The Democrats on Health Care

[carpro]

I will gladly pay more in taxes in order to have "universal health care". Health care is not something that should be available only for the wealthy; and at the present time, that is exactly where we are headed.

OK, go ahead.

You don't have to wait for the rest of us.

Make your check out to the U.S. Treasury. Let me know how well you get by on 30% of your income.:thumbs:

 

[Hope of Glory]

In a dream world, maybe! Some of us have conditions that the, "pay as you go" mentality does not work.

We need universal health care and we are not going to stop pushing it until we get it accomplished

Well, with the examples set forth by those who practice universal health care, those of you with "conditions" won't need health care for very long. Then, the survivors you leave behind will still have to deal with it.

Why do you want to do that to everyone? Did we make you angry?:laugh:

 

[Hope of Glory]

OK, go ahead.

You don't have to wait for the rest of us.

Make your check out to the U.S. Treasury. Let me know how well you get by on 30% of your income.:thumbs:

Don't forget, that if this fiasco is pushed off on us, then no one will be able to afford food, shelter, and clothing.

Big Daddy will take care of us, though. Don't you think, comrade Carpro?

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

The other aspect of NHC is the potential loss of doctors. When hospitals and doctors are forced to accept meager rates for their sevices then they will more than likely find other types of employment and students will be less likely to pursue this field. Isnt that so libs?

 

[Bro. Curtis]

No. You then assign people to be doctors. Scary stuff.

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

No. You then assign people to be doctors. Scary stuff.

Oh you mean like communism. Which fits right in with NHC.

 

[Dragoon68]

In a dream world, maybe! Some of us have conditions that the, "pay as you go" mentality does not work.

We need universal health care and we are not going to stop pushing it until we get it accomplished

All of us have "conditions" or will develop them. We're all going to die of illness, accident, or malice. We may or may not be able to treat the cause and delay the inevitable. We may not be able to aford it or there may just not be a way to fix it. Government isn't going to save us.

It is not the responsibility of the government to provide for our medical needs. It is our responsibility to provide for ourselves, our families, and, through charity, those in need. We are rapidly giving up that responsibility to government and specifically the federal government. We are asking for more of what has been proved does not work. We're even making it more difficult for those who don't want to be dependents of government to avoid becoming such helpless numbered subjects.

Government historically has done a poor job of handling our money - look no further than the social insecurity for that - and it has a way of politicizing and corrupting every process in touches in order to buy votes from those who will benefit from forcing the rest to pay their way. The process is very wasteful and the handling fees are enormous. The process is self serving and never shrinks but, rather, always grows larger like a cancer. It always comes with strings attached to conform to the ways deemed acceptable to bureaucrats far away from reality. Abuse by fellow citizens - especially those who demand a free ride - is a major problem. There's a tendency to assign benefits by demographics - whether location, culture, economic status, or something else - rather than merit and then to make those people de facto wards of the state.

When the money and the choices are in the hands of the people to take care of themselves then they tend to be more responsible for their own actions or, if not, they simply don't enjoy the rewards of not doing so. Certainly when people do all the right things problems can still fall upon them. Sometimes they're just not able to handle it alone. That's where family, friends, and neighbors should help if they willingly choose to do so but not by force of law.

When charity is in the hands of the people who choose to give their money, time, or materials then decisions can be based on merit. The receiver no longer has the right to demand an entitlement under the power of law. The giver can even attach requirements to the gift if they desire such as the gift being help towards self help. The owner of the resources gets to decide. There are plenty of people generous enough to help those in need. These days many often don't even feel a need to give to charity since the government is already extracting taxes to solve everyone's problems including those involving poor judgment, laziness, carelessness, or misadventure.

It is the responsibility of government to assure a system of justice that gives people recourse if wrong is done to them so they don't have to take matters into their own hands. The government should help keep the system honest but should not provide the system itself. They could perhaps focus on eliminating the ridiculous litigation that drives up the cost of insurance and reduces the willingness to make reasonable judgments and take reasonable risks. That itself would be a big step forward that would enable a lot more to be done for a lot less cost.

