The conflicted Calvinist

[Monster]

It seems like most of this argument comes down to the measure of God's sovereignty or better put, the immeasurable infinitude of His sovereignty and how we fit inside of it.

I believe that we're fooling ourselves if we think we have the means to fully develop or even understand that equation. I also think that Winman (assuming I understand his stance) is doing a good job of making that point.

Again, assuming I understand the main objective of the OP, the same point was well made. We can't wrap our intellect around the infinite, and I humbly praise God for that. I love having limits, they make items/issues of faith that much easier to pursue.

Succinctly put, we be very-very small and God is very-immeasurably-very big.

Or, maybe I'm so far out in some field on all of this (certainly not left) that I may as well be in another conversation entirely.

 

[Winman]

It seems like most of this argument comes down to the measure of God's sovereignty or better put, the immeasurable infinitude of His sovereignty and how we fit inside of it.

I believe that we're fooling ourselves if we think we have the means to fully develop or even understand that equation. I also think that Winman (assuming I understand his stance) is doing a good job of making that point.

Again, assuming I understand the main objective of the OP, the same point was well made. We can't wrap our intellect around the infinite, and I humbly praise God for that. I love having limits, they make items/issues of faith that much easier to pursue.

Succinctly put, we be very-very small and God is very-immeasurably-very big.

Or, maybe I'm so far out in some field on all of this (certainly not left) that I may as well be in another conversation entirely.

The word "sovereign" does not mean total control. It means the head or chief of a state or nation, kingdom, government, such as a king.

From the dictionary;

Sovereign

n

1. One that exercises supreme, permanent authority, especially in a nation or other governmental unit, as:
a. A king, queen, or other noble person who serves as chief of state; a ruler or monarch.

Sovereign has never meant that a person is in absolute control of every event that happens. It means the supreme leader of a country or kingdom.

God is sovereign, and no one can take that away from him. But men absolutely disobey God's will millions of times daily. Jesus told us to pray that God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Why would we be told to pray that God's will be done on earth if it is already happening?

So, Calvinism once again redefines a word, and then builds a false doctrine around it.

 

[saturneptune]

It seems like most of this argument comes down to the measure of God's sovereignty or better put, the immeasurable infinitude of His sovereignty and how we fit inside of it.

I believe that we're fooling ourselves if we think we have the means to fully develop or even understand that equation. I also think that Winman (assuming I understand his stance) is doing a good job of making that point.

Again, assuming I understand the main objective of the OP, the same point was well made. We can't wrap our intellect around the infinite, and I humbly praise God for that. I love having limits, they make items/issues of faith that much easier to pursue.

Succinctly put, we be very-very small and God is very-immeasurably-very big.

Or, maybe I'm so far out in some field on all of this (certainly not left) that I may as well be in another conversation entirely.

No, you are probably closer to the truth you speak of than all the Calvin-free will threads on the board. We cannot wrap our mind around the infinite. We know that God is totally sovereign, and we also know there is an element of free will within certain parameters. How that mixes together we do not know, and another one million BB threads will not answer the question.

 

[HisWitness]

I just wanted to make sure that I was correct in saying that you believe God created evil. Luke told you it is really not a creation, but an absence of good or God.

Another point is, that evil as used in Isa 45 is never equated with sin. God is not the author of sin. Here is a good explanation of the root words in that verse.

Did God Create Evil?

I have been of the opinion that God did not create sin, evil, suffering, or disease. So when I recently became aware of a scripture that says God created “evil”, I decided to do a little digging on that subject. Here is the verse:

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

God formed the sun, moon, and the stars to give us illumination. Darkness is the absence of light. So we see both extremes—light and darkness.

Then we see the next contrasting segment in the verse—peace and evil.

