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The D Chart: Part III--on doing theology with AI

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
Revelation 7:

The 144000 are identified. Then a “multitude too large to count from” all over the world, wearing white robes and worshipping God.

They are identified as “those that came out of the Great Tribulation.”

Peace to you
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
It doesn't mean it wasn't preached. He was baptized. John introduced Him as the Lamb of God. He told the Jews of the sign of Jonah.

All this before any record of any Jewish plot to put Him to death.

And Paul told the Hebrews, that as the eternal high priest, Christ had to have an offering to make on the behalf of the people, and that offering was His body.

Paul's gospel is the the Gospel, and the only Gospel that was preached from the promised seed of the Woman to now.
What I said is true. In a future post I will prove it so thoroughly that it will be impossible to doubt. You could learn it yourself if you just read the scriptures, believing what they say without any preconceived ideas and without any help from me. But now, I want to go a different direction in my posts. Having sound doctrine requires one to believe the words in their context and knowing that God has different dispensations where his operative principles of divine dealing with men changes because of the failure of men to obey and he makes transitions within those dispensations.

For instance, Jesus came into his ministry preaching "the gospel of the kingdom" to Israel only. He preached this gospel under the dispensation of the Law of Moses until his death at the hands of his citizens. He never preached that gospel again until after the rapture of the church which heard the gospel of the grace of God. After the rapture, the gospel of the kingdom was preached once again.

Mt 4:12 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;
13 And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim:
14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, [by] the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;
16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.
17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
There is context to this but the words are true.

Here is something you need to know. Consider it carefully.

The OT prepares us for a Messiah with 3 offices that are concurrent.
1) He Was a perfect prophet - This was his earthly ministry as per the gospels - A prophet speaks to the people for God.
2) He IS a perfect priest - He is at the Fathers right hand making intercession for the saints now - A Priest speaks to God on behalf of the people
3) He WILL be coming back to earth as the perfect King, ruling the world for God. The King rules over God's domain.


Ps 115:16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.
 

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
And my point is, given that Jesus Himself spoke so often of Christians suffering persecution, how could the metaphor of the bride be “destroyed and meaningless” when Christians go through the great tribulation?
Easy. The Bride of Christ is all Christians in the church age. It includes individuals, but the warnings about persecution do not refer to all Christians but to individual Christians.

Again, the Tribulation is not about persecution, but about judgement on the earth. That is clear through the seals, trumpets and vials.
These are judgements upon mankind. The Great Tribulation refers to the systematic, worldwide persecution of Christians.
You have not yet given Scripture from the Olivet Discourse or the book of Revelation to prove this.
Right. Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess Jesus is Lord

The church age is over when Jesus returns, raptures the elect, and then comes the great throne judgement.
So you are amillennial but believe in a rapture of the saints, then the great white throne? Why call it a rapture? The normal term for amillennialism is 2nd coming, not rapture. So you are a non-standard amillennial.
I’ve answered that already. All apocalyptic literature uses symbolic language throughout. That is a characteristic of the genre, isn’t it?
Correct. Apocalyptic literature uses symbolic language. However, the figures of speech that are used in apocalyptic literature all have names, and I have listed some of them: metaphor, simile, personification, hyperbole, etc. etc. So for example, for the 1000 year reign of Christ to be figurative, there must be a way in which it is figurative, and there must be a meaning for that figure of speech. "It means a big number" is not sufficient; it is not a name for a certain figure of speech. Think about it.
You missed the point. 12,000 represents a number too large to count. Obviously, we can count to 12,000.
Then the point has not been made if the number is countable.
Nature of apocalyptic literature.

The throne on earth was symbolic of God’s throne in heaven.

Yes

I do not believe there will be a millennial reign on earth.
Here's the thing. The millennial reign of Christ glorifies Christ in a huge way. I truly do not understand the opposition. All the kings and presidents who have ruled over the millennia have failed to bring in righteousness and govern perfectly in justice and fairness. Christ will rule in perfect equity and justice for 1000 years, punishing or preventing all crime and immorality, and that will prove His deity as well as the inadequacy of all other rulers. How in the world would that be a bad thing, something to be opposed?
I was pointing out the inconsistency of stating the metaphor of the Bride of Christ would be destroyed and meaningless if Jesus forced His church to go through the Great Tribulation, and then acknowledging some Christians would go through the Great Tribulation.

Are these Christians part of the Bride of Christ? Why is the metaphor destroyed and meaningless without a pretrib rapture, but not destroyed and meaningless for the Christians who go through the great trib?
The Bride of Christ will be taken to Heaven in the Rapture before the tribulation. So those who believe during the tribulation are not part of it. The seven years is the judgement of the earth, it having rejected Christ as a whole (Islam, Catholicism, etc.).
Well, I didn’t invent the belief the Great Tribulation refers to Christians. I’m sure you can find numerous scholars that go into great detail on the foundation of this belief found in scripture.
Nope. Never read or heard of that position before this. Can't find it in my library. Everyone I consult calls it God's wrath, which is not towards Christians. And once again, the judgments (seal, trumpet, vial) are all against lost people, not believers.
Thanks for the post.

