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Hi Mark, God does as He pleases. If He had wanted to exhaustively control everything, He could do that. He is God Almightly. For you to suggest I do not agree with that is simply a slanderous attack on me personally.
But lets return to what scripture says. When did God choose Paul. (1) before creation. (2) from the womb. How does it read to you. If you deny God chose Paul from the womb, we cannot continue because without a committment to truth, the discussion goes the way of most discussions with Calvinists because they will say anything such as all elections occurred before creation.
Your statements about them is more hyper then true so I still don't agree with you. The bible never suggests that a person cannot hold those views and not be saved.Anyone who believes the following:
1) God and creatures enjoy mutually-influencing relations,
2) the future is open and God does not fully know or settle it
Does not know the God of the Bible.
Paul was a member of the same Sanhedrin that crucified our Lord. It would seem that God wanted Paul to have a good witness of a man completely changed by his coming to believe in Jesus Christ. Before his Salvation it was Pauls Job to hunt down Christians and murder them.(Gal 1:15) But when God, who had set me apart from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, was pleased
(Gal 1:16) to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood,
Yes, I can see that it says that, but why did God have to wait for Paul to be born. He didn't have to wait for John the Baptist to be born, who was also prophesied in the Old Testament
So the Apostle Paul is mistaken when he wrote:
For God is not the author of confusion, [1 Corinthians 14:33]
and:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love [Ephesians 1:4]
Him is Jesus Christ!
So the Apostle Paul is mistaken when he wrote:
For God is not the author of confusion, [1 Corinthians 14:33]
and:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love [Ephesians 1:4]
Him is Jesus Christ!
(Gal 1:15) But when God, who had set me apart from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, was pleased
(Gal 1:16) to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood,
Yes, I can see that it says that, but why did God have to wait for Paul to be born. He didn't have to wait for John the Baptist to be born, who was also prophesied in the Old Testament
Van to be honest I have not completely ruled out your thesis though:
It seems for it to be true though, that God has to limit his foreknowledge so that in some sense he is experiencing the world intermittently from a limited vantage point as we do. If God knows eons in advance that he will choose Paul after Paul is born, then the choice was made when God knew about it (eons ago). And if God's own choice is a surprise to him when it happens, then he is not even omniscient regarding his own nature, unless he is voluntarily suspending his omniscience.
So the Apostle Paul is mistaken when he wrote:
For God is not the author of confusion, [1 Corinthians 14:33]
and:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love [Ephesians 1:4]
Him is Jesus Christ!
Response by freeatlast
You need to look at the Eph passage closer. It does not say this;
According as He hath chosen us to be in Him.
It says;
According as he hath chosen us in him
There is a big difference. The passage is saying that all who are in Him are chosen to be holy and wihtout blame before Him in love and this was done before the foundation of the world. Not that He chose who would be in Him.
Response by freeatlast
Here is another translation;
NLT
Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes.
The passage is saying that all who are in Him are chosen to be holy and wihtout blame before Him in love and this was done before the foundation of the world. Not that He chose who would be in Him.
Van in all honesty, I had started to post here that in reality I Peter 2:10 seems to be really strongly in support of your view, because of the emphatic way it talks about his readers once not having recieved mercy, and once previously they were not a people of God but that NOW they were these things, so clearly it seems to suggest election as something occurring at a point in time, at a point after people are already alive, not in eternity past.
But I did a search of "once mercy" just to bring up 1 Peter 2:10 so I could post it here, and it actually brought up two verses, and the other verse that it brought up completely changed my mind:
(1 Pet 2:10 NKJV) Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
(1 Tim 1:13 NKJV) Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.
The second passage in Timothy is Paul himself talking. And as you already noted he was chosen while still in the womb (at the latest). But he also notes that he was once a blashphemer but was (subsequently evidently) shown mercy, this all in spite of the fact that he was chosen by God from birth. So, I would say now, that the recepients of Peter's letter could have also been previously chosen (long before birth) and 1 Peter 2:10 still be applicable to them.