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

The government doesnt own anything nor does it do anything. The government is a tool of the people. It is a poor tool when overused. It is its most effective when it is implemented in very few cases. Everytime it is implemented further freedoms are taken away from people. UHC is a thief and a stealer of freedom.

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

You, among others, claim a "universal" [government] operation and funding of a particular facet of life importance is preferable to many organizations providing the particular service in different ways and different levels.

Where did I "claim" this?

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

The government is the most inefficient way to manage money. Healthcare costs will sore to unprecidented levels with decreased services. It will be filled with political red tape and unnecessary wait times for care. This is proven, this is history, and this is a fact. Universal health care will never happen in the US.

So, are you suggesting that we should simply live with the disaster we currently enjoy? You aren't really offering any alternatives.

 

[Terry_Herrington]

So, are you suggesting that we should simply live with the disaster we currently enjoy? You aren't really offering any alternatives.

They don't have a clue, BIR.

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Look to the Fraser Institute in Canada. They track how long it takes for Canadians to get health care. For chemotherapy, the average wait is 4 months. But, the UK has them beat: The average cancer patient is dead before receiving their first treatment. (OK, that's a bit of hypberbole, but in the UK, there is an alarming number of people who die from treatable cancers because their average waiting time is 8 months.)

Why do you want our health care system to suffer so by being in the hands of Big Daddy?

Here is an article from Forbes I read last year:

http://www.forbes.com/forbeslife/health/feeds/hscout/2006/05/30/hscout532992.html

From the article:
The new study appears to reinforce the findings of a Rand Corporation report issued earlier this month that showed a similar health care gap between the U.S. system and that of Great Britain, which, like Canada, has a universal health care system -- subsidized by tax dollars.

We all know that the Rand Corporation are a bunch of LIBERALS, right?

Here is an article referencing a Harvard Medical School survey:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/healthnews.php?newsid=44315

From the article:
A Harvard Medical School survey has found that Canadians are healthier than Americans, have better health-care access than Americans and are generally more satisfied with their medical services than their southern neighbours.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/healthnews.php?newsid=42717

From this article:
A large study, which looked at the health of middle class, middle-aged, white residents in both the USA and Britain found that the British enjoy much better health than their American counterparts. Even though the USA has a much higher income per capita than the UK, about 25% higher, the British are far ahead when it comes to the health of its residents.

Wonder how the non-middle-aged-white residents did vs. their British counterparts.....

Does this mean that national healthcare is the answer? I don't know, and I have read other articles from the Rand Corporation that don't necessarily back up the national healthcare argument either.

But aren't you the least bit curious as to why they are seemingly healthier? Do you think that the current system is working?

Regards,
BiR

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

So, are you suggesting that we should simply live with the disaster we currently enjoy? You aren't really offering any alternatives.

UHC isn't an alternative either. The problem by and large stems from poor life choices. There are those who suffer from circumstances not of their own doing but those folks never stay down very long. The children that are without health care suffer from parental mistakes. Let's invest in peoples lives and quit making victims out of every dificult circumstance. People will be able to live off of their own backs instead of the backs of others.

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

UHC isn't an alternative either.

So, should we simply keep the system we currently have?

The problem by and large stems from poor life choices. There are those who suffer from circumstances not of their own doing but those folks never stay down very long. The children that are without health care suffer from parental mistakes.

So, they should continue to "suffer" despite these "parental mistakes?"
Interesting....

Let's invest in peoples lives and quit making victims out of every dificult circumstance. People will be able to live off of their own backs instead of the backs of others.

So, how do we "invest in peoples lives?" [sic] What about those children that "suffer from parental mistakes?" Should they find jobs and "live off their own backs instead of the backs of others?"

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

So, should we simply keep the system we currently have?

Sure. But we do need to get the insurance companies and lawsuits handled.

So, they should continue to "suffer" despite these "parental mistakes?"
Interesting....

