The date of the crucifixion.

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The key is that the first day of Unleavened Bread is a high sabbath according to The Law of Moses. Nobody is doing anything on that day. No trials, no executions, nothing.

Also, the Law specifies how Passover is to be observed. You must stay indoors all night. But Jesus and his disciples get up and leave and go to the Mount of Olives. Did Jesus violate the Law of the Passover? I don't think so.

Or was Jesus the true Passover Lamb? If he was, then wouldn't he be crucified on Passover at the same time that Passover lambs were being slaughtered all through Judea and in the Temple? I don't see any way that Christ is not the literal Passover and His death would occur at the same time as the example Passover lambs. The Passover Lamb is not killed late in the day on 15 Nissan, on the High Sabbath of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. It's just impossible.

If scripture "seems" to indicate the Last Supper was a Passover, then one has to acknowledge that a Sabbath has begun at sundown (Unleavened Bread). But then why did they hasten to remove the body of Jesus before Sabbath???? That makes no common sense if they are already taking action on a Sabbath Day (1st day of Unleavened Bread). This doesn't fit.

Our understanding of "the first day of unleavened bread" must be altered. Indeed, Eidersheim (IIRC) says that it was common to refer to the first day of the festival as preparation day, the day before 14 Nissan. On preparation day, it was traditional to eat a formal preparation meal on the eve of Passover. This must be what they were observing at the Last Supper.

So the passage in Mark is saying, "Now, on the first day of Unleavened Bread (which means preparation day, the 13th) when the Passover lamb is sacrificed (IOW, describing what the feast is about, not what the first day of the festival is about)". This interpretation is forced upon us due to our knowledge of The Law.

The Bible is therefore interpreting itself here. It is up to us to look closely at all scripture regarding Passover before arriving at conclusions that ultimately make no sense in terms of the Word of God elsewhere.

 

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The key is that the first day of Unleavened Bread is a high sabbath according to The Law of Moses. Nobody is doing anything on that day. No trials, no executions, nothing.

Also, the Law specifies how Passover is to be observed. You must stay indoors all night. But Jesus and his disciples get up and leave and go to the Mount of Olives. Did Jesus violate the Law of the Passover? I don't think so.

Or was Jesus the true Passover Lamb? If he was, then wouldn't he be crucified on Passover at the same time that Passover lambs were being slaughtered all through Judea and in the Temple? I don't see any way that Christ is not the literal Passover and His death would occur at the same time as the example Passover lambs. The Passover Lamb is not killed late in the day on 15 Nissan, on the High Sabbath of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. It's just impossible.

If scripture "seems" to indicate the Last Supper was a Passover, then one has to acknowledge that a Sabbath has begun at sundown (Unleavened Bread). But then why did they hasten to remove the body of Jesus before Sabbath???? That makes no common sense if they are already taking action on a Sabbath Day (1st day of Unleavened Bread). This doesn't fit.

Our understanding of "the first day of unleavened bread" must be altered. Indeed, Eidersheim (IIRC) says that it was common to refer to the first day of the festival as preparation day, the day before 14 Nissan. On preparation day, it was traditional to eat a formal preparation meal on the eve of Passover. This must be what they were observing at the Last Supper.

So the passage in Mark is saying, "Now, on the first day of Unleavened Bread (which means preparation day, the 13th) when the Passover lamb is sacrificed (IOW, describing what the feast is about, not what the first day of the festival is about)". This interpretation is forced upon us due to our knowledge of The Law.

The Bible is therefore interpreting itself here. It is up to us to look closely at all scripture regarding Passover before arriving at conclusions that ultimately make no sense in terms of the Word of God elsewhere.

Many have this wrong.
First, Jewish days begin with their evening.
Between the Passover the 14th and the feast of unleaved bread there are only 7 days of unleaved bread not 8.
Starting the evening of the 14th, Exodus 12:18. So that leaves only 6 days for the feast ending at the evening of the 21st not having unleaven bread, Deuteronomy 16:8.
The confusion is do to two facts: the feast of unleaved bread is 7 days and the days of unleavened bread are only 7 days beginning on the Passover itself per Mark 14:12 and Exodus 12:18.

 

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Of the dates for the Crucifixion, either only one of those dates is true or it never really happened. Which date is true?

 

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Many have this wrong.
First, Jewish days begin with their evening.
Between the Passover the 14th and the feast of unleaved bread there are only 7 days of unleaved bread not 8.
Starting the evening of the 14th, Exodus 12:18. So that leaves only 6 days for the feast ending at the evening of the 21st not having unleaven bread, Deuteronomy 16:8.
The confusion is do to two facts: the feast of unleaved bread is 7 days and the days of unleavened bread are only 7 days beginning on the Passover itself per Mark 14:12 and Exodus 12:18.

Are you disagreeing with me or talking past me or something else?
15 Nissan is a high sabbath. If the last supper were Passover, no trials could take place the next day. Ergo, the last supper was the traditional preparation meal (See Edersheim).

