The Council of Trent and its support of paganism.

[Yeshua1]

Either you're being purposely obtuse or you really don't understand Scripture. I sincerely HOPE it's the former and not the latter . . .

What do YOU think Jesus was doing in the Upper Room in John 20:21-23??
Let's break it down . . .

Verse 21: (Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."
He said "Peace be with you" because they weren't at peace. they were AFRAID. Verse 19 tells us that much.
As for "sending" them - what did the Father send the Son to do?? He sent Him to bring about the FORGIVENESS of sins and RECONCILE humanity with God. Jesus was sending them to carry out the ministry of Reconciliation (2 Cor. 5:18-20).

Verse 22: And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.
Jesus is bestowing Authority upon them by giving them the Holy spirit. As I indicated earlier - the ONLY other place in ALL of Scripture where God breathes on man is when God breathed life into Adam.

Verse 23: Whose sins YOU FORGIVE are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU RETAIN are retained."
THIS is the commission - the forgiveness of sins and the reconciliation of humanity with God.

This is precisely what Paul was talking about in and 2 Cor. 2:10.

As to whether "leaders of the Church" comes up in any of the passages - that is a WEAK argument. They are the APOSTLES - the first Bishops and leaders of the Church. Their names are written on the 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:14). Their offices are successive, as we see in Acts 1 where they gathered to select a successor for Judas.
In Acts 1:20, Peter quotes Psalm 109:8 when he says:
‘May another take his office.’

The Greek word used for "office" here is "Episkopay", which means "BISHOPRIC".
They chose a successor to Judas's office as Bishop.

So, I suggest you either stop acting like you don't know what I'm talking about - or take an intensive Bible study course and LEARN what I'm talking about . . .

I am just as saved as Paul or Peter or John!

 

[MarysSon]

Obedience, doing good works, are fruits that would give evidence of new life in Jesus, but NOT cause of that new life in him, that is faith alone!

And once again, faith is NOT simply "Believing".

As I pointed out - we are told in James 2:19 that even the DEMONS believe in the truths about God.
Are THEY saved?? Are THEY justified?? NO.

Faith is Belief + Obedience (Works).
In 1 Cor. 13:2, Paul says that even if you have faith that can move mountains but do not have love - it is WORTHLESS.
In Gal. 5:6, he tells his readers that ALL that matters is faith WORKING through love.
Christ told the crowds that NOT all those who call upon him will be saved - but ONLY the one who DOES the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21).

It's not faith AND/OR works.
They are part of the SAME thing - True faith.

 

[Revmitchell]

Either you're being purposely obtuse or you really don't understand Scripture. I sincerely HOPE it's the former and not the latter . . .

What do YOU think Jesus was doing in the Upper Room in John 20:21-23??
Let's break it down . . .

Verse 21: (Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."
He said "Peace be with you" because they weren't at peace. they were AFRAID. Verse 19 tells us that much.
As for "sending" them - what did the Father send the Son to do?? He sent Him to bring about the FORGIVENESS of sins and RECONCILE humanity with God. Jesus was sending them to carry out the ministry of Reconciliation (2 Cor. 5:18-20).

Verse 22: And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.
Jesus is bestowing Authority upon them by giving them the Holy spirit. As I indicated earlier - the ONLY other place in ALL of Scripture where God breathes on man is when God breathed life into Adam.

Verse 23: Whose sins YOU FORGIVE are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU RETAIN are retained."
THIS is the commission - the forgiveness of sins and the reconciliation of humanity with God.

This is precisely what Paul was talking about in and 2 Cor. 2:10.

As to whether "leaders of the Church" comes up in any of the passages - that is a WEAK argument. They are the APOSTLES - the first Bishops and leaders of the Church. Their names are written on the 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:14). Their offices are successive, as we see in Acts 1 where they gathered to select a successor for Judas.
In Acts 1:20, Peter quotes Psalm 109:8 when he says:
‘May another take his office.’

The Greek word used for "office" here is "Episkopay", which means "BISHOPRIC".
They chose a successor to Judas's office as Bishop.

So, I suggest you either stop acting like you don't know what I'm talking about - or take an intensive Bible study course and LEARN what I'm talking about . . .

Uh know I know exactly what you are talking about. I neither said I didnt nor did I imply it. I am trying to get you to take a real look at scripture instead of the susual cathie quoting of proof texts like you have been doing. Since you cannot discuss this without getting angry I will leave you to your misery.

 

[MarysSon]

I am just as saved as Paul or Peter or John!

And this has NOTHING to do with what we are talking about.
YOU don't have the power to forgive or retain sins.

 

[MarysSon]

Uh know I know exactly what you are talking about. I neither said I didnt nor did I imply it. I am trying to get you to take a real look at scripture instead of the susual cathie quoting of proof texts like you have been doing. Since you cannot discuss this without getting angry I will leave you to your misery.

