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What I said is true. In a future post I will prove it so thoroughly that it will be impossible to doubt. You could learn it yourself if you just read the scriptures, believing what they say without any preconceived ideas and without any help from me. But now, I want to go a different direction in my posts. Having sound doctrine requires one to believe the words in their context and knowing that God has different dispensations where his operative principles of divine dealing with men changes because of the failure of men to obey and he makes transitions within those dispensations.It doesn't mean it wasn't preached. He was baptized. John introduced Him as the Lamb of God. He told the Jews of the sign of Jonah.
All this before any record of any Jewish plot to put Him to death.
And Paul told the Hebrews, that as the eternal high priest, Christ had to have an offering to make on the behalf of the people, and that offering was His body.
Paul's gospel is the the Gospel, and the only Gospel that was preached from the promised seed of the Woman to now.
Easy. The Bride of Christ is all Christians in the church age. It includes individuals, but the warnings about persecution do not refer to all Christians but to individual Christians.And my point is, given that Jesus Himself spoke so often of Christians suffering persecution, how could the metaphor of the bride be “destroyed and meaningless” when Christians go through the great tribulation?
You have not yet given Scripture from the Olivet Discourse or the book of Revelation to prove this.These are judgements upon mankind. The Great Tribulation refers to the systematic, worldwide persecution of Christians.
So you are amillennial but believe in a rapture of the saints, then the great white throne? Why call it a rapture? The normal term for amillennialism is 2nd coming, not rapture. So you are a non-standard amillennial.Right. Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess Jesus is Lord
The church age is over when Jesus returns, raptures the elect, and then comes the great throne judgement.
Correct. Apocalyptic literature uses symbolic language. However, the figures of speech that are used in apocalyptic literature all have names, and I have listed some of them: metaphor, simile, personification, hyperbole, etc. etc. So for example, for the 1000 year reign of Christ to be figurative, there must be a way in which it is figurative, and there must be a meaning for that figure of speech. "It means a big number" is not sufficient; it is not a name for a certain figure of speech. Think about it.I’ve answered that already. All apocalyptic literature uses symbolic language throughout. That is a characteristic of the genre, isn’t it?
Then the point has not been made if the number is countable.You missed the point. 12,000 represents a number too large to count. Obviously, we can count to 12,000.
Here's the thing. The millennial reign of Christ glorifies Christ in a huge way. I truly do not understand the opposition. All the kings and presidents who have ruled over the millennia have failed to bring in righteousness and govern perfectly in justice and fairness. Christ will rule in perfect equity and justice for 1000 years, punishing or preventing all crime and immorality, and that will prove His deity as well as the inadequacy of all other rulers. How in the world would that be a bad thing, something to be opposed?Nature of apocalyptic literature.
The throne on earth was symbolic of God’s throne in heaven.
Yes
I do not believe there will be a millennial reign on earth.
The Bride of Christ will be taken to Heaven in the Rapture before the tribulation. So those who believe during the tribulation are not part of it. The seven years is the judgement of the earth, it having rejected Christ as a whole (Islam, Catholicism, etc.).I was pointing out the inconsistency of stating the metaphor of the Bride of Christ would be destroyed and meaningless if Jesus forced His church to go through the Great Tribulation, and then acknowledging some Christians would go through the Great Tribulation.
Are these Christians part of the Bride of Christ? Why is the metaphor destroyed and meaningless without a pretrib rapture, but not destroyed and meaningless for the Christians who go through the great trib?
Nope. Never read or heard of that position before this. Can't find it in my library. Everyone I consult calls it God's wrath, which is not towards Christians. And once again, the judgments (seal, trumpet, vial) are all against lost people, not believers.Well, I didn’t invent the belief the Great Tribulation refers to Christians. I’m sure you can find numerous scholars that go into great detail on the foundation of this belief found in scripture.
Enjoying the give and take.Thanks for the post.
Peace to you
Are you at war with Iran? Are believers taking on this war themselves? I don’t think the crusades were biblically motivated either.???? Serious or joking?
Peace to you
You missed the point. 12,000 represents a number too large to count. Obviously, we can count to 12,000.
Why would you take the time to sit and number an innumerable host of people?Revelation 7:
The 144000 are identified. Then a “multitude too large to count from” all over the world, wearing white robes and worshipping God.
