Were you saved by grace alone, thru faith alone, or was not the Cross sufficient to save you itself?
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The Council of Trent and its support of paganism.
- Thread starter Hobie
- Start date
Why would you ask me that - when we were discussing Scripture and Tradition??
Besides - I already answered that question for you in another thread this morning.
As a Sola Scripturist - would you mind showing me where the BIBLE says that we're saved by faith "alone"??
Chapter and Verse, please . . .
If you can show me where we still need purgatory if saved by grace of God already!
You're jumping ahead.
YOU brought up "faith alone" so the onus is on YOU to prove it.
I will present proof for Purgatory when we get passed Sola Fide . . .
Acts 16:30-31 NONE of that other stuff rome teaches must be present to be saved was there!
Sigh...you didnt give me scriptural evidence. You posted scripture and made a claim about it and gave no support. What is the context that comes from the surrounding verses? How do you know that the verses you posted actually say what you are claiming?
With regard to 2Th 2:15: "So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter."
1. Who is the "us"?
2. What is the context of the word "traditions"?
3. How does that verse, its context, and word usage apply to us today?
Now I am trying to teach you something here so you don't make the same mistakes in the future. This is very basic. If you can answer these questions correctly it will prove difficult to continue with your current insistence on your presupposition.
Its easy to sit in classes and learn proof texts and spout them as evidence. That is working from the cheap seats. It is another thing entirely to understand the passage as a whole and be able to properly apply it.
Acts 16:30-31
He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
And here is the BIBLICAL definition of what it means to "believe" in Christ:
- Being baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Rom. 6:1-11, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21)
- Picking up our cross daily to follow him (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23)
- Works of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46, Luke 18:22)
- Obeying his commandments (John 14:15, 15:10)
- Doing the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21, James 1:22)
- Suffering with Christ (Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1-2)
Remember - even the DEMONS "believe" in Christ (James 2:19) . . .
1) The "us" are the leaders of the Church, the Bishops, presbyters, etc.
This can be corroborated by Early Church documents like 1st century Bishop, Ignatius of Antioch's Letter to the Smyrnaeans:
Ignatius of Antioch
Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church.
(Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110])
2) The context of "Traditions" are the ORAL statements/teachings from them.
This is CLEARLY what Paul is talking about in this passage (2 Thess. 2:15).
3) As I already told you - this verse STILL applies to us today because there is NO list of Traditions in that passage, NOR is there an expiration date. Christ told His inner circle that WHATEVER THEY bound or loosed on earth would be bound and loosed in Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 20:21-23). He told THEM that the Holy Spirit would guide them to ALL truth (John 16:12-15).
Now - enough dancing around the issue.
If you can't prove me wrong - simply admit it and move along.
Otherwise prove me wrong . . .
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First, show me how that quote from ignatius us specifically addressing 2 Thess 2:15. Second, You once again make a claim with no evidence. You claim that the "us" is speaking of church leaders but have offered no proof, from scripture. No context to show it is talking about church leaders. Paul who wrote this was not a church leader. He was an Apostle who was not a specific leader in any specific church.
Again another claim without any evidence. How do you know what the "traditions" were that Paul (who was not a church leader) was talking about.
I am looking for context from the 2 Thess 2 passage. Can you provide an understanding of it? So far not so much.
You want me to prove you wrong on something you have not proven right yet therefore you want to hold me to a higher standard than you hold yourself to.
Your attempt so far is sophomoric at best. You are quoting everything else but direct from this passage. Now, are you going to come down from the cheap seats and get it done or are you going to keep up these failed attempts.
If you're not equipped to discuss this - simply admit it and move on.
I have stated my case and have supported it with further Scripture (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 20:21-23). For whatever reason, you keep dodging the issue.
As for Paul NOT being a leader in the Early Church - you are mistaken. He founded several churches in Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, Laodicea, Colossae, to name a few. He also built up the Church at Rome along with Peter as his final and perhaps "greatest" church, according to Irenaeus (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [inter A.D. 180-185]).
He appointed Timothy in Ephesus (1 Tim. 1:3) and Titus in Crete (Tit. 1:5) as Bishops and instructed them to ordain further Bishops and presbyters. NOT sure where you're getting the false idea that Paul was NOT a leader in the Early Church. As an Apostle - he was one of the TOP leaders. And it is to THIS that he is referring in 2 Thess 2:15, when he talks about "Us".
He uses this SAME terminology in 2 Cor. 5:18-20 when writing about the ministry of Reconciliation:
“And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given US the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to US the message of reconciliation. So WE are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through US. WE implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”
Paul is referring to the CLERGY here - the leaders of the Church and NOT the crowds.
That is the context of this passage.
In 2 Cor. 2:10, he states, “Whomever you forgive anything, so do I. For indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for you in the presence of Christ.”
In the Greek, the word “presence” in this phrase is Prosopone, which means Person. "In the PERSON of Christ" is a more correct translation. Paul was indicating that they (the leaders of the Church) were forgiving sins in the PERSON of Christ, which is translated into Latin as In Persona Christi.