 

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Jesus' birth was likely circa 7 BC, because Herod was still alive for at least 2 years after Jesus' birth. That puts the Passion much earlier than the poll assumes. One needs to find the year when 14 Nissan was on Thursday, which makes 2 sabbaths in a row, Friday the 15th (first day of Unleavened Bread -- High Sabbath) and then the normal Saturday Sabbath. That makes three literal days and nights in the tomb.

 

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Are you disagreeing with me or talking past me or something else?

Yes, yes and yes.

15 Nissan is a high sabbath.

It is a type of sabbath. Where unlike a weekly Sabbath where food cannot be prepared, food can be. On the 15th and the 21st of that week. The 15th as per Exodus 12:16.

If the last supper were Passover, no trials could take place the next day.

Jesus trials were not legal per Jewish law. Not against Roman law. Because Jesus was crucified on the 15th Joseph had to wait till sunset to ask for Jesus' body, Mark 15:42, Geneva Bible, "And nowe when the night was come (because it was the day of the preparation that is before the Sabbath)". And the Jewish days begin with their evenings. That it was the evening of the Perparation, Our Thursday evening before our Friday. Mark 14:12 per Exodus 12:18 was the 14th.

 

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Yes, yes and yes.

It is a type of sabbath. Where unlike a weekly Sabbath where food cannot be prepared, food can be. On the 15th and the 21st of that week. The 15th as per Exodus 12:16.

That doesn't work. Food prep is one thing, but not messing around with dead bodies. Why did they rush to take down Jesus' body before the Sabbath if It was already a Sabbath where such things are forbidden?

This is how we know for a certainty that Jesus' trials were during the day on the 14th, before the sundown Sabbath of the 15th. So there were two Sabbaths in a row before Sunday. Jesus' body was taken down on Thursday.

The other reason we know that Jesus was crucified on the 14th before sundown is 1 Corinthians 5:7.

How could "our passover" not be The Passover? Jesus Christ is what Passover prefigures in the first place. How could the actual, real passover not die on the actual date of passover? Think about it. It's Christian fundamentals 101.

The year of Jesus' crucifixion is that year when 14 Nissan fell on a Thursday. Can anyone find that year?

Have an excellent day.

 

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Why did they rush to take down Jesus' body before the Sabbath if It was already a Sabbath where such things are forbidden?

They did not rush to take down the body. Rather had to wait till the 15th was ended to ask for the body. It happens at the beginning of the preparation, Mark 15:42.

 

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The women had the whole preparation day to prepare spices, Luke 23:55-56, ". . . the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid. And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment."

 

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They did not rush to take down the body. Rather had to wait till the 15th was ended to ask for the body. It happens at the beginning of the preparation, Mark 15:42.

This doesn't agree with Mark 15:42. IOW, why did they need to wait for the sabbath to begin (?!) according to what you just said? Wouldn't they need to take it down before the sabbath?

At first, you disagreed by saying it would be okay to do all this on the 15th because a High Sabbath lets you prepare food, so presumably, you can do whatever you want such as fiddle around with heathen Roman gentiles and call for criminals like Barabbas to be free and attend crucifixions. Now you say that while you can do all that on the 15th, you can't take a dead body off a cross, defiling yourself in the process, until what? the sabbath begins? You must wait to defile yourself on the sabbath? You made it sound like the 15th was a lesser sabbath because you could presumably "do more" than on a regular Sabbath.

And you did not address the other points which are actually much more obvious. What is the explanation for why Jesus, "Our Passover" did not die on Passover? How does that fit? Did God miss his dates? The whole Old Testament, especially the Law, prefigures Christ's sacrifice. Christ is the True Passover Lamb. How is he not being crucified on the 14th??? Everything points to the fact that He was. Why are people so adamant that this cannot be true? IMO, this is a strange thing that people should be so much against Christ dying on Passover. He's the Lamb. He's the Passover. He's our Passover.

 

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This doesn't agree with Mark 15:42. IOW, why did they need to wait for the sabbath to begin (?!) according to what you just said?

Jewish days begin with their evening. Mark 14:12-16 was the 14th per Exodus 12:18. So Mark 14:17 was the beginning of the 15th. Mark 15:42 was the beginning of the preparation, the 16th.

 

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Jewish days begin with their evening. Mark 14:12-16 was the 14th per Exodus 12:18. So Mark 14:17 was the beginning of the 15th. Mark 15:42 was the beginning of the preparation, the 16th.

This misinterpretation starts in Mark 14:12. The problem is that this analysis should have started in verse 1, not verse 12. To confirm this, look at verses 1 and 2. They are going to arrest Jesus "not on the feast day". Do we think this is included in the narrative for nothing? It's there to help us understand, to help us to think, if we are meditating on the Word, day and night.

In the light of verse 2, was Jesus arrested on Passover/Unleavened Bread?

What then is the meaning of verse 12? What is the first day of unleavened bread? Since we are now keeping verse 2 in mind, how might one parse verse 12. "There is a festival called unleavened bread where a lamb is sacrificed. On the first day of that festival..."

The first day was actually the preparation day of "unleavened bread when they sacrifice the passover", the 13th, not the actual day of passover. That would mean that the last supper was the traditional preparation day meal, like a Thanksgiving in the USA. Because the actual passover meal is a bit more "harsh" in its requirements.

