raised up we too would be saved. The Bible says in John 3:14,15, And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. In John 12:32,33 Jesus said, And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die. It is obvious that all these symbols were instrument which God used to save.

This last figure, as you point out, showed how Christ would die. But it also says specifically that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have eternal life. Eternal life comes by faith, and faith alone. The entire figure pictures faith, and faith alone which saves.

Jesus used the example of Jonah being in the belly of the whale for three nights as a reference to teach us that through his resurrection we might be saved. Jesus said in Mat. 12:40, 41, For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
All of these are symbols or instruments by which God saved. However, they are his instruments, and his power working through them that does the saving.

The point: They had faith in the word that Jonah preached, and thus repented.
The application: You need to have faith in the gospel message (death, burial, and resurrection), which also leads to repentance and salvation. Salvation is by faith and faith alone.

Peter said the like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us not the putting away of the flesh but the answer to a clear conscience toward God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ ( I Pet. 3:21). This is an obvious reference to the great baptism of the world in water during the days of Noah. Yes, water was simply an instrument to save. However, it was an essential element because the power was God's to save ( I Peter. 3:20, Gen.6,7, Col. 2:12).

Read carefully: "...save us not the putting away of the flesh but the answer to a clear conscience toward God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." You conveniently side-step this part of the verse which explains the former part of the verse. What saves? An answer or an appeal to a clear conscience toward God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, or the gospel message. Baptism does not wash away sin. It clearly says that--"not the putting away of the flesh." Baptism by water can do nothing but get you wet. It is purely symbolic.

I read scripture well. I did not misquote, fail to read any of those posted. Furthermore, no one is claiming the Holy Spirit is not a part of the salvation of man. However, without EXCEPTION, The Holy Spirit saves THROUGH GOD'S INSTRUMENT, THE WORD ( James 1;18,21, Hebs. 4:12). This is a feeble attempt on your part to poison the waters and distract from the truth.

God's instrument is the Word, not baptism. You have taken many Scriptures out of context and misinterpreted them according to your own Cambellite theology. You misinterpret two or three verses which to you seem to connect baptism to salvation. But upon closer inspection they really don't. In reality you ignore the 150 plus verses that say one is saved by faith.
DHK

 

[Frank]

dhk:

The evidence from scripture teaches that water baptism is essential to the salvation of the alien sinner. Your assertions do not change any of the scriptures posted that teach such.
Your technique of argumentation is unsound. You pit scripture against scripture. Jesus said belief is a work. You then attempt to use Ephesians 2:8,9 to prove your false position. This same approach is used in regards to baptism and salvation.

The Bible must harmonize. You fail to harmonize scriptures concerning salvation and what is required. Furthermore, you should realized that there are different types of works in the Bible, perhaps then you would get it right. The Bible describes works as those of merit ( Eph. 2:9). There are works of righteousness ( Titus 3:5). Works of the Law ( Gal.2:16). The works of Abraham ( James 2:21). Instead, your favorite saying is someone does not understand english.

The scriptures teach all elements essential to salvation, including baptism, and I teach all of them at the exclusion of none of them. Unfortuntately, you cannot do so because your doctrine will not let you.

Moreover, You are ignorant of restoration history. Therefore, you make ignorant and uninformed comments about the Campbells and the church. I have already disproved your fantasy by posting the congregations by location and dates of origin based on local county records. You did not refute the evidence. Again, just a feeble attempt to poison the waters.

You don't have a clue about the preaching of Thomas and Alexander Campbell. If you did, you would not make uninformed statements. You simply parrot what some denominationlist has claimed on an internet website.

Your logic about the number of verses that have faith in them proves that faith only is essential for salvation is unsound. I can provide scriptures that teach repentance without faith saves ( Luke 13:3). I can do the same for confession ( Mat. 10:32, I John 4:2,3,). In Revelation 1:5 blood is said to wash away sin. Is that all that is esssential to salvation? It is the only element mentioned.
Your interpretation of scripture is flawed because you fail to take the totality of the evidence and harmonize it. Therefore, you teach false doctrine.

