The difference between Calvinists and Armenians (as I see it)

The problem with your reasoning is that you are thinking backward. You are judging that if doesn't "offer" grace to everyone, then it must seal their fate, therefore God would be unfair if He didn't offer it to everyone.

But that's not how the Bible describes our condition. Our condition is that we're all guilty deserve nothing. God is under no obligation to "offer" grace to anyone, ever. Therefore when God does dispense grace, He does it as He pleases, and there is nothing unfair about it. Pink responds to this better than I can:

 

I didn't even mention fair, but it sure seals their fate!

 

Man works because he needs to eat. If food is freely provided he will stop working and start playing. In any case, man's decision to work or not is coerced by his desires. I don't see anything too hard to understand about that.

I didn't add "hates God", the bible did. Do I need to look up the references?

All desires are true desires. All of them influence the decisions we make. No decision is made in a void of desires. Therefore, there is no such thing as libertarian free will.

 

Now you are adding an "if" to the requirements. YOu have said that man is in bondage to his desires, and then go on to make the above statment refuting that he actually is in bondage to those desires....but can choose based on an "if". That's not being in bondage to your desires, the point you try to make in stating man cannot choose God. You leave off the "if" there. I don't see how you cannot see it.

 

All decisions are choices between available options, or else a decision would not be necessary. But all of those decisions are in accordance with one's desires. Can you name me one decision you ever made that was contrary to your desires? No. You might have chosen one desire over another one, but you can not release your decision from whichever desire coerced you into it.

 

Have to go, will check in later.

 

Then how can you tell me that man is in bondage to sin...and cannot choose to come to Christ? If a desire is a choice between "available options", who are we to say that a sinner will not choose Christ?

One decision I made contrary to a desire? Just recently. Having the opportunity to go to an amusement park with friends because I had already agreed to watch my niece. This decision was contrary to my desires.

 

I agree. Let us see to whom the grace of God is offered.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

 

Hello Blammo,

This maybe a idea. When using verses of the Bible, know the meaning of the words used in the verse as it is used thoughout the Bible. That's number one.

2nd..Use each verse in context.

Both of these would be good rules to follow.

 

That would all be fine and good except your logic follows the frame of reference of time and space, not eternity, since time and space are the only ways man can logically think.

 

So, I been gone but seems to me you have fell back into the God looking into the future thing again when God sees all in the beginning, now and in the end.
We are saved by Grace, through faith and not of our selves but it is a gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast for we are His workmanship.
Ephesians, chapter 2
8": For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

"9": Not of works, lest any man should boast.

"10": For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

"11": Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
"14": For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

"15": Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

So here Apostle Paul is saying we are not saved by the works of the Law.


Acts, chapter 16

29": Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

"30": And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

"31": And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

So here we see the same Apostle Paul says we do need the works of "believing". So let us rightly divide the word of truth. It takes "faith" in Eph: and it takes "belief" in Acts and both spoken by the same Apostle Paul.


Romans, chapter 8

"28": And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

"29": For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

"30": Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

So, according to Paul we must "believe" to be saved and God seeing all things at all times sees us believe, calls us, predestinates us to be conformed to the image of His Son (Christ like), justifies us (by the blood of Jesus) and Glorifies us, which we have not seen as of yet but God has seen for He is from everlasting to everlasting. Being that Gods see all the time all things you can say before the foundation of the world, now or the end. Doesn't make any difference with God. He saw you in your mother's womb and saw then you either believe or disbelieve.


Ecc 3:11 He hath made every [thing] beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

 

No, you didn't make a decision that was contrary to your desires. Rather, you made a decision that was in complete accord with your greatest desire at the time. