The concept of the Elect.

Understanding Acts 13:48

Lets ask a few basic questions.

1) What is the meaning of the Greek word translated "appointed." Does it mean to be unilaterally chosen for a task? Nope. It refers to a mutual agreement. So for the verse to mean what Calvinism claims, we have to redefine the meaning of the word.

2) According to the verse, who did the appointing? The truthful answer is the verse does not say, so we must look at the context to discern the most likely actor. Calvinism claims God did the appointing. But do you see that in the verse or in the context? Nope.

Who had presented the gospel requirements? Paul. Who accepted those requirements and agreed to the appointment? The Gentiles. Look back at verse 46 if you doubt the context is how folks reacted to the message of the gospel.

Now what is the requirement of the gospel, that all those who agreed to follow would obey? Believe!!

 

Reply to Misrepresentation;

In Matthew 7, we have folks proclaiming Christ, saying Lord, Lord. Since this choice is the same as God's choice, according to your misrepresentation of my view, they saved themselves. Fat Chance.

God told us what to do, believe in Him, and when we do in obedience to Him, that still does not save us, for it is God who credits or not our faith as being from the heart and whole hearted, and it is God who puts us in Christ or not.

Romans 9:16 clearly teaches salvation does not depend upon us willing to be saved, but at the same time it teaches men can will to be saved and yet not be saved. Just read it folks.
Calvinism denies Romans 9:16. On the one hand they say men cannot will to be saved, for they are dead, and on the other, that if men will to be saved, that automatically saves them. Wrong on both fronts, see Romans 9:16.

 

Reply to Mark,

Mark, I did not see where you addressed my points, but simply made arguments based on other verses. Well lets go over your last statements.

In the vast majority... no evidence of mutual agreement.

As I said, for Calvinism to be defended, words have to be redefined.

Lets consider appointed:

“Tasso appears in various forms eight times in the New Testament. Below is a list of the various English words used to translate the various forms of the root Greek word transliterated “tasso.”

Matthew 28:16 – “designated” (NASB); “told” (NIV); “directed” (ESV, HCSB); “appointed” (NKJV, YLT);
Luke 7:8 – “placed” (NASB, HCSB, NKJV and YLT); omitted (NIV); “set” (ESV);
Acts 13:48 – “appointed” (NASB, NIV, ESV, HCSB, NKJV and YLT);
Acts 15:2 – “determined” (NASB, NKJV); “appointed” (NIV, ESV); “arranged” (HCSB, YLT);
Acts 22:10 – “appointed” (NASB, ESV, NKJV, YLT); “assigned” (NIV, HCSB);
Acts 28:23 – “set” (NASB); “arranged” (NIV, HCSB); “appointed” (ESV, NKJV, YLT);
Romans 13:1 – “established” (NASB, NIV); “instituted” (ESV, HCSB); “appointed” (NKJV, YLT);
1 Corinthians 16:15 - "devoted themselves" (NASB, NIV, ESV, HCSB, NKJV); set themselves (YLT);

If we sum up the various English words used to translate the forms of “tasso” here is the result:

appointed nineteen times,
designated one time,
told one time
directed two times,
set two times
placed three times
determined two times
arranged four times
assigned four times
established two times
instituted two times
devoted themselves two times
set themselves one time.

From this we can conclude that most modern translations agree that “appointed” best translates the idea being conveyed by the use of the various forms of the Greek “tasso.” Now the English definition of “appoint” from the “American Heritage Dictionary” is (1) to select or designate to fill an office or position; (2) to fix or set by authority or mutual agreement. The person designated to the position becomes the “appointee.” And the act of appointing is an appointment. Those who agree with the designated arrangement are therefore appointed to whatever the arrangement is.


To appoint, therefore, is the result of someone in authority or otherwise respected telling someone willing what to do. This is the meaning in every case where the term is used in the New Testament. When the person does what they were told to do, they are fulfilling the appointed task. Now lets look at all the verses using the NASB translation choices.

In Matthew 28:16, scripture says the disciples proceeded to the mountain which Jesus had designated. The word translated designated is the Greek term that means appoint. Jesus had told the disciples where to go, and when they responded by accepting the direction then meeting at the location, the mountain, had been appointed. Another way to look at it is they had been appointed to the meeting location because they accepted Christ's direction.

In Luke 7:8, scripture says, "For I also am a man placed under authority...." The word translated as placed is the Greek term that means appoint. When the officer accepted the direction of His superiors, he was appointed under authority.

In Acts 13:48, scripture says "... and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." The word translated "had been appointed" is the Greek term that means appoint. Paul had presented the gospel of Christ to the Gentiles and as many as received the gospel and took direction from Paul to eternal life, believed.

In Acts 15:2, scripture says "...the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others should go...." The word translated as determined is the Greek term that means appoint. When Paul and Barnabas and the others accepted the direction to go, then it was appointed for them to go.

In Acts 22:10, scripture says "... and there you will be told of all that has been appointed for you to do." The word translated as appointed is the Greek term that means appoint. When Ananias received direction as to what to tell Paul, then he was appointed to the task my mutual consent.

In Acts 28:23, scripture says, "And when they had set a day for Paul...." The word translated as set is the Greek term that means appoint. A group of Jews made an arrangement with Paul to meet on a certain day, so the thing appointed was the day.

In Romans 13:1, scripture says, "...for there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God." The word translated established is the Greek term that means appoint. God has said that government be established and provided rules and so the authorities that exist are the "things" appointed. As a side note, based on the meaning of the word, only that governance that is consistent with God's directions can be considered appointed by God.