Peace to you
Enjoying the give and take.
 

Ben1445

Well-Known Member
???? Serious or joking?

Peace to you
Are you at war with Iran? Are believers taking on this war themselves? I don’t think the crusades were biblically motivated either.

No, I don’t think God is finished with physical Israel.
Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

There is plenty of room for Israel in what of God’s future plans have been revealed.

If you think that Israel is the church, why is blindness come to them?
If this is physical Israel then the blindness in part is only until the fullness of the gentiles. There is an implied afterward for Israel when the word until is used.
 

Ben1445

Well-Known Member
You missed the point. 12,000 represents a number too large to count. Obviously, we can count to 12,000.

If you were talking about too many to count I think it would look like this…

Revelation 5:11
And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;


Or like this…


Genesis 32:12
And thou saidst, I will surely do thee good, and make thy seed as the sand of the sea, which cannot be numbered for multitude.
 

Ben1445

Well-Known Member
Revelation 7:

The 144000 are identified. Then a “multitude too large to count from” all over the world, wearing white robes and worshipping God.

They are identified as “those that came out of the Great Tribulation.”

Peace to you
Why would you take the time to sit and number an innumerable host of people?

The phrase after this separates the time of the sealing of the 144,000 and the number worshiping God.

The 144,000 are on the earth.
The innumerable host are before the Lord in heaven at God’s throne.
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
Easy. The Bride of Christ is all Christians in the church age. It includes individuals, but the warnings about persecution do not refer to all Christians but to individual Christians.
So, the Christians killed after the rapture, during the tribulation, are not part of the bride of Christ?
Again, the Tribulation is not about persecution, but about judgement on the earth. That is clear through the seals, trumpets and vials.

You have not yet given Scripture from the Olivet Discourse or the book of Revelation to prove this.
Revelation 7. A great number of Christians, too large to count, have been killed during the “great tribulation” and are clothed in white robes worshipping God.
So you are amillennial but believe in a rapture of the saints, then the great white throne? Why call it a rapture? The normal term for amillennialism is 2nd coming, not rapture. So you are a non-standard amillennial.
I believe the post trib rapture is taught in 1Thessilonians and Matthew 24+. Whether that makes me a non standard amillianial I do not know.
Correct. Apocalyptic literature uses symbolic language. However, the figures of speech that are used in apocalyptic literature all have names, and I have listed some of them: metaphor, simile, personification, hyperbole, etc. etc.
The martyred saints (during the great tribulation) will reign with Christ for 1000 years.

It is symbolizing the great honor they receive for their faithfulness even onto death.

Christ reigns in heaven

Please look at Revelation 7. A great multitude, too large to count, of Christians killed during “the great tribulation”

Maybe we can agree on that.

Enjoying as well

Peace to you
 

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
So, the Christians killed after the rapture, during the tribulation, are not part of the bride of Christ?
Correct.
Revelation 7. A great number of Christians, too large to count, have been killed during the “great tribulation” and are clothed in white robes worshipping God.
Right.
I believe the post trib rapture is taught in 1Thessilonians and Matthew 24+. Whether that makes me a non standard amillianial I do not know.
It does.
The martyred saints (during the great tribulation) will reign with Christ for 1000 years.

It is symbolizing the great honor they receive for their faithfulness even onto death.
Right.
Christ reigns in heaven

Please look at Revelation 7. A great multitude, too large to count, of Christians killed during “the great tribulation”
Right, but not relevant. Apparently you have all OT and pre-trib saints just standing around watching the lucky martyrs of the tribulation. So if I were to be martyred for Christ (possible nowadays), I'd have to back off from Christ and let the lucky tribulation martyrs hog all the show. :Biggrin
Maybe we can agree on that.

Enjoying as well

Peace to you
God bless.
 
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JD731

Well-Known Member
Here is a capsule view from the prophet Jesus Christ. This is given as if the history of Israel was unbroken by the last two thousand years of the church because in actuality it is unbroken. The national entity of Israel has been considered dead by God since just before his crucifixion when the national rulers rejected him as Israel's Messiah in Matthew 12. For those who have followed my posts you will remember I quoted Ex 4 where God told us this collective entity is his firstborn son. Now that son has died and in AD 70 they were buried in the nations of the world and were no longer a collective entity. Dead people do not have a history but their unconditional and everlasting covenants concerning real estate and nationhood is not dependent in any way upon them, but on God who gave the promises. God must be strong enough and wise enough to keep his promises if he is going to make them unconditional. Israel is a continuing entity and the promises will be fulfilled because of their resurrection from the dead.

Looking back

But, because God is a merciful God and a God of the second chance, he gave them 40 years to repent while he built his house for his bride. Remember I have already quoted Heb 3 showing this. But consider this;

Lk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree (national symbol for Israel) planted in his vineyard (Judah see Isa 5); and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard (Our Lord Jesus), Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

Of course we know it did not bear fruit and was cut down and removed from the vineyard in 70 AD. The citizens were scattered through the nations. Now the nation is both dead and buried. But many of the citizens are still alive and Jesus would prophecy a short time later that sometime out in the future he would send his angels to gather them back to the land, but it would be after his house was full. Consider it here;

Matt 24: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be........


