The Day od the week of Jesus' Crucifixion and the Apostolic Constitutions

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn:
the Passover-meal - the Seder - could not have been eaten before the passover lamb had been slaughtered!

True on animal sacrifices, but on Passover Christ died and would not be available for the Sedar, so Christ, being smart as he is, held the Last Supper or Sedar before his death within the Passover week. </font>[/QUOTE]Your's is the usual explanation; it deserves contemplation because that is how most honest Christian have tried to understand it for all the centuries now : THAT IS WHAT MAKES IT DIFFICULT. They never proved another option; another possible explanation! The most obvious lies right at hand, that Jesus' actual and OWN, 'EATING' and 'DRINKING' of the PASSOVER, is explained and given, right there in the Scriptures as it tells of Jesus' EXPERIENCE of it - the PASSOVER of God - IN GETHSEMANE, where He prays to the Father to help Him empty the cup given Him to drink!
Notice that Jesus Himself did not eat or drink anything at the table of the Last Supper - that meal had ONE purpose for Jesus Christ: it was "TO PREPARE" for what lay ahead for Him, namely, the BREAKING of His Body for sin and the DRINKING of His Blood for sin - Jesus' 'observance' of the Passover Meal (Which once again, doesn't show any resemblance with the Jewish thing called 'Seder').
This was something NEW - the Christian Institution of "The Lord's Supper" as it is CALLED - it was NT observance.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Jesus' DEATH - His "TASTING death" - was the 'observance'; the perfect fulfilment of the Old Testament "Passover of God"-Institution, once for all, for the "sins of many".

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

To Ascund,
You sommer assumed I didn't read "the article" - not that it matters; but have you read my criticism against the 'Essene-theory'? No? If I remember correctly, try book 1, Goshen to Golgotha, Part one of it, 'Goshen to Gethsemane'. (The second part of it I called 'Gethsemane to Golgotha')
But you won't need it, if only you could cathch a glimpse of the true Passover of God, Jesus Christ our Lord Himself IN THE GIVING OF HIMSELF for us.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

A bit of irony:
I did go after all to the wikipedia site on that "article" on the Essenes, and found that it was "cleared up to conform to a higher standard of quality"!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
Gerhard, according to your profile you're interested in theology of the Sabbath, frankly it has been a 100% failure, you are messed up big time. Over and out Warpy.

I have more than once explained 'my' "theology of the Sabbath", that Sabbath-faith should be Resurrection-Faith or it is neither Christian nor Faith. I it had been a "100% failure", then I have failed indeedin THIS effort of mine. I myself though, has found something to be really excited about about the Sabbath - that is Christ-centered and of Christ-essence. I have received this bountiful merciful discovery of why the CHURCH has reason to "feas" her "Sabbath Days" - as Colossians 2:15 gives us the assurance and encouragement in it: "BECAUSE / FOR": Christ has conquered, is Victor over the principalities of this world in that, according to verse 12 further of that same chapter, HE ROSE FROM THE DEAD!
That is my being messed up big deal and my 100% failure. I shall revel in it, and boast in Christ for it.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

But you have failed so far to give me an answer to my question on this thread, where does the fiction of a Friday-crucifixion come from?

 

[prophecynut]

Gerhard made this statement:

"Jesus had NOT been buried at 6 PM, but his body at 6 PM was still hanging on the cross"

Do you realize what a ridiculous and messed up statement this is?

Reason for the erroneous Friday crucifixion date is failure of Scholars to recognize its date (Nisan 14) was determined by the Jewish lunar calendar in connection with the annual high Sabbath supported by Scripture (Exodus 12:6).

The experts, thinking the normal weekly Sabbath was Friday sundown to Saturday sundown and the first day of the week was Saturday sundown to Sunday sundown, the Passover had to be Thursday sundown to Friday sundown or Good Friday. Three days in the grave is obtainable from this arrangement, two partial days on Friday and Sunday and one full day Saturday. The problem with this arrangement, there are only two nights in the grave.

Bible commentaries completely overlook the Sabbath mentioned in John 19:31 as a "special Sabbath," not the normal weekly Sabbath. Look in your commentaries and see for yourselves, the Bible Knowledge Commentary by John F. Walvoord and Roy B. Zuck of the prestigious Dallas Theological Seminary avoid commenting on the "special Sabbath" entirely. Instead they based their date of the crucifixion on the normal Sabbath.

