The Church Universal

[saturneptune]

We've had this discussion before (I'm not going to look up the thread(s)) and some folks simply won't concede there is both a universal/invisible Church and local/visible churches spoken on in the NT.

By acknowledging the former we don't automatically become "Roman Catholic" or some other moniker of heresy. Rather, since the earliest days of Christianity it has always been the orthodox position that there is both a universal and local church. All believers are part of the corporate body of Christ, the universal Church which is invisible until the eschatological consummation of the age. Until then we are called to remain faithful in our involvement and support of a local community of believers to which we are called to share life and worship.

That's it for me. Y'all have fun.

You can run, but you cannot hide, LOL. I do think there is a universal church of all believers throughout all ages, sometimes called the Kingdom of God. What I am trying to say is that the universal church has no useful function on this earth. As an organization, they do nothing towards the work of the Lord, the local church does.

 

[Greektim]

You can run, but you cannot hide, LOL. I do think there is a universal church of all believers throughout all ages, sometimes called the Kingdom of God. What I am trying to say is that the universal church has no useful function on this earth. As an organization, they do nothing towards the work of the Lord, the local church does.

So what does the Kingdom of God do then?

 

[saturneptune]

So what does the Kingdom of God do then?

It awaits its proper role in eternity: the huge assembly as described in Revelation, marriage supper, bride, and whatever else God has in store. Here on earth, individual members of the universal church work for the Lord in the framework of local church, but as an entity, the universal church on earth does nothing.

 

[Rippon]

Rippon, like every other challanged [sic]that is given to you, you ignore it.

[sic]Universal church is closely aligned with the RCC. They are the universal church.

Your ignorance of vital truths is quite plain to see.

You have no interest in discussing God's sovereignty, grace, or any other doctrine.

Why don't you dip into the archives before you issue yet another falsehood?

You want to argue.

Coming from you? You don't want to edify,but demean at the drop of a hat.

 

[Rippon]

Sat/Nep: Do you believe Acts 20;28? It says : "the church of God which He bought with His own blood." Does the shed blood of Christ upon the cross apply to the Church Universal or not? Of couse it applies to all regenerate people scattered around the globe --members of the Church Universal!
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Have you ever sung The Church's One Foundation Is Jesus Christ Her Lord? Did you believe the words you sang?


Sat/Nep: The Bride of Christ is the church universal. All the local bodies of bvelievers scattered throughout the earth constitutes the Church Universal.

To be a Universalist one would have to believe that every single person will be going to Heaven. I obviously do not hold to that.

Sat/nep: Please respond to the specifics above.

 

[Tom Butler]

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
Are the body of Christ and the church the same thing? Sounds like it.
If "the church" is only a reference to the local instance and not of the whole, does ever local church have apostles, prophets, teachers, and such?[

Paul os writing to FBC Corinth--a local congregation. He calls FBC Corinth THE body of Christ. Not just A body of Christ, but THE body of Christ. This church, as every church, is a self-contained, a combination of different parts working together as a functioning entity. It is designed to carry out the desires of the Head. Just the same as the human body carries out the desires of the brain, located in the head.

]We also see in the greeting of this epistle the following:

1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

I would say that Paul, being a missionary was not a "member" of the local church of Corinth. Else he would have to be a "member" of all the churches he planted and/or to which he wrote epistles. Whatever the case, he said to the people of the church at Corinth:

Notice that he called FBC Corinth THE church which is at Corinth.

]1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

If the church and the body are not one and the same, we have a problem for the local-church-onlyists, because Paul also said:

Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Are there more than one fulnesses of Christ that fill "all in all"?
If Christ is given "head over all things" to "the church," how can this be divided?

In 1 Cor 12:13, the Greek en is more accurately translated "in" rather than "by." Thus, the verse reads "For IN one Spirit, we were all baptized into one body.... "

Rather than referring to Spirit baptism, it simply means that being in or under the power of the Holy Spirit, we are brought by the Lord to baptism, and made members of His body, the local church.

]Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

I don't know of any local assembly that has endured throughout all ages.]

Here Paul uses "church" in the generic sense. Throughout the ages, wherever there is a New Testament congregation,God receives glory in it

I don't know of a local assembly either that has survived since NT times. But I do hold that a NT assembly has always been in existence since then.

]Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

If marriage was a picture of the mystery hid in God of Christ and the church, how can "they two" be a picture of Christ and His many "the bride"'s?

Is Paul writing to the Universal Church or a local church? Is not Christ the head of each local congregation? Is he not head of the church just as the husband is head of the wife? A real, assembling church and a real wife?

 

[saturneptune]

Sat/nep: Please respond to the specifics above.

There is no argument with you about Acts 28:20. Christ's blood redeemed every sin of every believer for all times. That has nothing to do with the question being asked. The universal church as an organization has no useful function on this earth. The local church carries out the work of the Lord.

Yes, I have sung the hymn many times, 25 years as a Presbyterian and 35 years as a Baptist.

I agree that the Bride of Christ is the universal church. That function is in eternity, not here on earth. God's work is done through the local churches. Just to make things clear, there are many on the rolls of the local churches that are not saved. None of that has anything to do with the fact God uses local churches to accomplish His will.

When we are all standing before the Lord in eternity, the local churches will cease to exist and have no function, and the universal church will be the focus. A more proper term is the Kingdom of God.