 

[Stephen III]

Well said Frank, and just as a tangent:

Notice how the Bible says one receives salvation, justification, new birth and eternal life:

By believing in Christ (Jn. 3:16; Acts 16:31
By repentance (Acts 2:38, 2 Pet 3:9)
By Baptism (Jn 3: 5, 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)
By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5, 2 Cor 3:6)
By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)
By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 9:22)
By works (Rom 2:6; James2:24)
By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)
By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)
By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)
By his cross (Eph 2:16; Col 2:14)

Whatever system you subscribe to, it may be a good idea to incorporate all of these. And not to emphasize any over the rest of them as they are all involved in salvation and entry into the church...
(paraphrased from Stephen K. Ray's book Crossing the Tiber, p. 100)

 

[Eric B]

By His blood, cross, righteousness, all ot of His grace, we are able to be justified by believing, thus "coning to the knowledge of the truth", then repenting; and this a "work of the spirit". These are all different aspects of the same thing, as DHK said above. We are at that point baptized "by one Spirit" into one Body, and water baptism, like "declaring" (confessing), was to be the outward sign of faith. But those physical acts are not what saves, only the spiritual acts mentioned above. And as "works", they are credited to God (Juhn 6:29). "work" omplies physical action, and no physical action is requred of us to be saved, though they are to accompany our salvation, as what James 2:24 is saying. romans 2:6 (and 7) is giving us the ideal, that people earn eternal damnation by bad works, and thus eternal life by good works. But as you two sai, you have to take the scripture as a whole, and not set one against the oher. Who does all of the good works necessary to earn eternal life? No one (Ch.3). So the "good works" must be imputed to us, and once we are forgiven, then of course, "do we sin, so that grace may abound? God forbid!" (Ch.6). We are to try to do good works all the time, but we are not to think that that is what is saving us. Else, where do you draw the line when you find (or admit to yourself) that au are imperfect and still sinning? (or does one not admit that and think himself sinless?)

 

[Frank]

Eric:
You contradict the very position you espouse by referencing John 6:29. Please note the context, who is speaiking to whom and the meaning of the words. The Bible says, in John 6:27-29,  Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28  ¶Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Jesus replied to the question by the apostles what must WE DO to work the works of God? Jesus said," This is the work of God that YE BELIEVE on him whom he hath sent."
Jesus requires the work of belief of all who would get to heaven. The context, the meaning, and the reply of Christ( Who) to the disciples ( Whom), is abundantly clear. Now, if you want to change your defintiion of work, then you can and also must change the other word meanings in the text if you want your position to stand. Belief is a work of God that, according to Jesus, is what we ( Ye) must do.
It is abundantly clear men do not, and cannot not EARN through their work salvation. However, men must have an active working faith to receive salvation. The scriptures teach a working faith saves, not a dead one ( Hebrews 11:6,8, James 2:21,24).

 

[eschatologist]

EricB

Are we now saying confession is only obedience and not a part of salvation. Then I guess we need to start ripping all those pages out of the bible and throw them into the can with those baptism verses!

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Frank:

You contradict the very position you espouse by referencing John 6:29. Please note the context, who is speaiking to whom and the meaning of the words. The Bible says, in John 6:27-29, Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28 ¶Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Jesus replied to the question by the apostles what must WE DO to work the works of God? Jesus said," This is the work of God that YE BELIEVE on him whom he hath sent."
Jesus requires the work of belief of all who would get to heaven. The context, the meaning, and the reply of Christ( Who) to the disciples ( Whom), is abundantly clear. Now, if you want to change your defintiion of work, then you can and also must change the other word meanings in the text if you want your position to stand. Belief is a work of God that, according to Jesus, is what we ( Ye) must do.

And everything that follows BELIEF in the Lord's substitionary work on the cross is a work of man including baptism, which can never save, for that very reason--it is man's work and not God's.
DHK

 

[eschatologist]

DHK


In regards to your post on page 5, "The power of the Holy Spirit comes to those who pray for it." Well then when you get it you should be able to heal all diseases, restore witherd limbs and raise people from the dead, unless you believe you do not have the same POWER as the apostles had!