This correlates perfectly with Christ's commission of the Apostles in the Upper Room on the night of his Resurrection.
In John 20:21-23, Jesus (who is God) breathes on the Apostles as he is giving them the power to forgive or retain sins:
(Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."
The fact that Jesus breathed on the Apostles when entrusted them with this ministry is highly significant because he doesn’t do this anywhere else in the New Testament. In fact, there are only two times in ALL of Scripture where God breathes on man:
The first is when he breathed life into Adam.
The second is here in John’s Gospel when he is giving them the power to forgive or retain sins.
He didn't give this power to everybody - bot only to a select few, who were the leaders of His Church.
NOW - you can continue to dodge the issue and hide your head in the sand.
Makes NO difference to me - but ALL you are doing is playing a desperate game of denial . . .
All you have done is list scripture and make a claim about it. That is not proving your case.
That is because you are looking at it through the lense of the catholic church and its unbiblical hierarchy. That was not how they were set up in the first century.
How do you know that is the context. Can you break it down from the surrounding passages and make your case? Is there a specific word in the original language that helps you understand that is the context? Is there a particular word of phrase that is in use here that is a commonly used phrase or word that would let us know that is the context?
In 2 Cor. 2:10, he states, “Whomever you forgive anything, so do I. For indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for you in the presence of Christ.”
There you go. Your first attempt to break it down and make an actual case. Its wrong, but good try. There is nothing there that shows any man at all has the authority to forgive sins on God's behalf. No man can do that. Ever.
Neither does it mention confession of sin to any man. 1 Timothy 2:5 says "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,". We do not need a mediator today. Now if you read the surrounding passages it is talking about the reconciliation of man to God. It is a reference to the gospel and Christ alone takes care of man's sin.
Ok, where was He sending them? Sending them to do what? What purpose did He breathe on them? Why did they need to receive the Holy Spirit? What was the context in which the forgiveness was to occur? How do you know what the context was?
How can you be sure that His breathing on them was to give them power to forgive? Why did they need power to forgive? there are four things going on here:
1. He gave them peace ("Peace be with you") What was the purpose of this peace?
2. He sent them somewhere? (As the Father has sent me, so I send you.") For what purpose did He send them"
3. They were given the Holy Spirit ("Receive the holy Spirit.") Why?
4. Commanded them to forgive sins. ("Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.") What was the purpose in this forgiveness and to whom would it be given?
Does it say that He was giving it to the leaders of the church? Does "leaders of the church" come up in this passage anywhere? What is an Apostle and how does their calling differ from others in the 1st century?
Now that is what I call getting right to the point.
Now, now, now. Surely you are aware that quoting a Bishop of the Holy Church is not going to impress any of our friends that pay little heed to any of the writings of those leaders from the early Church. Their rejection of such a thing is complete, because if they didn't reject it they would indeed be believers in Christian orthodox teachings and members of either the Catholic or Eastern Orthodox faith traditions.
No matter what Scripture you use to support your case that will also be rejected by our good friends because they have their own interpretation of the Holy Scriptures. Even though their interpretation did not come about for some 1500 years, they will stand by it and reject all that came before that time period.
So how did James and Jude come to be?
Romans 5:1
Ephesians 2:9
Either you're being purposely obtuse or you really don't understand Scripture. I sincerely HOPE it's the former and not the latter . . .
What do YOU think Jesus was doing in the Upper Room in John 20:21-23??
Let's break it down . . .
Verse 21: (Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."
He said "Peace be with you" because they weren't at peace. they were AFRAID. Verse 19 tells us that much.
As for "sending" them - what did the Father send the Son to do?? He sent Him to bring about the FORGIVENESS of sins and RECONCILE humanity with God. Jesus was sending them to carry out the ministry of Reconciliation (2 Cor. 5:18-20).
Verse 22: And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.
Jesus is bestowing Authority upon them by giving them the Holy spirit. As I indicated earlier - the ONLY other place in ALL of Scripture where God breathes on man is when God breathed life into Adam.
Verse 23: Whose sins YOU FORGIVE are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU RETAIN are retained."
THIS is the commission - the forgiveness of sins and the reconciliation of humanity with God.
This is precisely what Paul was talking about in and 2 Cor. 2:10.
As to whether "leaders of the Church" comes up in any of the passages - that is a WEAK argument. They are the APOSTLES - the first Bishops and leaders of the Church. Their names are written on the 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:14). Their offices are successive, as we see in Acts 1 where they gathered to select a successor for Judas.
In Acts 1:20, Peter quotes Psalm 109:8 when he says:
‘May another take his office.’
The Greek word used for "office" here is "Episkopay", which means "BISHOPRIC".
They chose a successor to Judas's office as Bishop.
So, I suggest you either stop acting like you don't know what I'm talking about - or take an intensive Bible study course and LEARN what I'm talking about . . .
Obedience, doing good works, are fruits that would give evidence of new life in Jesus, but NOT cause of that new life in him, that is faith alone!