OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Trying to show that the pre-trib invention of John Nelson Darby is unBiblical!
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The Death of Jesus Christ
- Thread starter OldRegular
- Start date
Trying to show that the pre-trib invention of John Nelson Darby is unBiblical!
Trying to show that the pre-trib invention of John Nelson Darby is unBiblical!
That's it? That is your only goal?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
The question was answered several times over yet you continued to ask, and BTW not answer his questions either.
The original statement in the post was have these occurred for Israel,
to finish the transgression
to make an end of sins
to make reconciliation for iniquity.
to bring in everlasting righteousness.to seal up the vision and prophecy.
to anoint the most Holy.
These came in a question from this verse Dan 9:24 "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."
Notice the verse says these things would come after 70 weeks upon Daniel's people, so have these occurred upon Daniels' people and the Nation Israel in the Holy City?
These questions have not been answered!
In another thread {The Messianic Kingdom?} I posed the following questions:
Needless to say I have not yet gotten an answer!Originally Posted by OldRegular
1. Are you saying the death of Jesus Christ on the Cross accomplished NOTHING?
2. Was righteousness imputed to you because of your "faith in Jesus Christ"?
3. Is that righteousness everlasting or does it come and go?
Following is how DHK compares the effectiveness of the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ to the power of the anti-Christ. He is, in effect, saying the anti-Christ accomplished those things that only GOD can accomplish!
These events have yet to occur:
What are the events mentioned:
--to finish the transgression.
--to make an end of sins
--to make reconciliation for iniquity.
--to bring in everlasting righteousness.
--to seal up the vision and prophecy.
--to anoint a most holy place. (vs. 24)
All these events have to do with the Jewish people.
All these events will take place within that 70th week.
That above was posted by DHK on post #70 if the thread, The Messianic Kingdom.
OR said:1. Are you saying the death of Jesus Christ on the Cross accomplished NOTHING?
2. Was righteousness imputed to you because of your "faith in Jesus Christ"?
3. Is that righteousness everlasting or does it come and go?
Obviously question #1 was addressed to someone's statement. However, the answer is Christ's death accomplished Christ becoming the propitiation or means of salvation for fallen mankind. When God spiritually places a person "in Christ" they receive the reconciliation provided by Christ's death. So at any point in time following His death, (1) Christ's death provides the opportunity for salvation, and (2) for every person placed in Christ, their eternal salvation.
2. Every born anew believer when set apart in Christ undergoes the circumcision of Christ where their sin burden is removed, and they arise in Christ righteous, holy, blameless and perfect.
3. We are made eternally righteous, nothing can separate us from our right relationship with God.
The questions being answered are leading and deceptive. They assume facts not in existence.Obviously question #1 was addressed to someone's statement. However, the answer is Christ's death accomplished Christ becoming the propitiation or means of salvation for fallen mankind. When God spiritually places a person "in Christ" they receive the reconciliation provided by Christ's death. So at any point in time following His death, (1) Christ's death provides the opportunity for salvation, and (2) for every person placed in Christ, their eternal salvation.
2. Every born anew believer when set apart in Christ undergoes the circumcision of Christ where their sin burden is removed, and they arise in Christ righteous, holy, blameless and perfect.
3. We are made eternally righteous, nothing can separate us from our right relationship with God.
For example, when discussing a scripture like John 3:16, should one ask the question (after reading the verse), "Therefore, you believe Christ is coming a second time, right?"
--The question has nothing to do with the scripture quoted.
That is the line of questioning OR has pursued.
The passage:
Dan 9:24-27
(24) Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
(25) Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
(26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
(27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
His questions:
Originally Posted by OldRegular
1. Are you saying the death of Jesus Christ on the Cross accomplished NOTHING?
2. Was righteousness imputed to you because of your "faith in Jesus Christ"?
3. Is that righteousness everlasting or does it come and go?
His complaint:
The three questions have nothing to do with the passage: Dan.9:24-27.Needless to say I have not yet gotten an answer!
