The difference between Calvinists and Armenians (as I see it)

I say He sees now what we choose for He is Omnipresent and infinite. He is everlasting to everlasting and when we believe He sees now and calls us, predestinates us to be conformed to the Image of His Son, (Christ like), justifies us (by the blood of Jesus) and Glorifies which is to come but God can see already us Glorified. You do err in reading my post. I say He sees us NOW believe.

Thank you Tom;
I believe "to foresee" is now for God sees all at once for He is everlasting to everlasting. I beleive He sees us now, He sees us before the foundation of the world, He sees us in our mother's womb and He sees us glorified. I hope that explains my belief. I don't know if its Arminiam or not, I am an Old Regular Baptist.

 

According to that Tom, He would be just as powerless to not accept one of the foreknown.

 

Brother Bob, I'm not acquainted with a single Baptist, who would describe himeself as Arminian. That's why call them simply non-Calvinists. Of course there are the General Baptists other kinds of Baptist which are Arminian to the core--including believing in falling from grace.

The average Baptist knows only that Arminians believe in works salvation and falling from grace, and since they don't believe that, they aren't Arminian. So, Brother Bob, you're a non-Calvinist.

 

Um, I may have to re-read that several times to make sure I understand it, but for now, I think I agree with you.

Help me out here folks, do I agree with Brother Bob or not?

 

I sure am a non-calvinist and I don't believe in falling from Grace and if "believing" is works then I believe in works for Apostle Paul who said we are saved by Grace through faith but not of works if you read the whole chapter he was talking about the works of the Law. Paul also told a man in Acts: when asked what must I do to be saved? Paul, the same one in Eph: said not of works told this man "if thou believeth that Jesus it The Christ thou shall be saved. Again, I say if believing is works then I believe what Paul said and Jesus said "you must believe". I also believe Salvation is of the Lord and not man.

 

Amen, Brother Bob, right on the money.

 

I have known a couple Baptists who have called themselves Arminians quite willingly ( no pun intended ) . There is a Greater Zion Missionary Baptist pastor from a metropolitian area in particular who has claimed the Arminian name quite proudly . We had differences on Romans 8 and 9 . ( understatement of the year ) . There is quite a story behind this , but I will not go into it at this point . I say he was being honest by calling himself an Arminian -- of course he did not really know the true Calvinistic stance .

 

1 coin 2 sides

Sorry to Jump in on this so late , but I think most of you are seeing two different sides of the same coin.

Gods sovereignty and the freewill of Man are both clearly taught in Scripture.


Election:

John 6:65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."


John 15:16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.


Freewill:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.


Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!



If Scripture is without error and Scripture teaches both, then both must be true, correct?


After sin was introduced, and God entered the garden looking for Adam, what did Adam do?

Genesis 3:10 So he said, "I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself."

He hid, and Man has been hiding from God ever since.

Revelation 6:16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

We will not come to God on our own, even though we have the freewill to do so. Rather we run from God and the acknowledgement of our sins.

God desires that all of us would come to him, but none of us will come on our own. So God does not choose who will go to hell, we choose hell ourselves. The problem is without God calling us and convicting us of our sins, we will continue in them, thus rejecting God and deserving hell.

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.

The existence of the World and all that is in it is clear evidence of God, yet we will not come to him without him initiating the call by placing conviction and guilt on our hearts. Therefore God Chooses some of us, for his own Divine reasons and through no merit of our own, to bring to him.


Matthew 20:16 So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen."


Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen."

Psalms 65:4 Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You, That he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Of Your holy temple.


This is the reason that Man is responsible if he goes to hell, but God deserves all the credit for salvation.



:type:

 

Scripture supporting my position above

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


John 6:35 And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."



John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.


John 6:65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."


John 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.



John 15:16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.



Romans 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.



Romans 9:14-24 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


Ephesians 1:3-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him.
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.



2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.



1 Peter 2:4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.



Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.


Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.


Matthew 20:16 So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen."


Psalms 65:4 Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You, That he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Of Your holy temple.

 

Welcome to the BB pressure cooker, FB :thumbs:

 

Thanks

Appreciate the welcome webdog.

 

You've totally eliminated man's responsibiltiy and the need for faith. This sounds like hyper calvinism, complete with God causing man's sin.

While this is NOT what Brother Bob said...or meant, I do agree that SOME arminians believe this way. All you have to do is walk into any catholic church Sunday (or Saturday night ) to see this. This is RARELY the position anticalvinists have, though.

 

Which is why I am not Calvinist, Dale-C, though many here would like to pin the label hyper-Calvinist on me.

I do not believe that there are any more lost souls out there. If there are, those are the unelect. Paul mentioned about them, lost souls, only once:

The gospel will not ever be hid from those for whom it is intended, and these are those whom God elected from eternity past, and for whom Christ shed His blood because that is what the gospel is for: to bring life and immortality to light.

Whenever and wherever the gospel is proclaimed, those ordained to eternal life
will recognize the Master's voice and believe (Acts 13:48).

But what of those who do not hear the gospel ? The good news is still effective to them: That Christ came to save sinners. And whoever they are, wherever they are, if they are one of God's own, Christ saved and redeemed them already, not the gospel. God used no means to save His people save the blood of Christ.

I believe that to teach that there are still lost souls out there that needs saving is just the same as saying that Christ's death and resurrection meant nothing at all.

No offense meant.

 

Hello Ferron Brimstone, there's a lot of good scripture coverage in your posts and I think you're right on target or at least very close. Man is a sinner by his own free will and can only be saved by God's free will. However, when we take another layer off the proverbial "onion", we see that although we use the term "free" in describing man's will, man's will is not truly free in the sense that it is bound to his underlying motives, inclinations, nature, and desires. In that sense there really is no such thing as free will, for all decisions are coerced by outside forces (outside of the will, that is) such as the ones I mentioned and also social forces. The human will is, in fact, BOUND to sin. "We were born free" was the claim of the Pharisees, but Jesus said "If the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed".