27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (RE 19)
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Next, after his appearing, he will send his angels to gather the scattered citizens with whom he has made covenant promises back to the land
Those of you who are hung up on the word "elect" should understand this is the elect citizens of Israel. The tree began to produce leaves in 1948 but it has born no fruit yet. This tells us the time is near.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The reason the generation will not pass away is that it was interrupted by death, burial, and resurrection.

I probably do not have this 100% accurate. I am in the learning mode, but I am sure I have many things right about the last days. We have seen the resurrection of the nation.
_________________________
So, I am going to show you the whole earthly kingdom of Jesus Christ from his first coming and offering to Israel the kingdom until his return as King without the record of this age we live in now, This is as if it is an unbroken age.
_________________________________
Lk 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very littl have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:

21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
28 And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem.
 

Ascetic X

Well-Known Member
…. The national entity of Israel has been considered dead by God since just before his crucifixion when the national rulers rejected him as Israel's Messiah in Matthew 12. For those who have followed my posts you will remember I quoted Ex 4 where God told us this collective entity is his firstborn son. Now that son has died and in AD 70 they were buried in the nations of the world and were no longer a collective entity.
But — 1. Jesus forgave them as He hung on the cross 2. Israel is a national collective entity since founding May 14, 1948.
Dead people do not have a history but their unconditional and everlasting covenants concerning real estate and nationhood is not dependent in any way upon them, but on God who gave the promises. God must be strong enough and wise enough to keep his promises if he is going to make them unconditional. Israel is a continuing entity and the promises will be fulfilled because of their resurrection from the dead.

Looking back

But, because God is a merciful God and a God of the second chance, he gave them 40 years to repent while he built his house for his bride. Remember I have already quoted Heb 3 showing this. But consider this;

Lk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree (national symbol for Israel) planted in his vineyard (Judah see Isa 5); and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard (Our Lord Jesus), Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

Of course we know it did not bear fruit and was cut down and removed from the vineyard in 70 AD. The citizens were scattered through the nations. Now the nation is both dead and buried. But many of the citizens are still alive and Jesus would prophecy a short time later that sometime out in the future he would send his angels to gather them back to the land, but it would be after his house was full.
Again, the nation of Israel is alive, not dead and buried. Founded May 14, 1948.
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
….Apparently you have all OT and pre-trib saints just standing around watching the lucky martyrs of the tribulation. So if I were to be martyred for Christ (possible nowadays), I'd have to back off from Christ and let the luck trib martyrs hog all the show. :Biggrin

God bless.
Lucky Tribulation martyrs? I know (hope) you mean that as a joke.

According to scripture, they are in heaven beseeching God “how long” before His judgement comes upon those persecuting Christians during the great tribulation.

Peace to you
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
Not at all over my head. Your facts are wrong. Israel is not dead and buried. I forgive your insult.
Not meant as an insult. MY reasoning was over your head. Maybe my reasoning is wrong because you did not get it. At the very least you do not agree.

Ez 37:1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

This is a prophesy. I am not making it up. Whatever part of it that has not come to pass yet will certainly come to pass at some time. God has not yet put his Spirit into them.

Would you agree with me that God thinks Israel has been in the graveyard of the nations?
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
Lk 14:15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed [is] he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God.

Notice that all these parables are about the end of the day. Here it is a supper time.

16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.

Now we find out that the refusal to prioritize his supper among those who were bidden angered the certain man and he was insulted. His response was to send out an invitation to some who were not previously bidden and wasn't as prosperous. The same servant was sent out.

21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.

What did the certain man desire so strongly? the answer is in V 23. He wanted his house to be full of guests for his supper. Later we will find out it is a wedding supper. Remember, this is a prophecy.

22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.
23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.

There is a great penalty for refusing the invitation of this certain man. The invitation is rescinded. Remember it is at the end of something. In this case it is the end of the day.

24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Matt 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Here we go again. This is spoken in the temple in Jerusalem during Crucifixion week to the Jews who were bidden and would not come. It is a prophecy about their response to Jesus. They would not come.

4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. (remember Stephan in Acts 7)

In Luke it was one servant he sent out, here it is all his servants.

7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

This is a major transition. It is safe to say the invitation for those originally bidden was off the table.

8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

There is now a new group of invitees but the problem with some is they do not wear the only proper clothing for the wedding.

11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

Now for the first time we find out the wedding guests are also the bride. they must have on a wedding garment.
_________________________________________________________________________________

We know when in time this wedding will take place. It will be at the inauguration of the Kingdom of Christ.

Re 19:5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed[are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

This scene is in heaven and the bride is there and she has been there since the rapture.
Re 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven,


Revelation 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
The Lord is coming back to earth to reign with his bride, the church.

Re 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Even so come, Lord Jesus!
 
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