We already have programs for children.

So, how do we "invest in peoples lives?" [sic] What about those children that "suffer from parental mistakes?" Should they find jobs and "live off their own backs instead of the backs of others?"

again the childrens insurance issues are already addressed.

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Sure. But we do need to get the insurance companies and lawsuits handled.

Huh?
Please explain this statement.

We already have programs for children.

So national healthcare is working?

again the childrens insurance issues are already addressed.

So, are you in support of national healthcare?

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

Huh?
Please explain this statement.

I'm sorry It though most everyone was up to date on the crisis this country has with lawsuits against doctors based on people looking for a pay out rather than of any real malpractice which has become quite extensive.

So national healthcare is working?

Huh?

So, are you in support of national healthcare?

I am not sure why this question would even come up. we do not have UHC nor would I support it. I am against all programs related to socialism.

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

I'm sorry It though most everyone was up to date on the crisis this country has with lawsuits against doctors based on people looking for a pay out rather than of any real malpractice which has become quite extensive.

So, that is the real reason behind our failing system? By any chance, do you have any data on this problem?

Huh?

What else is it?

I am not sure why this question would even come up. we do not have UHC nor would I support it. I am against all programs related to socialism.

But we have a system to protect those aforementioned children. Is that not a government healthcare program?

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

So, that is the real reason behind our failing system? By any chance, do you have any data on this problem?

http://www.power-of-attorneys.com/lawyer_a_day.htm


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8048785/

http://headaches.about.com/cs/advocacy/a/lamus_cala.htm

Their web site state these "Fast Facts - Symptoms of Lawsuit Abuse:"

• Lawsuit abuse affects all Americans on different levels.
• 80% of Americans say personal injury attorneys take too much of their clients' winnings.
• 76% of Americans believe medical liability lawsuits threaten access to quality healthcare for families.
• 74% of Americans describe medical liability issue as crisis or major problem.
• By 61% to 22% margin, Americans say lawsuits against doctors result in wealthy lawyers rather than improved quality of care for patients.
• Lawsuit costs passed on to consumers add up to nearly $721 per year for every person in America today.
• Because of litigation fears, 79% of doctors said they had ordered more tests than they would based only on professional judgment of what is medically needed.
• It takes at least a year to resolve most lawsuits, and delays of three to five years are not uncommon. Unfortunately, injured people with legitimate claims can wait years before their cases go to trial.
• An estimated $50 billion per year is spent on unnecessary test procedures designed only to guard doctors and hospitals against malpractice claims.
• Almost half of the money spent by physician insurers goes towards defending cases that ultimately are closed without compensation paid to the claimant.

What else is it?

It is not UHC and even as it is we need to get away from it.

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

• Lawsuit abuse affects all Americans on different levels.

Any data on this?

• 80% of Americans say personal injury attorneys take too much of their clients' winnings.

Opinion.

• 76% of Americans believe medical liability lawsuits threaten access to quality healthcare for families.

Opinion.

• 74% of Americans describe medical liability issue as crisis or major problem.

Opinion

• By 61% to 22% margin, Americans say lawsuits against doctors result in wealthy lawyers rather than improved quality of care for patients.

Opinion.

• Lawsuit costs passed on to consumers add up to nearly $721 per year for every person in America today.

Did you do the math on this number?

• Because of litigation fears, 79% of doctors said they had ordered more tests than they would based only on professional judgment of what is medically needed.

So, the doctors are admitting to unnecessary procedures?

• It takes at least a year to resolve most lawsuits, and delays of three to five years are not uncommon. Unfortunately, injured people with legitimate claims can wait years before their cases go to trial.

Source?

• An estimated $50 billion per year is spent on unnecessary test procedures designed only to guard doctors and hospitals against malpractice claims.

Source?

• Almost half of the money spent by physician insurers goes towards defending cases that ultimately are closed without compensation paid to the claimant.

Source?

It is not UHC and even as it is we need to get away from it.

Whoa, hold on: go back and read what you wrote before you offered this.