As to your last statement, I said you were a universalist because you gave some credibility to the founding of the RCC. They claim to be the universal church. There is nothing in their doctrine that parallels Scripture. Again, the three models are RCC, universal, visible church, Protestant, universal invisible, and Baptist, local visible.

This is just my personal opinion, but if you would read other's posts carefully, you would see that there are areas of agreement on which you could build a bridge to other posters. Instead, you look for differences and go after them with a vengence.

If you will stop and think about it, for the most part we are in complete agreement on theology, especially on sovereignty. That is much more important than the character of John Calvin, which we will never agree. I don't understand why you focus on the disagreements instead of common ground.

 

[preachinjesus]

I do think there is a universal church of all believers throughout all ages, sometimes called the Kingdom of God.

Okay, but I don't believe the Kingdom of God is the universal Church. The Kingdom of God is something greater than that, though its redeemed citizenry is the universal Church of all ages.

What I am trying to say is that the universal church has no useful function on this earth. As an organization, they do nothing towards the work of the Lord, the local church does.

Well, I think we can all agree that the universal Church will meet twice in the history of mankind. Once at Pentecost and the second at the eschaton.

Functionally, there is no way for the universal Church to meet on this side of heaven.

 

[Herald]

The universal church (or simply "the Church") serves a great purpose; it provides the unity by which all believers are bound to Christ. It is why our prayers for persecuted brethren in Asia can ascend before the throne room of God the Father; because they are mediated by God the Son. There is not a necessary disconnect between the Church and local church. All local churches are joined to the Church, of which Christ is the head. Not a pope. Christ.

 

[Tom Butler]

In heaven, they won't call it the Universal Church. It'll be called the General Assembly. And for the first time, and forever afterward, it will assemble.

 

[convicted1]

Right. "The church" not "the churches he purchased with his own blood."

Singular.

Jesus said "I will build my church..." not "I will build my churches..."

This "there is no universal church" business has no exegetical support.

:applause::thumbs::applause::thumbs:

 

[convicted1]

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Have you ever sung The Church's One Foundation Is Jesus Christ Her Lord? Did you believe the words you sang?

These are some snips from it.

She is from every nation,Yet one o'er all the earth

The church will never perish!

and the great church victorious shall be the church at rest.

Yet she on earth hath union with God the three in one.
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Sat/Nep: the Bride of Christ is the church universal. All the local bodies of bvelievers scattered throughout the earth constitutes the Church Universal.

:thumbs::applause::thumbs::applause:

 

[convicted1]

Best proof for the "universal" church is Galatians 1 and the switching from singular church to plural churches drawing a clear distinction.

Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead—
Gal 1:2 and all the brothers who are with me, To the churches of Galatia:

Gal 1:13 For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it.

Gal 1:22 And I was still unknown in person to the churches of Judea that are in Christ.

:applause::applause::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[convicted1]

Jesus Christ died for the Church, not churches. He is the Head of THE Church universal, as well as the autonomous churches scattered abroad.

 

[saturneptune]

Jesus Christ died for the Church, not churches. He is the Head of THE Church universal, as well as the autonomous churches scattered abroad.

I believe Christ died for the Church (singluar). I believe there is a universal church. I guess I am not getting my point across very well. Here on earth, not in eternity, here and now, God uses the local church to carry out his work. Missionaries are supported by local churches, the Lord's Supper is administered by a local church, baptisim is carried out by a local church. When Christ returns, the local churches no longer serve a purpose. Then, the universal church takes over. I do not believe one post said there is no universal church.

The one exception to that is that in West Virginia, all Baptisms are carried out by John Calvin.

 

[convicted1]

I believe Christ died for the Church (singluar). I believe there is a universal church. I guess I am not getting my point across very well. Here on earth, not in eternity, here and now, God uses the local church to carry out his work. Missionaries are supported by local churches, the Lord's Supper is administered by a local church, baptisim is carried out by a local church. When Christ returns, the local churches no longer serve a purpose. Then, the universal church takes over. I do not believe one post said there is no universal church.

The one exception to that is that in West Virginia, all Baptisms are carried out by John Calvin.

So, this explains why our forestry always get burnt to a crisp. I guess John is chasing Michael through the woods, with flames of fire snapping at Michael's heels....:tongue3:

 

[saturneptune]

So, this explains why our forestry always get burnt to a crisp. I guess John is chasing Michael through the woods, with flames of fire snapping at Michael's heels....:tongue3:

So I guess the KY WV border seperates Calvinism from Arminianism. Too bad for you that your ended up on the wrong side.

 

[convicted1]

So I guess the KY WV border seperates Calvinism from Arminianism. Too bad for you that your ended up on the wrong side.

Heb. 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Nope. We're on the right side, and will be raised on the right, being right with God. Johnny Boy made sure that he carried this verse out personally.

You, being on the left, will be left out. LOL

Just kidding about that last part, and you being on the left.

 

[convicted1]

So I guess the KY WV border seperates Calvinism from Arminianism. Too bad for you that your ended up on the wrong side.

Michael lost, but didn't end up on the short end of the stick. He got all the sticks, with a bunch of matches to boot.

 

[saturneptune]

Michael lost, but didn't end up on the short end of the stick. He got all the sticks, with a bunch of matches to boot.

Speaking of matches, how about your breath and camel gas.