The accusation that calvinism makes people into robots can be easily turned around, for the only way that the will can be truly free in the libertarian sense, if for it to be unattached to those motives which sway it. Only a robot with a pre-programmed logic table can make decisions which are completely uncoerced. But that's the way freewillers present human beings to us - as entities which are capable of moral and spiritual decisions which take place in a void which is free from other influences.

The propensity to sin can only be conquered by the intervention of supernatural forces. This is called being born again. How can a man be born when he is old? You can not tell, but, "the wind (pneuma, spirit) blows where it wills". Those that are "of God" (John 1:13)(elect) are delivered by Him to the Son, and the Son delivers the word which they receive and believe unto salvation. This is the order of salvation. The Father decrees it, the Son procures it, and the Spirit executes it.

John 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

 

I see this quite often without Scriptural support. Can you provide it for us? If we are "bound" by our desires and inclinations...the majority of us wouldn't go to work every day. At any rate, man does desire immortality, and it's because God has put it within us (Ecc. 3:11). The majority just think that you can sin all you want while good "works" outweighing the bad will get us to Heaven. I have never heard anyone say that they don't want to go to Heaven....so are they "bound" by that desire and inclination also?

 

For what it's worth, I happen to agree with Pinoybaptist on that point, that God regenerates apart from means and the Gospel salvation is a conscious awakening, or a knowledgeable conversion, to the blessings of Christ as presented in the preaching of the cross. I don't think that's hyperism. As far as I'm concerned, hyperism consists only in the opposition to indiscrimate preaching and witnessing that some people follow.

One thing this clearly shows is the even we calvinists are not "robots" for we all have our own opinions on the finer points. But never, never, would we accept the theory of synergism which makes God dependent on man.

 

freewill

I agree with you 100% J.D.. I used the term freewill in the context I did because it was relative to the arguments that were being persued. As you said, there really isn't any such thing as freewill because of the influence of sin. But I chose not to engage that aspect in order to focus on the primary theme.

 

Your desire to get money is greater than your desire to not work. So is mine. Also, you live in a society that shames laziness. Maybe you work because you have a sense of responsibility to your family, community, and country, but that sense of responsibility is not produce in a void - it is tied to social forces. Your morallity comes about from social forces. If those forces were removed you would certainly follow the lower motives and stop working. That's what many in our country have done.

And what if you say "I work as unto the Lord" as a form of worship, well that certainly should be the primary motive for all believers to work. However, the question concerns the source for the motive. I say it comes from God for the desire to worship God can only originate from Him. If you have it, it is because God has worked in you both to do and to will of His good pleasure.

All people do not have the desire to worship God. If you don't believe it, I've got some old crusties on my beat I'd like for you to meet. So if there are some people that have no desire to worship God, can you say of those people that God has worked in them both to do and to will of His good pleasure?

Your question provides its own answer. Look at it. "The majority just think that you can sin all you want", but yet you say those same people want to go to heaven. Would they just sin all they want if they truly believed that there is a heaven and a hell? They may draw nigh with their lips, but their hearts are far from God. And this "I have never heard anyone say that they don't want to go to Heaven" - notice the word say. Can a person that loves sin and hates God really want to go to heaven? Oh, don't get me wrong, no one wants to burn in hell, but some will not turn from sin, which they love, to avoid it. They lack the ability to turn without God's intervention.

 

I know a lot of water has passed under the bridge in this discussion, so I hope no one will mind someone new jumping in?

I try to keep an open mind on doctrinal arguments that are not clearly presented in the Bible. I try to do this especially in the sometimes heated debate over Arminianism and Calvinism. In heat of debate it is easy to ignore or neglect the plain statements of the Bible, or to believe that we have the ability to fully understand the ways of God (Romans 11:33-36). What is really tragic is when we put more importance on being right than being loving. I'd rather have a 100% wrong understanding and be filled with God's love toward everyone than to be 100% right and have to answer to God for being a hateful person. That can happen when we put the emphasis on ourselves and our need to be right (which I always need, personally, even now as I write this) instead of putting our focus on God where it belongs. It is not as important to have the answers to all matters as it is to be faithful to the Lord and His Word. I personally cannot resolve completely in my own mind the notion of the Sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man. The seem like two parrallel lines that never meet. All I know is that the Bible teaches me not to lean to my own understanding. It also tells me that the wisdom from above will be loving and kind toward all, seeking the unity of the believers, not trying to find ways to divide and separate from one another.

In difficult doctrinal matters, I wish all of us, especially myself, could have gracious attitudes and humble hearts, desiring most of all to please Him who has called us to serve Him in the body of Christ. I confront myself all the time. When a particular position on the Scriptures causes me to become argumentative, legalistic, and divisive, I have to question the validity of my position. At that point, it doesn't matter if I accidentally turned out to be right.

I'm not saying this in response to anything in particular here. I say it to myself mainly. As you might guess, I'm a non-Calvinist non-Arminian. :smilewinkgrin:

 

Yes.

You addded the "hates God". People who love sin love themselves, you cannot say they necessarily hate God.

This would apply to the above, also. Man's desire to please self outweighs man's desire to please God. Doesn't mean they hate God. In regards to your point that we choose to go to work instead of stay home and have fun, the "true desire" is not going to work, but to spend time with family, golf, etc. If man truly were "bound" as you say to what they truly desire, you wouldn't go to work at all regardless of what we think about society, and a need for money.