They are identified as “those that came out of the Great Tribulation.”
Peace to you
So, the Christians killed after the rapture, during the tribulation, are not part of the bride of Christ?Easy. The Bride of Christ is all Christians in the church age. It includes individuals, but the warnings about persecution do not refer to all Christians but to individual Christians.
Revelation 7. A great number of Christians, too large to count, have been killed during the “great tribulation” and are clothed in white robes worshipping God.Again, the Tribulation is not about persecution, but about judgement on the earth. That is clear through the seals, trumpets and vials.
You have not yet given Scripture from the Olivet Discourse or the book of Revelation to prove this.
I believe the post trib rapture is taught in 1Thessilonians and Matthew 24+. Whether that makes me a non standard amillianial I do not know.So you are amillennial but believe in a rapture of the saints, then the great white throne? Why call it a rapture? The normal term for amillennialism is 2nd coming, not rapture. So you are a non-standard amillennial.
The martyred saints (during the great tribulation) will reign with Christ for 1000 years.Correct. Apocalyptic literature uses symbolic language. However, the figures of speech that are used in apocalyptic literature all have names, and I have listed some of them: metaphor, simile, personification, hyperbole, etc. etc.
Correct.So, the Christians killed after the rapture, during the tribulation, are not part of the bride of Christ?
Right.Revelation 7. A great number of Christians, too large to count, have been killed during the “great tribulation” and are clothed in white robes worshipping God.
It does.I believe the post trib rapture is taught in 1Thessilonians and Matthew 24+. Whether that makes me a non standard amillianial I do not know.
Right.The martyred saints (during the great tribulation) will reign with Christ for 1000 years.
It is symbolizing the great honor they receive for their faithfulness even onto death.
Right, but not relevant. Apparently you have all OT and pre-trib saints just standing around watching the lucky martyrs of the tribulation. So if I were to be martyred for Christ (possible nowadays), I'd have to back off from Christ and let the lucky tribulation martyrs hog all the show.Christ reigns in heaven
Please look at Revelation 7. A great multitude, too large to count, of Christians killed during “the great tribulation”

God bless.Maybe we can agree on that.
Enjoying as well
Peace to you
But — 1. Jesus forgave them as He hung on the cross 2. Israel is a national collective entity since founding May 14, 1948.…. The national entity of Israel has been considered dead by God since just before his crucifixion when the national rulers rejected him as Israel's Messiah in Matthew 12. For those who have followed my posts you will remember I quoted Ex 4 where God told us this collective entity is his firstborn son. Now that son has died and in AD 70 they were buried in the nations of the world and were no longer a collective entity.
Again, the nation of Israel is alive, not dead and buried. Founded May 14, 1948.Dead people do not have a history but their unconditional and everlasting covenants concerning real estate and nationhood is not dependent in any way upon them, but on God who gave the promises. God must be strong enough and wise enough to keep his promises if he is going to make them unconditional. Israel is a continuing entity and the promises will be fulfilled because of their resurrection from the dead.
Looking back
But, because God is a merciful God and a God of the second chance, he gave them 40 years to repent while he built his house for his bride. Remember I have already quoted Heb 3 showing this. But consider this;
Lk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree (national symbol for Israel) planted in his vineyard (Judah see Isa 5); and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard (Our Lord Jesus), Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
Of course we know it did not bear fruit and was cut down and removed from the vineyard in 70 AD. The citizens were scattered through the nations. Now the nation is both dead and buried. But many of the citizens are still alive and Jesus would prophecy a short time later that sometime out in the future he would send his angels to gather them back to the land, but it would be after his house was full.
Lucky Tribulation martyrs? I know (hope) you mean that as a joke.….Apparently you have all OT and pre-trib saints just standing around watching the lucky martyrs of the tribulation. So if I were to be martyred for Christ (possible nowadays), I'd have to back off from Christ and let the luck trib martyrs hog all the show.
God bless.
Not at all over my head. Your facts are wrong. Israel is not dead and buried. I forgive your insult.I see my reasoning went over your head but I am not blaming you. It is probably my fault. Sorry.
Not meant as an insult. MY reasoning was over your head. Maybe my reasoning is wrong because you did not get it. At the very least you do not agree.Not at all over my head. Your facts are wrong. Israel is not dead and buried. I forgive your insult.