[ August 21, 2005, 11:14 PM: Message edited by: prophecynut ]

 

[ascund]

Greetings Gerhard

Originally posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn:
But you have failed so far to give me an answer to my question on this thread, where does the fiction of a Friday-crucifixion come from?

The Friday crucifixion hoax came from idiots in the Catholic monolith. By the year 313 when Christianity was legalized, they Catholic monolith was embroiled in a theology that repudiated Israel in eschatology. In the process, they had forgotten about Israeli customs regarding the Passover.

Being so blind to the common sense definition of "sabbath" referring to any Jewish high day, they only saw it as a reference to "saturday."

Thus they force fit one part of a day to mean the whole day and thus justified a Friday crucifixion. Idiots!

Lloyd

 

[prophecynut]

Interesting ascund, like Christmas, Easter and what ever else the RCC has corrupted.

 

[ascund]

Greetings

Originally posted by prophecynut:
Interesting ascund, like Christmas, Easter and what ever else the RCC has corrupted.

You have submitted a very apt and remarkable synthesis! The most recent corruption (1951) is either the Immaculate Conception or that Mary had no sin

I wonder how the debate topic would fare:

There is no salvific difference between the Roman Catholic Church and the Churches of Christ.

I hold that they are the same. The differences are only the exterior wrappings: stuff like church polity and ecclesiology.

May we be ever true to God's Word!
Lloyd

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
Gerhard made this statement:

"Jesus had NOT been buried at 6 PM, but his body at 6 PM was still hanging on the cross"

Do you realize what a ridiculous and messed up statement this is?

Reason for the erroneous Friday crucifixion date is failure of Scholars to recognize its date (Nisan 14) was determined by the Jewish lunar calendar in connection with the annual high Sabbath supported by Scripture (Exodus 12:6).

The experts, thinking the normal weekly Sabbath was Friday sundown to Saturday sundown and the first day of the week was Saturday sundown to Sunday sundown, the Passover had to be Thursday sundown to Friday sundown or Good Friday. Three days in the grave is obtainable from this arrangement, two partial days on Friday and Sunday and one full day Saturday. The problem with this arrangement, there are only two nights in the grave.

Bible commentaries completely overlook the Sabbath mentioned in John 19:31 as a "special Sabbath," not the normal weekly Sabbath. Look in your commentaries and see for yourselves, the Bible Knowledge Commentary by John F. Walvoord and Roy B. Zuck of the prestigious Dallas Theological Seminary avoid commenting on the "special Sabbath" entirely. Instead they based their date of the crucifixion on the normal Sabbath.

First you reject that "It had been evening already" in Mk.15:42 and Mt.27:57 before or when Joseph appeared on the scene and the Body was not taken off the cross YET. Then you just let go of this subject, and give a lengthy criticism of the date of the day referrd to in these Scriptures.
But it is obvious you paid NO attention to what I have written, because I do not hold the traditional view that does not allow for the 'PASSOVER-SABBATH' or "great / high day" according to Jn.19:31 on.
My point is, that this 'sabbath'-"high day" STARTED where one reads Jn.19:31 - it did not end.
My point again is, that the day referred to in Mk.15:42 and Mt.27:57, also STARTED and ended not, when Joseph began to undertake to obtain the Body for burial.
Here is 'my' chronology:
One: Nisan 14, Crucifixion and death on "The Preparation of the Passover (Jn.19:14) - STARTING though, with John 13:1f.
Two: Nisan 15, "Great Day (Sabbath of the Passover)", Interment - STARTING Mk.15:42, Mt.27:57.
Three: Nisan 16, Resurrection day - STARTING Lk.23:54-56, John 19:40, AFTER sunset supposed there - weekly Sabbath.
Four: Nisan 17 (third day of eating unleavened bread), day of first appearances - Sunday.
Simple; no need for extra-biblical support.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally posted by ascund:
Greetings Gerhard

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn:
But you have failed so far to give me an answer to my question on this thread, where does the fiction of a Friday-crucifixion come from?

