The concept of the Elect.

(Gal 1:15) But when God, who had set me apart from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, was pleased

(Gal 1:16) to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood,

Yes, I can see that it says that, but why did God have to wait for Paul to be born. He didn't have to wait for John the Baptist to be born, who was also prophesied in the Old Testament

 

Your statements about them is more hyper then true so I still don't agree with you. The bible never suggests that a person cannot hold those views and not be saved.
They hold that Jesus is the Son of God who paid the price for man’s sin, born of a virgin, died on a cross, and rose the after the third day and salvation is by grace through faith. I would say that makes them believers/saved.

 

Paul was a member of the same Sanhedrin that crucified our Lord. It would seem that God wanted Paul to have a good witness of a man completely changed by his coming to believe in Jesus Christ. Before his Salvation it was Pauls Job to hunt down Christians and murder them.
MB

 

You need to look at the Eph passage closer. It does not say this;

According as He hath chosen us to be in Him.

It says;
According as he hath chosen us in him

There is a big difference. The passage is saying that all who are in Him are chosen to be holy and wihtout blame before Him in love and this was done before the foundation of the world. Not that He chose who would be in Him.

Here is another translation;
NLT
Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes.

 

Van

(Acts 17:24-27 NASB ) "The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all life and breath and all things; and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

So the above seems to be indicating that the appointed times and boundaries of habitation of every person who has ever lived was known far in advance by God. You could claim based on the above that it is only nations that he knows about in advance, but clearly the implication is individuals I think, especially in light of what David says regarding God's foreknowledge of him long before he was born:

(Psa 139:15-17 NASB) My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth; Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me When as yet there was not one of them. How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God! How vast is the sum of them!

That first verse is controversial, but to me its saying that before microorganisms or any lifeforms even emerged on the surface of the earth, when such things were first still being wrought by natural processes deep in the heart of the earth, that God knew about David and all the days ordained for him.

Psalms 87 is clearly prophetic of the future kingdom of God, and in the Psalm God is describing prophetically specific but unnamed individuals in that future Kingdom, who came from various Gentile nations of the earth.

(Psa 87:3-6 NASB )

Glorious things are spoken of you, O city of God. Selah.

"I shall mention Rahab and Babylon among those who know Me; Behold, Philistia and Tyre with Ethiopia: 'This one was born there.'"

But of Zion it shall be said, "This one and that one were born in her"; And the Most High Himself will establish her.

The LORD will count when He registers the peoples, "This one was born there." Selah.

So, I'm just saying all these passages seem to touch on your claim that God, generally speaking, only chooses individuals for Salvation after they are actually born. These passages seem to suggest to me otherwise.

 

Van to be honest I have not completely ruled out your thesis though:

It seems for it to be true though, that God has to limit his foreknowledge so that in some sense he is experiencing the world intermittently from a limited vantage point as we do. If God knows eons in advance that he will choose Paul after Paul is born, then the choice was made when God knew about it (eons ago). And if God's own choice is a surprise to him when it happens, then he is not even omniscient regarding his own nature, unless he is voluntarily suspending his omniscience.

 

When taken apart like that it is kind of a conundrum isn't it.

 

It does not say "all who are in him": it says he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world.

God:
1. "Before He made the world"
2. "loved us" and
3. "chose us in Christ"
4. "to be holy and without fault in his eyes."

So God loved us before He made the world. That is far different than your assertion:

Your interpretation is faulty even by NLT standards!

 

Van in all honesty, I had started to post here that in reality I Peter 2:10 seems to be really strongly in support of your view, because of the emphatic way it talks about his readers once not having recieved mercy, and once previously they were not a people of God but that NOW they were these things, so clearly it seems to suggest election as something occurring at a point in time, at a point after people are already alive, not in eternity past.

But I did a search of "once mercy" just to bring up 1 Peter 2:10 so I could post it here, and it actually brought up two verses, and the other verse that it brought up completely changed my mind:

(1 Pet 2:10 NKJV) Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

(1 Tim 1:13 NKJV) Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.

The second passage in Timothy is Paul himself talking. And as you already noted he was chosen while still in the womb (at the latest). But he also notes that he was once a blashphemer but was (subsequently evidently) shown mercy, this all in spite of the fact that he was chosen by God from birth. So, I would say now, that the recepients of Peter's letter could have also been previously chosen (long before birth) and 1 Peter 2:10 still be applicable to them.

 

Some people will invent new doctrines because the old proven ones are not ticklish enough.

 

Van, I can come back and hit your most recent points, but first could you address the following:

(Acts 13:48 NASB) When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

 

Christians who see the effects of the fall of Adam towards us can see DoG throughout the Bible, those who refuse to accept that truth of we are now spiritual dead in Adam refuse to see those in the scriptures!

 

Appointed in this passage is in the perfect tense, it reflects idea that the time of the appointing of the gentiles was in the past, but has something ongoing invloving that past time action...

the gentiles were appointed by God in the past sense of they placed faith in Christ as God had already appointed them to do!

 

What???? I can't understand any of this! Please speak English and complete sentences.

 

the gentiles were appointed by God BEFORE they actually even heard the Gospel, and due to them already being set apart/apointed by God to receive it and believe it, they placed faith in christ.....

God chose them first, they responded to Him in return!

 

Thank you. Much more coherent. :thumbsup: