The Corporate View of Election

[Van]

When God choose His Redeemer, His Lamb, before the foundation of the world, He also chose corporately those who would be redeemed. Hence, everyone was corporately elected before the foundation of the world. So the issue is, were we also chosen individually before the foundation of the world. Calvinists say yes, and nullify 2 Thessalonians 2:13 which says we are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth from the beginning or after creation.

Some Arminians believe in corporate election by God but avoid discussing how we become "incorporated into Christ." I have asked the question my times and each and every Arminian as declined to answer. Not much of a defense!

 

[Iconoclast]

I'm talking about the very philosophy you employ yet ironically (or iconoclastically) condemn.

...and really...how can you understand deep systematic theology when an elementary, trivial duty like using the quote feature properly escapes you? Its irritating having to go back and edit it correctly.

Sometimes to communicate regular ideas takes words,sentences and questions.
Any philosophy I use will come from a biblical base...not from secular philosophy, debate rules, tactics. I have explained it before but you are not looking for an answer ...just to attack...I understand:wavey:

trivial duty like using the quote feature properly escapes you? Its irritating having to go back and edit it correctly

I never learned to type correctly,so shoot me.:laugh:

Do not sweat the small stuff, you are now looking as if you are misunderstanding romans 1 as well as Romans 5. Romans is not a good book for you webdog.:thumbsup:

A cal (me) might also point out that even in the OT, where Israel is clearly the "elect" people of God...there were many other "non-elect" nations who were not given the revelation of God. Did God not give those foreign peoples an opportunity to believe in the true God and become the elect? The above bolded is absolutely wrong per Romans 1 and the fact ANY nation could serve the God of Israel and become a proselyte. Any Gentile could be grafted in via faith.

Not only is that a wrong idea about Romans 1[Paul is showing why all are condemned]....the fact that God confounded the languages at the tower of Babel indicates he was not intending to save many at that time.


AMYG

But that was on an individual basis. According to Skan they must elected "corporately".

Correct again....God elects individuals;
Out of national Israel [an elect remnant]
Out of the world now [all Jesus intended to save]

 

[HeirofSalvation]

HOS,

I don't think you'll find any Calvinists who says election is not often Corporate in the Bible (Israel & Church, etc). They (we) would also say that it is ALSO individual. Skan might say this too, but that individual election is based on a person's individual faith (he can corrrect me if I'm wrong).

A cal (me) might also point out that even in the OT, where Israel is clearly the "elect" people of God...there were many other "non-elect" nations who were not given the revelation of God. Did God not give those foreign peoples an opportunity to believe in the true God and become the elect?

Thank you 12 strings :thumbsup:... for your imput...I am hoping to learn a lot on this thread. :wavey:

 

[Skandelon]

But that was on an individual basis. According to Skan they must elected "corporately". :laugh:

Such comments are only revealing your lack of understanding, Amy. It would be a much better reflection on you to seek to understand this perspective rather than belittle it out of ignorance. After all, this is the view of Hershel Hobbs, Adrian Rodgers and the authors of the Baptist Faith and Message, the statement of faith adopted by the largest protestant denomination in the world. I think it probably deserves a bit more respect than you seem willing to give it.

 

[12strings]

The above bolded is absolutely wrong per Romans 1 and the fact ANY nation could serve the God of Israel and become a proselyte. Any Gentile could be grafted in via faith.

They "COULD" become a proselyte, but this doesnt' mean every gentile even knew that the Jewish God was the true God. Just like to day, some never hear about Christ. Sounds like God has "elected" that they remain in ignorance.

 

[Yeshua1]

They "COULD" become a proselyte, but this doesnt' mean every gentile even knew that the Jewish God was the true God. Just like to day, some never hear about Christ. Sounds like God has "elected" that they remain in ignorance.

The point is that God ONLY had a Covenant relationship with isreal among ALL nations on earth, and that His corporate election was towards them, but still had to be an individual election, as not ALL isreal was included in TRUE Isreal!

Spiritual jews were those who were saved out by grace of god, while rest were not part of the Covenant!

 

[Yeshua1]

Such comments are only revealing your lack of understanding, Amy. It would be a much better reflection on you to seek to understand this perspective rather than belittle it out of ignorance. After all, this is the view of Hershel Hobbs, Adrian Rodgers and the authors of the Baptist Faith and Message, the statement of faith adopted by the largest protestant denomination in the world. I think it probably deserves a bit more respect than you seem willing to give it.

Interesting how you are so willing to accept at face value that document, yet would not accept the other confessions of the faith thru the years, as those were cal!

regardless of ANY document/confession/creeed, its what the BIBLE teaches, and the taching is that the Lord ALWAYS saved persons on an individual elective basis!

Did jesus die to atone for the sins of people, or for the coporate plan?

 

[webdog]

They "COULD" become a proselyte, but this doesnt' mean every gentile even knew that the Jewish God was the true God. Just like to day, some never hear about Christ. Sounds like God has "elected" that they remain in ignorance.

Rather He "allowed" them to remain in ignorance regardless of the truths they had and exchanged for a lie. If He elected them to remain in ignorance, He is the direct cause of their disobedience to which He commands. A house divided cannot stand.

 

[12strings]

Rather He "allowed" them to remain in ignorance regardless of the truths they had and exchanged for a lie. If He elected them to remain in ignorance, He is the direct cause of their disobedience to which He commands. A house divided cannot stand.

But the question is why did he not "ALLOW" all men to remain in ignorance...why did he not allow the Israelites also to remain in ignorance? Was it purely in response to their faith?

 

[webdog]

But the question is why did he not "ALLOW" all men to remain in ignorance...why did he not allow the Israelites also to remain in ignorance? Was it purely in response to their faith?

The very thing your side denies...free agency of the individual.

 

[Yeshua1]

The very thing your side denies...free agency of the individual.

Guess it hinges on how one defines "free will", as my bible states that a sinner cannot even seek after the Lord unless God intervenes first to assist him!

 

[webdog]

Guess it hinges on how one defines "free will", as my bible states that a sinner cannot even seek after the Lord unless God intervenes first to assist him!

I Didn't even use the term free will. I said free agency, that being two tangible choices exist and the agent is free to choose. Acts 17:26-27 tells us how the "assisting" happens and to whom.