Before I share what I found on the word “evil” let me point out another interesting comparison of the words “form”, “make” and “create”. The Hebrew for these words are all different:

Strong #H3335—form
yaw-tsar'
probably identical with H3334 (through the squeezing into shape); (compare H3331); to mould into a form; especially as a potter; figuratively to determine (that is, form a resolution): - X earthen, fashion, form, frame, make (-r), potter, purpose.

Strong #H6213—make
aw-saw'
A primitive root; to do or make, in the broadest sense and widest application: - accomplish, advance, appoint, apt, be at, become, bear, bestow, bring forth, bruise, be busy, X certainly, have the charge of, commit, deal (with), deck, + displease, do, (ready) dress (-ed), (put in) execute (-ion), exercise, fashion, + feast, [fight-] ing man, + finish, fit, fly, follow, fulfil, furnish, gather, get, go about, govern, grant, great, + hinder, hold ([a feast]), X indeed, + be industrious, + journey, keep, labour, maintain, make, be meet, observe, be occupied, offer, + officer, pare, bring (come) to pass, perform, practise, prepare, procure, provide, put, requite, X sacrifice, serve, set, shew, X sin, spend, X surely, take, X thoroughly, trim, X very, + vex, be [warr-] ior, work (-man), yield, use.

Strong #H1254
bârâ'
baw-raw'
A primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes): - choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).

I must admit that the Hebrew meanings were a bit difficult for me to really grasp, so I put them in here for your own understanding.

But the most significant thing that I learned was that “evil” is never rendered as “sin”. Also that it is based on God’s law of “sowing and reaping”. This law also has two sides or extremes—good and evil.

Here is the key note from my Dake Bible:

4. I create evil. The Hebrew word for "create" is bara' (HSN-<H1254>) and here it means to bring about; bring into existence. The Hebrew word for "evil" is ra` (HSN-<H7451>). It is never rendered "sin," but "evil" (Isa. 45:7; Gen. 2:9,17; 3:5,22); "calamity" (Ps. 141:5); "adversity" (1Sam. 10:19; Ps. 94:13; Eccl. 7:14); "grievous" (Prov. 15:10); "sorrow" (Gen. 44:29); "trouble" (Ps. 27:5; 41:1; 107:26); "distress" (Neh. 2:17); "bad" (Gen. 24:50; 31:24; Lev. 27:10-14); "affliction" (2Chr. 20:9; Zech. 1:15); "misery" (Eccl. 8:6); "sore" (Dt. 6:22); "noisome" (Ezek. 14:15,21); "hurt" (Gen. 26:29); and "wretchedness" (Num. 11:15). The idea is that God has made the law of sowing and reaping, and evil results will come when men sin. God has decreed that misery, wretchedness, sorrow, trouble, and distress will come as a result of sin (Gal. 6:7-8). Ra` (HSN-<H7451>) is translated "evil" 442 Times and never with the idea that sin is created by God. If people sin and reap for it, the responsibility for both is theirs. God simply made the law and penalties for breaking the law which will always be in force.
—Dake's Study Notes

I hope you find this helpful and enlightening—I sure did.

So I was right about sin, sickness and disease. Because evil is part of sowing and reaping, if a person sows sin he will reap evil.

The use of the word evil is a contrast, yet, as most who want to confuse Scripture, or make it confusing for a new believer, they like to take the words and misuse them.

God is the Creator of the Universe and whatever else there is out there. He is a Holy God, and He makes the rules. We are created beings. It is not our job to paint a picture of the Lord to diminish His holiness or majesty.

i never said sin had anything to do with God creating evil i just quoted the verse that said God created evil and darkness . beacuse of another post that said that evil and darkness did not have a creator.

 

[Van]

God is infinite so any sort of nonsense can be defended by saying God's ways are way above our own. This argument is nonsense.

If someone says we cannot understand God and walks away, that, although wrong, makes sense. However, to say we cannot understand God, therefore this view of God that makes no sense, must be right, is simply twaddle.

And we have 13 pages of it.

1. Exhaustive determinism is unbiblical, the bible says things happen by chance.

2. The Bible tells us to count the cost, not to buy a pig in a poke.

3. Calvinism requires believing God predestines all things, yet is not the author of sin. Pure twaddle.

 

[Monster]

No, you are probably closer to the truth you speak of than all the Calvin-free will threads on the board. We cannot wrap our mind around the infinite. We know that God is totally sovereign, and we also know there is an element of free will within certain parameters. How that mixes together we do not know, and another one million BB threads will not answer the question.

Thanks!

Interestingly enough though, I would definitely not classify myself as a Calvinist (certainly not a five pointer by any far stretch). I'm not an Armenian either. I guess I'm one of those "free radical" oddities that float somewhere in-between or more likely outside.

I have seen very interesting and sometimes convincing arguments (Biblical and otherwise) from both camps, however.

 

[HisWitness]

i never said sin had anything to do with God creating evil i just quoted the verse that said God created evil and darkness . beacuse of another post that said that evil and darkness did not have a creator.

let me ask a question now--did not God create man out of the dust ?

and all that man was God put in him--meaning the functions he hador the 5 senses? the thinking?

 

[saturneptune]

let me ask a question now--did not God create man out of the dust ?

and all that man was God put in him--meaning the functions he hador the 5 senses? the thinking?

Yes, God created man out of the dust, and all bodily functions that come with him. I must admit the thinking part is more or less from person to person. So before God created anything, was there darkenss?

 

[HisWitness]

let me ask a question now--did not God create man out of the dust ?

and all that man was God put in him--meaning the functions he hador the 5 senses? the thinking?

you will have to say yes or be very wrong according to scriptures.Now there is odedience and disobedience--where did those 2 laws come from??

they came from God of course,now where did the effects from these 2 laws come from(meaning Sin and Righteousness) they came from God also??

God is the one who sets the boundaries,the Laws,the effects,and it all comes from him !!! God did create Sin also--but God never tempted anyone to sin or caused anyone to Sin.God created Sin but man brought forth Sin into the world by his disobedience

 

[Monster]

The word "sovereign" does not mean total control. It means the head or chief of a state or nation, kingdom, government, such as a king.

From the dictionary;



Sovereign has never meant that a person is in absolute control of every event that happens. It means the supreme leader of a country or kingdom.

God is sovereign, and no one can take that away from him. But men absolutely disobey God's will millions of times daily. Jesus told us to pray that God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Why would we be told to pray that God's will be done on earth if it is already happening?

So, Calvinism once again redefines a word, and then builds a false doctrine around it.

I wasn't disagreeing with you actually. I think you make very salient points and I think you do so with a clear language and good attitude.

I guess we could quibble about the exact definitions and my understanding of the word sovereignty but if what I said is understood as "God is bigger than us, period" then there you have it.

The why would we pray about God's will question; I believe and I believe the Bible makes it clear that God is so big, that He is able to grant us absolute free will according to our absolute understanding of it within His absolute will. He's just bigger. He has to be or we may as well worship a Gummy Bear or toothpick, a nail clipping, or you name it.

Again though, I generally agree with you on most points here and if that doesn't work quite right, I still like you :love2:

 

[HisWitness]

The word "sovereign" does not mean total control. It means the head or chief of a state or nation, kingdom, government, such as a king.

From the dictionary;



Sovereign has never meant that a person is in absolute control of every event that happens. It means the supreme leader of a country or kingdom.

God is sovereign, and no one can take that away from him. But men absolutely disobey God's will millions of times daily. Jesus told us to pray that God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Why would we be told to pray that God's will be done on earth if it is already happening?

So, Calvinism once again redefines a word, and then builds a false doctrine around it.

Winman im sorry to say that you have made God as a man and has belittled him in a great way by doing so--whether you like it or not He is God and has FULL control over HIS CREATION in every way,shape,and form

 

[Winman]

Winman im sorry to say that you have made God as a man and has belittled him in a great way by doing so--whether you like it or not He is God and has FULL control over HIS CREATION in every way,shape,and form

First, PLEASE lay off the smiley face. Unless you like to annoy folks.