Daniel 9 says nothing of the accomplishments of the cross, the righteousness of Christ being imputed on the believer, etc. There is nothing in that passage that deals with those question. How does he expect an answer to his question from a passage that doesn't speak about it?
It must be understood from verse 24 that Gabriel is speaking to Daniel. He tells Daniel that the words that he is speaking to him are for his people and his city:
(24) Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
This is a prophecy that concerns the nation of Israel and has nothing to do with the benefits of the cross for the Gentiles. If that context is ignored, then the interpretation of it will be wrong every time.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Obviously question #1 was addressed to someone's statement. However, the answer is Christ's death accomplished Christ becoming the propitiation or means of salvation for fallen mankind. When God spiritually places a person "in Christ" they receive the reconciliation provided by Christ's death. So at any point in time following His death, (1) Christ's death provides the opportunity for salvation, and (2) for every person placed in Christ, their eternal salvation.
2. Every born anew believer when set apart in Christ undergoes the circumcision of Christ where their sin burden is removed, and they arise in Christ righteous, holy, blameless and perfect.
3. We are made eternally righteous, nothing can separate us from our right relationship with God.
I agree and the questions were prompted by the response immediately following your post. Pre-tribbers will admit that Jesus Christ was crucified AFTER the 69th week but that is as far as they would go. One would think that nothing in the Old Testament was written for the Gentiles. Scripture says otherwise: 2 Timothy 3:16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
GOD had believers before HE called Abraham, HE had other believers when HE called Abraham as the events around Melchizedek, priest and King of Salem, show.
It is worth noting, as I have posted on other threads, the origin of the seven year period when the anti-Christ supposedly will do what Jesus Christ could not do as claimed in the quote in post#23.
Where did this false doctrine regarding Daniel’s 70th week originate? History tells us:
The 70 weeks of Daniel
As part of the Counter Reformation, the Catholic Church commissioned Jesuit priests to write counter interpretations of Bible prophecy as a counter response to the Protestant reformation when the finger was pointed at them as being antichrist. Spanish Jesuit, Francisco Ribera proposed that the final seven years of the 70 weeks of Daniel was a future antichrist and that antichrist would bring an end to sacrifices in a rebuilt temple. This is where the supposed 7 years of tribulation comes from before the second coming of Christ. But this was manufactured prophecy, written with the sole purpose of deceiving Christians on the true identity of antichrist. When has a Bible passage ever been so abused by Satan? Attributing Daniel’s 70th week of Jesus’ baptism and crucifixion and applying it instead to antichrist is outright blasphemous.
From: {http://www.daniels70weeks.com/index.html}
The mindless meanderings of a Jesuit priest, obeying the Teaching Magisterium of Roman Catholicism, is a sorry teaching to base anything on. But that and the teaching of John Nelson Darby provide the basis for pre-trib-mythology!
I would also note Van that there are several places in the New Testament where prophecies in the OT are shown to be fulfilled in the Church. One of these was at Pentecost {Acts 2:15ff} and {Acts 15:15 ff}.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
That's it? That is your only goal?
This is a debate Forum!
That is a poor excuse to give when the passage in question specifically says it is written to the nation of Israel. Is context to be ignored completely??I agree and the questions were prompted by the response immediately following your post. Pre-tribbers will admit that Jesus Christ was crucified AFTER the 69th week but that is as far as they would go. One would think that nothing in the Old Testament was written for the Gentiles. Scripture says otherwise: 2 Timothy 3:16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
"Thy people" (the nation of Israel), and "thy city" (the holy city of Jerusalem).
The context can't get any more specific. It is not speaking about Gentiles, but about the Jews.
OR said:I would also note Van that there are several places in the New Testament where prophecies in the OT are shown to be fulfilled in the Church. One of these was at Pentecost {Acts 2:15ff} and {Acts 15:15 ff}.
Completely agree! This truth does not in the slightest conflict with progressive dispensationalism.
I would also note Van that there are several places in the New Testament where prophecies in the OT are shown to be fulfilled in the Church. One of these was at Pentecost {Acts 2:15ff} and {Acts 15:15 ff}.
Just as the Feast of Trumpets shows the Rapture!
