37818
Well-Known Member
Matthew 26:18, ". . . say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples. . . ." Am I to understand you believe Jesus to have lied?
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
The date of the crucifixion.
- Thread starter 37818
- Start date
ad finitum
Active Member
That's a good question. Jesus misleads people about His intentions in John 7. Look at verse 8. Jesus tells people one thing, then does what he claimed he would not do.
But is that's what happening in Matthew 26? I don't think so. Jesus tells people to secure the room by telling the owners that He'll keep passover there, but in fact Jesus is the passover. So he'll actually keep passover on the cross the next day on the 14th. The reader should already have known that Christ was the Passover Lamb. In light of that, it is well known that Passover includes the preparation day and the traditional preparation meal which is partaken of on the Nisan 13th/14th evening. This is before the Passover proper which occurs at sundown on the 14th/15th boundary. The passover meal proper is much more strict, being eaten standing up, staff in hand, in haste, sandal-shod, to commemorate the first Passover in Egypt. It's not a meal taken reclining.
Thus we know that the upper-room meal was eaten on the 13th/14th evening. This was a traditional preparation meal, not a passover meal. Jesus and His disciples eat reclining, taking their time, talking, discussing, eating bread with a sop -- all things you don't do when you eat a real passover according the the Law.
37818
Well-Known Member
That is a false narrative. John 7:8, ". . . Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast; for my time is not yet full come. . . ." 96% of the gospel of John manuscripts correctly read which include papyrus 66 and papyrus 75 and the Vanticanus on this reading.
ad finitum
Active Member
That's another topic, but my argument doesn't depend upon this.
37818
Well-Known Member
Then your argument makes no sense. Jesus with His disciples including Judas Iscariot ate the Passover. Per Mark 14:12-16.
ad finitum
Active Member
The verses you cite describe preparation for passover, not eating passover.
37818
Well-Known Member
Yes Mark 14:12-16. All Mark says about eating is Mark 14:18,". . . And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, . . ." The setting would be after what ever standing and eating per Exodus 12 would have been done. That exodus was of the history of that night of the 15th.
ad finitum
Active Member
Not according to Matthew 26:20-21
"... Now when evening came, Jesus was reclining at the table with the twelve. And as they were eating..."
37818
Well-Known Member
Exodus 12:11 actually did not say the passover must be eaten standing up, but ". . . thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD'S passover. . . ." And the foot washing was not until the supper had ended, John 13:2-4. And Judas had been at the table prior when Jesus instituted the remembrance, Luke 22:19-21. On that original Passver night they did not leave till morning after the death angel had passed through the land of Egypt.
Last edited:
ad finitum
Active Member
John 13:23
I'm trying to picture eating with your belt on, sandals on, staff in hand and reclining, with someone's head in your bosom. I must confess, I don't see it.
ad finitum
Active Member
In the year 26, 14 Nisan begins on what we would call Wednesday evening (Nisan 13/14 boundary) which means that the passover meal is next day (Thursday) at the Nisan 14/15 boundary.
This year works well with the known dates of Herod's death some few years "BC". Jesus would have been born at least 2 years before Herod's death. So year 26 for the Passion clicks into the date puzzle very nicely.
The meal in the upper room was on Wednesday on the Nisan 13/14 boundary. They were not eating a passover meal but rather the traditional preparation day meal which was in those days part of "keeping passover". 13 Nisan was considered to be "the first of unleavened" according to tradition because it was the preparation for the passover/unleavened feasts and it had its own meal, according to tradition.
An anolog to this in our culture would be black Friday as the unofficial "first day" of the Christmas festival season.
37818
Well-Known Member
The first day of unleavened bread begins the evening of the 14th of Nisan, Exodus 12:18. In 26AD our Thursday evening. Calendar Converter
ad finitum
Active Member
Yes! That day, 14/15 Nisan, Thursday, is the day of the crucifixion -- Passover.
The previous day/evening (13/14 boundary) was the meal in the upper room. John 13:1-2.
Last edited:
37818
Well-Known Member
In 26AD the day of the 14th is a Friday. The 15th falls on the weekly Sabbath. But per John 13:1-2 the supper was ended. And is after Luke 22:19-21.
ad finitum
Active Member
Yes, my mistake. I should have said year 27. My eye mis-tracked on the chart.
John 12:1-2 From the Greek gloss:
"[1] Before the feast of the Passover, Jesus knowing that His hour had come, this that He would depart out of the world to the father, having love, the own who were in the world, to the end He loved them, [2] and supper taking place, the Devil already having put into the heart of Judas, son of Simon Iscariot, that he should betray Him..."
This is all one sentence in Greek. The present participle in "supper taking place" puts this meal before the Passover feast. So this meal is on the 13th/14th boundary.
37818
Well-Known Member
Judas was at Jesus' institution of His remembrance, Luke 22:19-21. And the date was the 15th following the Passover day the 14th, Mark 14:12-16, per Exodus 12:18. Besides the best reading for John 13:2 being the "supper being ended." Both the majority text and oldest reading Papyrus 66.
ad finitum
Active Member
Supper being ended, before the Passover (verse 1). It's all one sentence in Greek. Before Passover and supper being ended...
Before the Passover, the supper was already wrapping up. Therefore, they have not just eaten the Passover. There is only one possible interpretation of that.
37818
Well-Known Member
John 13:2 the supper was ended.
John 12:50 - John 13:1, ". . . And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak. Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. . . ." John 13:2-4, "
And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him; Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God; He riseth from supper, . . ." Remember Judas was at the table per Luke 22:21, and what followed.
ad finitum
Active Member
In case clarification is needed, in Greek, verses 1 through 4 are all one sentence. Everything in the sentence (verses 1-4) is prefaced by "Now before the feast of passover..." Nothing in that sentence is grammatically during or after "The feast of the passover". Grammatically, all the events are before the feast of the passover, including Jesus' realizations (that His hour had come, that He should soon depart, that He had loved his own, etc.) which are expressed as active participles. Grammatically, the meal in the upper room takes place before the feast of the passover. According to the sentence, the meal having ended, has ended "before the feast of the passover" has even begun. That puts it 24 hours before the passover meal. There are no two ways about it.