Second, I have done no such thing. The word "Sovereign" has never meant total control. It means the leader or head of a nation or government like a king. Many countries have had kings, but they did not absolutely control their subjects. God is the King of the Universe, but he does not control our every move. Otherwise you must believe that God wants us to commit sins that he has forbidden. God is not crazy, he does not go around telling people not to kill, and then cause persons to murder other persons. He does not tell us not to steal, and then cause us to steal.

Yes, God does ALLOW us to sin for a season, but in the end he will judge all men for their works. Every knee will bow to him.

But God is not causing people to sin, the scriptures say God does not tempt any man to sin, much less cause him to sin.

 

[Winman]

I wasn't disagreeing with you actually. I think you make very salient points and I think you do so with a clear language and good attitude.

I guess we could quibble about the exact definitions and my understanding of the word sovereignty but if what I said is understood as "God is bigger than us, period" then there you have it.

The why would we pray about God's will question; I believe and I believe the Bible makes it clear that God is so big, that He is able to grant us absolute free will according to our absolute understanding of it within His absolute will. He's just bigger. He has to be or we may as well worship a Gummy Bear or toothpick, a nail clipping, or you name it.

Again though, I generally agree with you on most points here and if that doesn't work quite right, I still like you :love2:

I wasn't disagreeing with you either. :thumbsup:

I appreciate the compliment, I try to write logical arguments.

Yes, it is difficult to understand how we can have free will, and yet God brings all his purposes to pass.

I have always thought the best analogy is a chess game. A master player absolutely controls the game, and to a great degree exactly where his opponent will move. At the same time, his opponent is truly making his own choices within the options provided him. His opponent may make a wise move, or a foolish move, but the move is his.

Nevertheless, a master player will always win the game in the end.

Checkmate!

 

[HisWitness]

First, PLEASE lay off the smiley face. Unless you like to annoy folks.

Second, I have done no such thing. The word "Sovereign" has never meant total control. It means the leader or head of a nation or government like a king. Many countries have had kings, but they did not absolutely control their subjects. God is the King of the Universe, but he does not control our every move. Otherwise you must believe that God wants us to commit sins that he has forbidden. God is not crazy, he does not go around telling people not to kill, and then cause persons to murder other persons. He does not tell us not to steal, and then cause us to steal.

Yes, God does ALLOW us to sin for a season, but in the end he will judge all men for their works. Every knee will bow to him.

But God is not causing people to sin, the scriptures say God does not tempt any man to sin, much less cause him to sin.

ok what you have stated here is true---also remember God is the Potter and we are the clay--he forms and makes as he chooses--one to Honor and one to Dishonor

And about them smilely faces if we met in person on serveral occasions and i had a big smile on my face everytime--would you tell me to wipe that smile off my face because i was happy??? i think not

on a side note--when you use the Sov word,you must understand that it has a different meaning upon a man than it does upon God--Man is limited and weak--so therefore he cannot rule his throne or kingdom on this earth with supreme power-thats why there is always someone to replace him.

God is ALL power and Eternal and he never needs to be replaced or can he be overthrown--and he rules and regulates his creation perfectly

 

[HisWitness]

I wasn't disagreeing with you either. :thumbsup:

I appreciate the compliment, I try to write logical arguments.

Yes, it is difficult to understand how we can have free will, and yet God brings all his purposes to pass.

I have always thought the best analogy is a chess game. A master player absolutely controls the game, and to a great degree exactly where his opponent will move. At the same time, his opponent is truly making his own choices within the options provided him. His opponent may make a wise move, or a foolish move, but the move is his.

Nevertheless, a master player will always win the game in the end.

Checkmate!

free will--yes and no.

Man will always choose to do wickedness if left to his own self(yes he chooses this of his own)

Man will NEVER choose God without the working and DRAWING of the Holy Spirit in his life(so no in this sense)

BTW the word Draw in the Greek means to be DRAGGED by the spirit

 

[Winman]

ok what you have stated here is true---also remember God is the Potter and we are the clay--he forms and makes as he chooses--one to Honor and one to Dishonor

When God told the potter story, this is so men could understand. God and Jesus often used common everyday things to teach a spiritual truth.

Let me ask you a question. Why did a potter shape clay in the ancient world?

It was to make a living wasn't it? Do you think a potter wanted to make a profit and make the most money he could with the supplies he had? Yes, of course he did, just as modern businessmen do today.

The point is, no potter would intentionally make an inferior piece of pottery. No potter wants to have to smash a defective piece of pottery and start over, that is a waste of time and money.

No, a potter wants every piece to come out as perfect and useful as possible, this ensures the greatest profit.

But if a piece has a defect, he might reshape it to be an inferior object. The same with men. With Moses who was obedient he made a great leader. With Pharaoh who was rebellious he made an example for the whole world to see. God did not desire Pharaoh to be a rebel, but he knew his heart and knew he would be. He knew how obstinate Pharaoh would be. And so God used Pharoah to demonstrate his power. But God did not cause Pharaoh to be a rebellious sinner, God never tempts any man to sin.

And about them smilely faces if we met in person on serveral occasions and i had a big smile on my face everytime--would you tell me to wipe that smile off my face because i was happy??? i think not

Actually, if a person has a huge smile on their face every time you meet them, that might be a bit scary.

Folks simply don't believe it when you put a smiley face after every line you write. It is like folks who call you a heretic, and then end every post with the words "Bless you" or "blessings". We have one poster here who does that. I hardly believe he really means it. Folks do not like a fake.

on a side note--when you use the Sov word,you must understand that it has a different meaning upon a man than it does upon God--Man is limited and weak--so therefore he cannot rule his throne or kingdom on this earth with supreme power-thats why there is always someone to replace him.

God is ALL power and Eternal and he never needs to be replaced or can he be overthrown--and he rules and regulates his creation perfectly

Sovereign has been redefined by Calvinists. It never meant someone who is in absolute control of every event that happens, it simply means a leader or head of a state or government like a king. And God indeed is a King, and Jesus is the King of Kings. God is sovereign, but that does not mean he controls every little thing that happens.

Why would commandments even be necessary if God is doing everything for us? Does that make sense to you?

I don't think you are really giving this serious thought or you would see how nonsensical this view is.

If God is controlling every little event, then no one is sinning, because everyone is doing exactly what God has willed them to do. If you murder or steal, you are doing exactly what God ordained you to do. How can it be a sin if you are doing what God wants you to do?

Do you see how ridiculous this view is? Think about it awhile.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I wasn't disagreeing with you either. :thumbsup:

I appreciate the compliment, I try to write logical arguments.

Yes, it is difficult to understand how we can have free will, and yet God brings all his purposes to pass.

I have always thought the best analogy is a chess game. A master player absolutely controls the game, and to a great degree exactly where his opponent will move. At the same time, his opponent is truly making his own choices within the options provided him. His opponent may make a wise move, or a foolish move, but the move is his.

Nevertheless, a master player will always win the game in the end.

Checkmate!

LOL.... Yes the USA used that strategy & game with the Chinese & Vietcong. Personally I prefer guerrilla warfare. Try mastering the game of GO.

 

[HisWitness]

When God told the potter story, this is so men could understand. God and Jesus often used common everyday things to teach a spiritual truth.

Let me ask you a question. Why did a potter shape clay in the ancient world?

It was to make a living wasn't it? Do you think a potter wanted to make a profit and make the most money he could with the supplies he had? Yes, of course he did, just as modern businessmen do today.

The point is, no potter would intentionally make an inferior piece of pottery. No potter wants to have to smash a defective piece of pottery and start over, that is a waste of time and money.

No, a potter wants every piece to come out as perfect and useful as possible, this ensures the greatest profit.

But if a piece has a defect, he might reshape it to be an inferior object. The same with men. With Moses who was obedient he made a great leader. With Pharaoh who was rebellious he made an example for the whole world to see. God did not desire Pharaoh to be a rebel, but he knew his heart and knew he would be. He knew how obstinate Pharaoh would be. And so God used Pharoah to demonstrate his power. But God did not cause Pharaoh to be a rebellious sinner, God never tempts any man to sin.



Actually, if a person has a huge smile on their face every time you meet them, that might be a bit scary.

Folks simply don't believe it when you put a smiley face after every line you write. It is like folks who call you a heretic, and then end every post with the words "Bless you" or "blessings". We have one poster here who does that. I hardly believe he really means it. Folks do not like a fake.



Sovereign has been redefined by Calvinists. It never meant someone who is in absolute control of every event that happens, it simply means a leader or head of a state or government like a king. And God indeed is a King, and Jesus is the King of Kings. God is sovereign, but that does not mean he controls every little thing that happens.

Why would commandments even be necessary if God is doing everything for us? Does that make sense to you?

I don't think you are really giving this serious thought or you would see how nonsensical this view is.

If God is controlling every little event, then no one is sinning, because everyone is doing exactly what God has willed them to do. If you murder or steal, you are doing exactly what God ordained you to do. How can it be a sin if you are doing what God wants you to do?

Do you see how ridiculous this view is? Think about it awhile.

well i will agree on this one point with you.

God never has nor ever will tempt or cause mankind to sin--it is against the very nature of God to do so--but outside of this principle God Controls and Rules everything according to his own will and purpose.

 

[Winman]

well i will agree on this one point with you.

God never has nor ever will tempt or cause mankind to sin--it is against the very nature of God to do so--but outside of this principle God Controls and Rules everything according to his own will and purpose.

Well, it depends on what you mean by control. Did Jonah try to flee from God on a ship? Yes. Did God cause a great storm so that the sailors would throw him overboard, and prepare a whale to swallow him? Yes.

So, God absolutely made sure that Jonah went to Nineveh and preached. Nevertheless, Jonah gave God a hard time and was very rebellious. He did not go when he was first told and fled on a boat. And even after God had the whale swallow him and spit him up, Jonah was angry and complained the whole time. He was more concerned with a gourd than the many people who lived in Nineveh.

So, we see Jonah acting on his own in rebellion to God, yet God made sure he went to Nineveh and preached. So, we see the free will of man, and God bringing his purpose to pass at the same time.

But it sure would have been easier if Jonah had listened the first time. :thumbsup:

 

[HisWitness]

If you were a sinner and truly enslaved to sin as you teach, you could not possibly return the wallet. You must obey your nature and keep the wallet.

Even Calvinists recognize this weakness in their doctrine, and so argue men are not as bad as they could possibly be. But this is a contradiction and shows men are not enslaved to sin and have the ability to do good.

The scriptures clearly say men can do good.

Luk 6:33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

Jesus knows proper doctrine and what "good" is, and he said sinners do good.

God's commandments and punishment would be nonsensical unless men have the ability to obey them.

The scriptures do not teach that we sin because we are a servant of sin, they teach that when we sin we become the servant of sin.

Jhn 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

When you commit sin, you "sell" yourself to sin like a slave in the ancient markets. You now belong to sin, and the payment for sin is death. It does not mean you are compelled to sin. This is a great misunderstanding.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Again, this is the mistake folks make, the scriptures do not teach we are compelled to sin, but they do teach when we sin we are sold to sin like a servant and belong to it. When you trust Christ you die to sin and no longer belong to it, just as a wife no longer belongs to her husband if he dies. This is what the scriptures mean by being a servant of sin.

in the case of a religeous sinner--he returns the wallet that he might be made known as a righteous man in the eyes of the people--for he loves the glory of man.