Just as the Feast of Trumpets shows the Rapture!
Then the period of atonement leading to the Feast of Atonement in which the Jewish people were to repent:
--to finish the transgression.
--to make an end of sins
--to make reconciliation for iniquity.
--to bring in everlasting righteousness.
--to seal up the vision and prophecy.
--to anoint a most holy place. (vs. 24)
Then the feast of the Tabernacle and thus the 1000 year kingdom, all beautifully showing how God's plan will be carried out for the Redemption of all mankind as well as His fulfillment of the promises to National Israel as His people.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Then the period of atonement leading to the Feast of Atonement in which the Jewish people were to repent:
Then the feast of the Tabernacle and thus the 1000 year kingdom, all beautifully showing how God's plan will be carried out for the Redemption of all mankind as well as His fulfillment of the promises to National Israel as His people.
The moderator claimed those six conditions would be fulfilled during the seven year rule of anti-Christ. You disagreeing with him!
The answer is given in detail here.The moderator claimed those six conditions would be fulfilled during the seven year rule of anti-Christ. You disagreeing with him!
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2230473&postcount=17
Care to respond.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
The moderator claimed those six conditions would be fulfilled during the seven year rule of anti-Christ.
The answer is given in detail here.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2230473&postcount=17
Care to respond.
No they were not!
From post #70, The Messianic Kingdom
These events have yet to occur:
What are the events mentioned:
--to finish the transgression.
--to make an end of sins
--to make reconciliation for iniquity.
--to bring in everlasting righteousness.
--to seal up the vision and prophecy.
--to anoint a most holy place. (vs. 24)
All these events have to do with the Jewish people.
All these events will take place within that 70th week.
No they were not!
From post #70, The Messianic Kingdom
Originally Posted by DHK
These events have yet to occur:
What are the events mentioned:
--to finish the transgression.
--to make an end of sins
--to make reconciliation for iniquity.
--to bring in everlasting righteousness.
--to seal up the vision and prophecy.
--to anoint a most holy place. (vs. 24)
All these events have to do with the Jewish people.
All these events will take place within that 70th week.
I answered you here:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost...3&postcount=17Dan 9:24-27
(24) Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
(25) Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
(26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
(27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
First note that the Lord says to Daniel:
70 weeks are determined upon thy people and thy holy city.
--This prophecy is specific to the Jews--Daniel's "people."
--The 70 weeks are determined upon the Jews for these things to happen.
(Brenton) Seventy weeks have been determined upon thy people, and upon the holy city, for sin to be ended,
(ESV) "Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin
(ISV) Seventy weeks have been decreed concerning your people and your holy city: to restrain transgression, to put an end to sin,
The transgression and sin are the iniquities of the Jews. During the 70th week Christ (when he comes) will put an end to their transgressions and sins. He hasn't yet. They continue far worse now than they ever were at the time of Christ.
1. to finish the transgression.
2. to make an end of sins.
--The sins are still continuing. Christ will come and put an end to them, as Israel turns to Christ.
3. to make reconciliation for iniquity.
--At the end of the Tribulation and before the Millennial Kingdom Christ will come and all Israel will turn to him and be saved. They will be reconciled unto him. The passage is directed toward the Jews, not to the Gentiles.
As Paul say in Rom.11:26, "And so all Israel shall be saved."
But that has not happened yet.
4. to bring in everlasting righteousness.
--It is quite evident that imputed righteousness and everlasting righteousness are quite different.
Daniel speaks of Christ "bringing in" everlasting righteousness.
As Isaac Watts said:
Joy to the world! The Lord is come
Let earth receive her King!
Let every heart prepare Him room
He rules the world with truth and grace
And makes the nations prove
The glories of His righteousness
And wonders of His love
And wonders of His love
And wonders and wonders of His love
--The "glories of his righteousness" are everlasting and will be seen all over the world during the Millennial Kingdom. This is a time, as Watts declares, that Christ, the King, will truly be King over all the earth. But He isn't right now. Satan is the god of this world.
5. to seal up the vision and prophecy.
When Christ comes again for the Jews, near the end of that 70th week, all the prophecies concerning the Jews will be fulfilled.
That will include the many OT prophecies concerning the Millennial Kingdom, the many prophecies concerning His Second Coming, the many prophecies about "the Day of the Lord," or the Tribulation, Jacob's Trouble, etc. They will all come to a fruition at that time.
6. to anoint the most Holy.
This probably refers to the anointing of Christ as King of Kings sitting on the throne of David, as described in Dan.7:25-27. He will indeed rule over all the earth and every person will worship him. They will have no option. He will rule with a rod of iron.
Now note:
Jerusalem was destroyed by "the armies of Titus." The people or armies actually did the destruction. True? They were commanded by Titus. Titus is referred to as "the prince." "The prince that shall come" is the antecedent of the "he" in verse 27.
It is that "he" who is a foreigner, and not Christ, that will make a covenant with the Jews for seven years and then break it in the midst of those seven years by desecrating the temple. Soon after that the end will come.
Christ never made a covenant with anyone for seven years.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by OldRegular
No they were not!
From post #70, The Messianic Kingdom
Originally Posted by DHK
These events have yet to occur:
What are the events mentioned:
--to finish the transgression.
--to make an end of sins
--to make reconciliation for iniquity.
--to bring in everlasting righteousness.
--to seal up the vision and prophecy.
--to anoint a most holy place. (vs. 24)
All these events have to do with the Jewish people.
All these events will take place within that 70th week.
I answered you here:
Dan 9:24-27
(24) Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
(25) Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
(26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
(27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
First note that the Lord says to Daniel:
70 weeks are determined upon thy people and thy holy city.
--This prophecy is specific to the Jews--Daniel's "people."
--The 70 weeks are determined upon the Jews for these things to happen.
(Brenton) Seventy weeks have been determined upon thy people, and upon the holy city, for sin to be ended,
(ESV) "Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin
(ISV) Seventy weeks have been decreed concerning your people and your holy city: to restrain transgression, to put an end to sin,
The transgression and sin are the iniquities of the Jews. During the 70th week Christ (when he comes) will put an end to their transgressions and sins. He hasn't yet. They continue far worse now than they ever were at the time of Christ.
1. to finish the transgression.
2. to make an end of sins.
--The sins are still continuing. Christ will come and put an end to them, as Israel turns to Christ.
3. to make reconciliation for iniquity.
--At the end of the Tribulation and before the Millennial Kingdom Christ will come and all Israel will turn to him and be saved. They will be reconciled unto him. The passage is directed toward the Jews, not to the Gentiles.
As Paul say in Rom.11:26, "And so all Israel shall be saved."
But that has not happened yet.
4. to bring in everlasting righteousness.
--It is quite evident that imputed righteousness and everlasting righteousness are quite different.
Daniel speaks of Christ "bringing in" everlasting righteousness.
As Isaac Watts said:
Joy to the world! The Lord is come
Let earth receive her King!
Let every heart prepare Him room
He rules the world with truth and grace
And makes the nations prove
The glories of His righteousness
And wonders of His love
And wonders of His love
And wonders and wonders of His love
--The "glories of his righteousness" are everlasting and will be seen all over the world during the Millennial Kingdom. This is a time, as Watts declares, that Christ, the King, will truly be King over all the earth. But He isn't right now. Satan is the god of this world.
5. to seal up the vision and prophecy.
When Christ comes again for the Jews, near the end of that 70th week, all the prophecies concerning the Jews will be fulfilled.
That will include the many OT prophecies concerning the Millennial Kingdom, the many prophecies concerning His Second Coming, the many prophecies about "the Day of the Lord," or the Tribulation, Jacob's Trouble, etc. They will all come to a fruition at that time.
6. to anoint the most Holy.
This probably refers to the anointing of Christ as King of Kings sitting on the throne of David, as described in Dan.7:25-27. He will indeed rule over all the earth and every person will worship him. They will have no option. He will rule with a rod of iron.
Now note:
Jerusalem was destroyed by "the armies of Titus." The people or armies actually did the destruction. True? They were commanded by Titus. Titus is referred to as "the prince." "The prince that shall come" is the antecedent of the "he" in verse 27.