How can we prove this? Look at the Law of Moses, Exodus 12:8-14. What was the Law for passover?

And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it. Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof.And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire. And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD'S passover.​

You don't eat the passover in a reclining position in a leisurely fashion like Jesus and His disciples at the last supper. And you don't dip bread in a sop, either. You stand with loins girded and eat in haste. So the last supper was NOT the passover.

So what can we conclude? The night of the last supper -- and of Jesus arrest -- was not a feast day, just as the chief priests and scribes had planned, as per Mark 14:2.

Now this is not a common understanding which should surprise nobody. Proverbs says the treasures of Wisdom are indeed hidden from "common understanding". You really do have to look, closely.

 

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This misinterpretation starts in Mark 14:12. The problem is that this analysis should have started in verse 1, not verse 12. . . .

Mark 14:1 has an interpretation of "the feast" which begins on the 15th, the day after the 14th, the Passover.
". . . After two days was the feast of the passover, and of unleavened bread: . . ." It is nevertheless Mark 14:12 which mentions "the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, . . ." Which both are identified by Exodus 12 as being the 14th not the 15th. Some translators have also added the words "the feast of" to Mark 14:12. See Matthew 26:17 KJV. Making the day of the crucifixtion to be the 16th on our Friday. The 33 AD date was calculated for a 14th date to be on the Friday.

 

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Mark 14:1 has an interpretation of "the feast" which begins on the 15th, the day after the 14th, the Passover.
". . . After two days was the feast of the passover, and of unleavened bread: . . ." It is nevertheless Mark 14:12 which mentions "the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, . . ." Which both are identified by Exodus 12 as being the 14th not the 15th. Some translators have also added the words "the feast of" to Mark 14:12. See Matthew 26:17 KJV. Making the day of the crucifixtion to be the 16th on our Friday. The 33 AD date was calculated for a 14th date to be on the Friday.

Why don't Jesus and the disciples follow the Law of the passover in the upper room?

Also, explain Mark 14:2 if it's not too much trouble.

 

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Why don't Jesus and the disciples follow the Law of the passover in the upper room?

How did they not follow the Law regarding the Passover in the upper room? The evening of the 15th.

Also, explain Mark 14:2 if it's not too much trouble.

Mark 14:1-2, ". . . the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him by craft, and put him to death. But they said, Not on the feast [day], lest there be an uproar of the people. . . ."
Mark 14:10- , ". . . And Judas Iscariot, one of the twelve, went unto the chief priests, to betray him unto them. And when they heard it, they were glad, and promised to give him money. And he sought how he might conveniently betray him."
Jesus ate the Passover with His disciples. Mark 14:12-18. Judas was at the table following the institution of His remembrance, Luke 22:19-21, ". . . And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. . . ."

 

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How did they not follow the Law regarding the Passover in the upper room? The evening of the 15th.

So you didn't read my post. Wonderful. This reminds me of Jesus spending the day performing miracles and then at the end of the day the pharisees demand that He show them a sign. How can you ask this question when I quoted the Law of the passover in my post? Did Jesus and the disciples eat the meal in the upper room in haste, standing up with their loins girded?

Did Jesus and the disciples eat the meal in the upper room according to the Law of the passover? What's the answer to that question? Of course the answer shatters the traditional view of the last supper. But notice the word "traditional" in that sentence. Too many of us are wedded to traditions of the church that just aren't true when we look closely at scripture. Closely. Carefully. Thoughtfully.

The big clue is that the traditional understanding has Jesus, our passover, not dying on passover. That should have been a red flag. Jesus, our passover, was always going to be the passover lamb. How can He not be? How then do our traditions have him dying not on the passover?

I predict you will ignore everything in this post and simply re-post a version of your argument -- ignoring all these rebuttals.

 

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How can you ask this question when I quoted the Law of the passover in my post?

Exodus 12:11, ". . . And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD'S passover. . . ."
Ok, genius, why when the supper was ended, John 13:2, not during as in the counterfiet reading being used, was the footwashing done?

 

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Exodus 12:11, ". . . And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD'S passover. . . ."
Ok, genius, why when the supper was ended, John 13:2, not during as in the counterfiet reading being used, was the footwashing done?

". . . And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD'S passover. . . ."​

Are Jesus and His disciples eating with haste, with staves in hand and sandal-shod? Or are they reclining and eating in a liesurely manner?

Answering that question tells us what meal it was they were actually eating. That answer also gives us the date of the upper room meal.

 

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". . . And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD'S passover. . . ."​

Are Jesus and His disciples eating with haste, with staves in hand and sandal-shod? Or are they reclining and eating in a liesurely manner?

Answering that question tells us what meal it was they were actually eating. That answer also gives us the date of the upper room meal.

The details of them the eating the Passover are not given. You have supposed what was not in evidence. The fact that the eating preceded the footwashing.

The evening, after sundown April 5th 30AD.

 

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The details of them the eating the Passover are not given.

Really? Then what's going on in Matthew 26:17-30?

Obviously, they are NOT eating a passover. They are not eating in haste, loins girded, sandal-shod, staves in hands.

So if it's not passover, what date does that suggest to you?