The Friday crucifixion hoax came from idiots in the Catholic monolith. By the year 313 when Christianity was legalized, they Catholic monolith was embroiled in a theology that repudiated Israel in eschatology. In the process, they had forgotten about Israeli customs regarding the Passover.

Being so blind to the common sense definition of "sabbath" referring to any Jewish high day, they only saw it as a reference to "saturday."

Thus they force fit one part of a day to mean the whole day and thus justified a Friday crucifixion. Idiots!

Lloyd </font>[/QUOTE]Sjoe, you sound a vicious fellow! Nevertheless, You may have a point there, though I don't understand it really, because I don't know what you mean with "monolith"? I thought it meant a stone in one piece?

 

[ascund]

Greetings

Originally posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn:
you sound a vicious fellow! Nevertheless, You may have a point there, though I don't understand it really, because I don't know what you mean with "monolith"? I thought it meant a stone in one piece?

First, I'm not really vicious. It is more that I occassionally run out of tolerance with those who profess to be Bible scholars who cannot figure out what justification means. Luther put justification as the chief article by which the church and an individual stands.

Second, you have the basic definition of "monolith" down correctly. Here is the dictionary of difficult words:
"single monumental stone or pillar, especially of prehistoric orgin; any object, organization, etc. that appears uniform and uniformly unchangeable."

Why do you think people get so confused over justification?
Lloyd

 

[prophecynut]

Originally posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn First you reject that "It had been evening already" in Mk.15:42 and Mt.27:57 before or when Joseph appeared on the scene and the Body was not taken off the cross YET.

I see what the problem is, the version you are quoting is wrong. I don't know what version it is, but it's similar to Darby.

Darby Mk. 15:42
"And when it was already evening, since it was the preparation, that is, the day before the Sabbath.

NIV Mk. 15:42
"It was Preparation Day (that is, the day before the Sabbath), so as evening approached, Joseph...."

If evening had already come the Sabbath would have started instead of being Preparation Day, the day before the Sabbath. The NIV has the evening approaching on Preparation day before the Sabbath began at evening. It could not of been evening and still the Preparation day.

My point is, that this 'sabbath'-"high day" STARTED where one reads Jn.19:31 - it did not end.

NIV Jn. 19:31
"Now it was the day of Preparation and the next day was to be a special Sabbath.

The Sabbath high day did not end or just begin, it was the next day, future.

Here is 'my' chronology:
One: Nisan 14, Crucifixion and death on "The Preparation of the Passover (Jn.19:14) - STARTING though, with John 13:1f.

Nisan 14 was Wednesday sundown to Thursday sundown. Agree it was the crucifixion and Preparation day of the Sabbath. As pointed out above, Joseph appeared on the scene as evening was approaching on Preparation Day, before the Sabbath began at sundown.

wo: Nisan 15, "Great Day (Sabbath of the Passover)", Interment - STARTING Mk.15:42, Mt.27:57.

Nisan 15 - Thursday sundown to Friday sundown, the Sabbath of the Passover.

Three: Nisan 16, Resurrection day - STARTING Lk.23:54-56, John 19:40, AFTER sunset supposed there - weekly Sabbath.

Nisan 16 - Friday sundown to Saturday sundown,
cannot be Resurrection day. You have Nisan 14 as one night in the tomb, Nisan 15 as one day and the second night in the tomb and Nisan 16 as the second day. You have two nights and two days accounted for but need another day and night to make 3 each.

Four: Nisan 17 (third day of eating unleavened bread), day of first appearances - Sunday.

Nisan 17 - Saturday sundown to Sunday sundown is Resurrection Day. With this chronology there are three nights and three days in the tomb, exactly what Scripture call for.

 

[ascund]

Hey P-Nut

Interesting chronology. The sequence given by Germano: http://www.bibarch.com/Perspectives/4.3.htm#Feature and http://www.bibarch.com/Perspectives/7.1B.htm is as follows:

Sunday: Jesus enters Jerusalem on the same day that the Passover Lamb is chosen. Nissan 10 on Rabbinic Calendar (Zech 9:9, Exo 12:3)

Tues: Jesus at Passover at Essene guesthouse Nissan 14 on the Essene calendar (Nissan 13 on Rabbinic calendar).