TRANSLATION:
"I'm not equipped to discuss this topic."

That's what I thought . . .

 

[Yeshua1]

And once again, faith is NOT simply "Believing".

As I pointed out - we are told in James 2:19 that even the DEMONS believe in the truths about God.
Are THEY saved?? Are THEY justified?? NO.

Faith is Belief + Obedience (Works).
In 1 Cor. 13:2, Paul says that even if you have faith that can move mountains but do not have love - it is WORTHLESS.
In Gal. 5:6, he tells his readers that ALL that matters is faith WORKING through love.
Christ told the crowds that NOT all those who call upon him will be saved - but ONLY the one who DOES the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21).

It's not faith AND/OR works.
They are part of the SAME thing - True faith.

true faith will produce good works , but not part at all of getting saved!

 

[Yeshua1]

And this has NOTHING to do with what we are talking about.
YOU don't have the power to forgive or retain sins.

Neither do they, as only God can do that!

 

[Yeshua1]

TRANSLATION:
"I'm not equipped to discuss this topic."

That's what I thought . . .

he sees salvation thru the lens of scripture itself, while you see it thru the rose tinted glasses of Rome!

 

[MarysSon]

true faith will produce good works , but not part at all of getting saved!

Apparently, you don't understand what "Faith" is.
What is "Faith"??

 

[MarysSon]

Neither do they, as only God can do that!

That's NOT what Jesus said . . .

John 20:21-23
(Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."
He said "Peace be with you" because they weren't at peace. they were AFRAID. Verse 19 tells us that much.
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.
Whose sins YOU FORGIVE are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU RETAIN are retained."

 

[MarysSon]

he sees salvation thru the lens of scripture itself, while you see it thru the rose tinted glasses of Rome!

Where do the Scriptures tell us that salvation is found ONLY in the Scriptures?

We are saved by God's GRACE by the blood of Christ shed on Calvary - but ewe are saved THROUGH His Church (Matt. 16:18-19. Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 15:12-15, John 20:21-23)..

 

[Yeshua1]

Where do the Scriptures tell us that salvation is found ONLY in the Scriptures?

We are saved by God's GRACE by the blood of Christ shed on Calvary - but ewe are saved THROUGH His Church (Matt. 16:18-19. Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 15:12-15, John 20:21-23)..

That would be blasphemy , as ONLY Jesus saves us from our sins!

 

[MarysSon]

That would be blasphemy , as ONLY Jesus saves us from our sins!

Not at ALL.
I was very clear about that.

THIS is what I said - so pay attention:
"We are saved by God's GRACE by the blood of Christ shed on Calvary - but we are saved THROUGH His Church (Matt. 16:18-19. Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 15:12-15, John 20:21-23)."

 

[Yeshua1]

Not at ALL.
I was very clear about that.

THIS is what I said - so pay attention:
"We are saved by God's GRACE by the blood of Christ shed on Calvary - but we are saved THROUGH His Church (Matt. 16:18-19. Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 15:12-15, John 20:21-23)."

Peter did not say that salvation is found in any church, or sacrament, but in Jesus Himself!

 

[MarysSon]

Peter did not say that salvation is found in any church, or sacrament, but in Jesus Himself!

Ummmmm, I never mentioned Peter.
However, as long as YOU mentioned him - here is what he said about Baptism:

1 Pet. 3:21-22
his prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.

Acts 2:38
Peter [said] to them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.

 

[Hobie]

Not at ALL.
I was very clear about that.

THIS is what I said - so pay attention:
"We are saved by God's GRACE by the blood of Christ shed on Calvary - but we are saved THROUGH His Church (Matt. 16:18-19. Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 15:12-15, John 20:21-23)."

Amen!

 

[Yeshua1]

Ummmmm, I never mentioned Peter.
However, as long as YOU mentioned him - here is what he said about Baptism:

1 Pet. 3:21-22
his prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.

Acts 2:38
Peter [said] to them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.

Baptism is a type/symbol of the real basis of salvation, the person whose name was being baptized into!

 

[Yeshua1]

Amen!

I prefer the biblical view, as saved by grace alone thru faith alone!

 

[MarysSon]

Baptism is a type/symbol of the real basis of salvation, the person whose name was being baptized into!

That's NOT what the Bible says . . .

1 Pet. 3:21-22
his prefigured baptism, which SAVES you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.

Acts 2:38
Peter [said] to them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.

 

[Yeshua1]

That's NOT what the Bible says . . .

1 Pet. 3:21-22
his prefigured baptism, which SAVES you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.

Acts 2:38
Peter [said] to them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.

You know the words, but not what they mean!