Van
(Acts 17:24-27 NASB ) "The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all life and breath and all things; and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
So the above seems to be indicating that the appointed times and boundaries of habitation of every person who has ever lived was known far in advance by God. You could claim based on the above that it is only nations that he knows about in advance, but clearly the implication is individuals I think, especially in light of what David says regarding God's foreknowledge of him long before he was born:
(Psa 139:15-17 NASB) My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth; Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me When as yet there was not one of them. How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God! How vast is the sum of them!
That first verse is controversial, but to me its saying that before microorganisms or any lifeforms even emerged on the surface of the earth, when such things were first still being wrought by natural processes deep in the heart of the earth, that God knew about David and all the days ordained for him.
Psalms 87 is clearly prophetic of the future kingdom of God, and in the Psalm God is describing prophetically specific but unnamed individuals in that future Kingdom, who came from various Gentile nations of the earth.
(Psa 87:3-6 NASB )
Glorious things are spoken of you, O city of God. Selah.
"I shall mention Rahab and Babylon among those who know Me; Behold, Philistia and Tyre with Ethiopia: 'This one was born there.'"
But of Zion it shall be said, "This one and that one were born in her"; And the Most High Himself will establish her.
The LORD will count when He registers the peoples, "This one was born there." Selah.
So, I'm just saying all these passages seem to touch on your claim that God, generally speaking, only chooses individuals for Salvation after they are actually born. These passages seem to suggest to me otherwise.
In the Acts 17:24-27 passage, it can be understood to be saying God created out of one many nationalities, and established their times and boundaries.
But lets zero in on the premise that everything is foreordained. Why does scripture say if they might perhaps seek God, if some are to be compelled to seek God and others compelled by their spiritual inability to never seek God.
Next you bring up David and "unformed substance". Here we must consider what an "unformed substance" might be. A substance is something and does not point to before conception. A baby grows from an egg and changes shape and over time the body takes shape. Therefore, any baby in early development is an unformed substance.
Clearly "from the womb" God had a plan for David, including how long David would live. Does this say God planned for David to become a murder? Nope. The key here is to recognize that God's plan included David in the line of Jesus, a type for the King of Kings. Thus, again we have God choosing David for His purpose, but to say this was David's individual election for salvation seems to conflict with 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 1 Peter 2:9-10 and others that say we start out as children of wrath and are chosen for salvation based on God accepting our faith in Christ. Now under the Old Covenant, the OT saints gained approval - not new Covenant salvation - through faith in God. After Christ died, then they received the promise at the same time and not before the New Covenant, see Hebrews 11.
I am not sure what to make of your reference to Psalm 87:3-6. It is a song about the "City of God." If your point is God makes prophecies, yes He does. But if you think being born in a place, or with a bloodline, indicates God's choice of salvation, you need to read John 3 again. We must be born anew!!
In summary, according to my understanding of scripture, God only chooses individuals for salvation after they have lived without mercy and after He credits their faith in Christ as righteousness.
Have you thought about the implications of James 2:5. God chose folks who were poor to the world, rich in faith and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love Him. If a person was chosen before creation, they could not be poor in the eyes of the world, they could not be rich in faith, and they would not be heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love Him. They would instead have to love Him to be an heir to that promise, they would have to exist to be rich in faith, and the world's bogus value system would have to exist for them to be poor according to the world.
Van, I can come back and hit your most recent points, but first could you address the following:
(Acts 13:48 NASB) When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
Appointed in this passage is in the perfect tense, it reflects idea that the time of the appointing of the gentiles was in the past, but has something ongoing invloving that past time action...
the gentiles were appointed by God in the past sense of they placed faith in Christ as God had already appointed them to do!
What???? I can't understand any of this! Please speak English and complete sentences.
the gentiles were appointed by God BEFORE they actually even heard the Gospel, and due to them already being set apart/apointed by God to receive it and believe it, they placed faith in christ.....
God chose them first, they responded to Him in return!