In 1 Corinthians 16:15, scripture says, "...and that they have devoted themselves to ministry...." The word translated "devoted themselves" is the Greek term that means appoint. This version of the root word seems to indicate they told themselves what to do and then complied rather than receiving direction from someone else. But in any even, the word still carries with it, even in this form, the idea of entering an arrangement and the result is said to be appointed.

So in every usage an arrangement between people is in view. So rather than the vast majority, we are talking about 100% of the time!

 

But you have never responded to my point in #81 (and elsewhere) that the omnipotence and omniscience of God from eternity past makes your claim of God "choosing" people only after they are alive meaningless.


First I have responded to this by pointing out this simply is a tool to rewrite scripture. Scripture says God chose you for salvation through sanctification and faith. We are chosen after we live without mercy. No charge can be brought against us once we are chosen for salvation.
You say all this is meaningless because scripture does not mean what it says. I say it does. My authority is scripture alone and not the clever stories of men used to make scripture to no effect, i.e. meaningless.

Here is a parting thought for you. You probably believe in Unconditional Election. Now according to your argument, quoted above, that doctrine is rendered meaningless because of God's total Omniscience. For if God can make choices without reliance on His Omniscience, as He would have to do to make unconditional elections, disregarding His perfect knowledge of the future before He made the election, then God can make conditional elections during our lifetime using the same capability.

Goodbye and God Bless

Van

 

Loose Ends

I wanted to address so of the assertions contained in this post.

(1) God cannot elect someone for some purpose without also electing them for salvation. God chose Judas to be His betrayer but that election did not include salvation. It was for another purpose. Therefore the premise that when God chooses someone from the womb for a purpose, it must also include being chosen for salvation is without merit. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God chooses individuals for salvation through (or by means of) faith. Paul did not have faith in Christ until he was knocked off his horse.

(2) Did I use the election of Paul to demonstrate election for salvation during our lifetime? Nope. I used 2 Thessalonians 2:13, James 2:5, 1 Corinthians 1:26-30, 1 Peter 2:9-10, Romans 8:33. I used the examples of from the womb elections to show elections during time, bolstering the idea that our election for salvation occurs also during time.

(3) Does Romans 8:33 allow God to bring charges against God's elect, nullifying the verse? No, the whole idea is the elect are justified by God, and therefore whatever wrong might be applied to us is null and void because God whose power overrides everything else has justified us. God is not a God of confusion, He is not for us and then against us. Therefore when Paul was chosen for salvation he (1) had lived without mercy and (2) his faith had been credited as righteousness. This precludes his election from the womb being for salvation.

(4) Did God plan for David to be a murderer? Of course not.
Recall the command, thou shall not murder? David was a sinner by his own volition, as are we all.

In summary, according to my (Van's) understanding of scripture, God only chooses individuals for salvation after they have lived without mercy and after He credits their faith in Christ as righteousness. Nothing has been put forward to say this is not what scripture actually says. What has been put forward is scripture does not mean what it says. Difficult to respond to that absurdity.

Finally, it is repeated said by everyone who disagrees with me that I advocate Open Theism. All these assertion are false, made by people who have read my posts where I shred Open Theism and show it is unbiblical.

Can God know the future exhaustively? Of course. He declares the end from the beginning so if He foreordained everything, He would know the future exhaustively.

In Orthodox Christian understanding, God knows everything about the future, and has known everything that will ever happen for eternity. Yes, that is not only the orthodox view, but the only view allowed to be expressed on this forum.

Since scripture says if they perhaps might grope for me, scripture does not mesh with the claim everything is set in stone.

This means that who will sin, who will be murdered, who will accept Christ, and who God will "choose" and when, has all been set in stone for eternity past. This, to the best of my understanding is the Orthodox Christian view and has been for the last two thousand years or so.

This is not the orthodox view, this is hyper-Calvinism and makes God the author of sin. The Orthodox view is God either causes or allows all things, and He allows mankind to choose to sin but does not compel him to sin, thus He is not the author of sin.

Does someone hear the gospel without someone preaching it? Is not the gospel the power of God for salvation. No one comes to Jesus unless drawn by the Father. But they not only have to hear and understand the gospel, they have to learn from the Father and put their trust in Christ.

 

Reply to Absurdity

Scripture teaches that God crediting our faith as righteousness results in election for salvation, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 Strike One!

Scripture teaches when God puts us "in Christ" we are made alive together with Christ. Thus not "in Christ" dead in our sins, but in Christ alive in God's kingdom. Strike two!

Being spiritually dead means we are separated from God, a condition we are conceived in. Calvinism redefines the term to mean unable to understand the gospel and respond affirmatively to it. This is false doctrine as can be see in Matthew 23:13 where "spiritually dead" men are "entering heaven" so they have responded sufficiently to enter heaven, yet are blocked by false teaching. Matthew 13:1-30 also shows that three of the four soils can hear and understand and respond to the gospel. And they were all "spiritually" dead, unsaved, unregenerated and not yet "in Christ." Strike three!

The concept of election is the concept that God chooses people for His purpose. He can choose them individually before creation as a foreseen individual or choose them corporately as the target group of His redemption plan. He can chose them from the beginning, i.e. after creation from the womb, such as Paul, or after they have trusted in God, such as the apostles and everyone God causes to be born anew.

Because many passages clearly teach God chooses individuals during their life, after they have lived without mercy and based on their faith in the truth, i.e. 1 Peter 2:9-10; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, the election of Ephesians 1:4 must be corporate.