It is that "he" who is a foreigner, and not Christ, that will make a covenant with the Jews for seven years and then break it in the midst of those seven years by desecrating the temple. Soon after that the end will come.
Christ never made a covenant with anyone for seven years.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost...3&postcount=17
But you say that all these wonderful things happened during the 70th week while the super anti-Christ was reigning! See your post #70 from The Messianic Kingdom above.
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The 70th week is the week or seven year period of Tribulation.But you say that all these wonderful things happened during the 70th week while the super anti-Christ was reigning! See your post #70 from The Messianic Kingdom above.
Right at the end of that week Christ will come and defeat the armies of the enemies of Israel at the battle of Armageddon. Israel will turn to their Messiah, "And so all Israel shall be saved."
So to be more specific what happens when?
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
to finish the transgression,
and to make an end of sins,
and to make reconciliation for iniquity,
--It would seem that these three would be right at the end of the 70th week when Christ comes.
to bring in everlasting righteousness,
and to seal up the vision and prophecy,
and to anoint the most Holy.
--And immediately after the 70th week it would appear that these three happen at the beginning of Millennial Kingdom that follows shortly after the Tribulation. After all, that is when Christ will be anointed and will bring in everlasting righteousness, not in the Tribulation.
The events are still rather close to each other since the first three are at the end of the Tribulation and the Kingdom will start soon after.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
The 70th week is the week or seven year period of Tribulation.
Right at the end of that week Christ will come and defeat the armies of the enemies of Israel at the battle of Armageddon. Israel will turn to their Messiah, "And so all Israel shall be saved."
So to be more specific what happens when?
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
to finish the transgression,
and to make an end of sins,
and to make reconciliation for iniquity,
--It would seem that these three would be right at the end of the 70th week when Christ comes.
to bring in everlasting righteousness,
and to seal up the vision and prophecy,
and to anoint the most Holy.
--And immediately after the 70th week it would appear that these three happen at the beginning of Millennial Kingdom that follows shortly after the Tribulation. After all, that is when Christ will be anointed and will bring in everlasting righteousness, not in the Tribulation.
The events are still rather close to each other since the first three are at the end of the Tribulation and the Kingdom will start soon after.
Repeating myself:
But you say that all these wonderful things happened during the 70th week while the super anti-Christ was reigning!
From post #70, The Messianic Kingdom
Originally Posted by DHK
These events have yet to occur:
What are the events mentioned:
--to finish the transgression.
--to make an end of sins
--to make reconciliation for iniquity.
--to bring in everlasting righteousness.
--to seal up the vision and prophecy.
--to anoint a most holy place. (vs. 24)
All these events have to do with the Jewish people.
All these events will take place within that 70th week.
The antichrist is found here:But you say that all these wonderful things happened during the 70th week while the super anti-Christ was reigning! See your post #70 from The Messianic Kingdom above.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Chapter 19 describes in detail the Coming of Christ at the end of the Tribulation or the 70th Week.
Look here:
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
--The remnant means the rest of the enemies of Israel.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
--Then a thousand year reign will start.
In Chapter 19, Christ came for Israel and defeated the enemies of Israel.
In Chapter 20, Christ sets up His Kingdom.
Perhaps, prior to this I said these things a bit hastily or meaning that they happened toward the end of the 70th week as they do. At least three of them do. The other 3 happen shortly thereafter. Either way they are still future and all are closely related to the Coming of Christ which is in the 70th week, and that is the point I was making.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Repeating myself:
Originally Posted by OldRegular
But you say that all these wonderful things happened during the 70th week while the super anti-Christ was reigning!
From post #70, The Messianic Kingdom
Originally Posted by DHK
These events have yet to occur:
What are the events mentioned:
--to finish the transgression.
--to make an end of sins
--to make reconciliation for iniquity.
--to bring in everlasting righteousness.
--to seal up the vision and prophecy.
--to anoint a most holy place. (vs. 24)
All these events have to do with the Jewish people.
All these events will take place within that 70th week.