Wed: Jesus on trial and crucifixion (Nissan 14 on Rabbinic calendar).

Thurs: Nissan 15 on Rabbinic Calendar. First of the three Passover days was an annual Sabath.

Friday: second day of feast. Women procured and prepared spices.

Saturday: thirday of feast and the weekly Sabbath. Jesus rose from the dead at sunset after a literal 72 hours.

Sunday: the first day of the week. While it was still dark, the women came to the tomb bringing their spices.

These articles are the best scholarly work I've seen.
Lloyd

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally posted by ascund:
Hey P-Nut

Interesting chronology. The sequence given by Germano: http://www.bibarch.com/Perspectives/4.3.htm#Feature and http://www.bibarch.com/Perspectives/7.1B.htm is as follows:

Sunday: Jesus enters Jerusalem on the same day that the Passover Lamb is chosen. Nissan 10 on Rabbinic Calendar (Zech 9:9, Exo 12:3)

Tues: Jesus at Passover at Essene guesthouse Nissan 14 on the Essene calendar (Nissan 13 on Rabbinic calendar).

Wed: Jesus on trial and crucifixion (Nissan 14 on Rabbinic calendar).

Thurs: Nissan 15 on Rabbinic Calendar. First of the three Passover days was an annual Sabath.

Friday: second day of feast. Women procured and prepared spices.

Saturday: thirday of feast and the weekly Sabbath. Jesus rose from the dead at sunset after a literal 72 hours.

Sunday: the first day of the week. While it was still dark, the women came to the tomb bringing their spices.

These articles are the best scholarly work I've seen.
Lloyd

Thanks for the information on the website, I'll certainly visit it!

Indeed there's a lot of similarity with 'mine'. Important point I differ with concerns the TIME OF the Resurrection "In Sabbath's-time" Mt.28:1.
Lloyd, PLEASE do read http://www.biblestudents.co.za. Unfortunately it is BULKY, so you must be prepared to patiently down-load each volume of 12, seperately. Together they are more than 3000 pages! Some direct html's are also there, and the longest one - on Galatians 4 - takes about an hour to download on an old PC like mine.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Quoting Prophecynut, "Nisan 16 - Friday sundown to Saturday sundown, cannot be Resurrection day. You have Nisan 14 as one night in the tomb, Nisan 15 as one day and the second night in the tomb and Nisan 16 as the second day. You have two nights and two days accounted for but need another day and night to make 3 each."

"You have ... one night in the tomb" ... "in the tomb" ... :
Answer:
First: WHERE does the "three days and three nights" BEGIN - WITH DYING AND DEATH, OR, "in the tomb"? I say it begins with Jesus' "hour come, now", "at the table" (Jn.13:1f) which was the START of the day of Crucifixion and death.
Two: WHAT was "in the heart of the earth"? See my previous posts! It was the DYING AND DEATH which ended with the RISING AND LIFE! It was not the body buried "in the tomb".
DYING AND DEATH starting 14 Nisan Thursday gives one of each of the "three days and three nights".

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

To Lloyd, with love, from "P-Nut" (GE),
Don't read too much into my admitting "a lot of similarity" - you will notice the absolute differences if you read that page.
You will find detailed analysis of the last week - the 'Passion-week'. There are thousands of oversights in Germano's summary!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

To Ascund (Lloyd), with love, from P-Nut (GE),
Quote: "Sunday: the first day of the week. While it was still dark, the women came to the tomb bringing their spices."
How many correct statements do you find in this statement of Germano's? I find none! How many LIES do you find in it? I can IMMEDIATELY see one: The whole statement; Two: The Gospel that says, "While it was still dark", is not the Gospel that says, "the women came to the tomb bringing their spices". The first is John; the second is Luke. Theu mean - reading them - different things (continue shortly!)

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Lie three: There is NO Gospel that uses the word "Sunday".
Lie four: "while still dark". The Greek means and says nothing but the simple: "While being early darkness still" - That was during the evening; not during the morning of daylight.
Lie four: The statement makes of the women, the same several women. But John speaks of ONE, "Mary"; while Luke speaks of SEVERAL; ETC. ETC.
HOW EASILY can a man be told ANY rubbish and he'll believe it ONLY because he WANTS to?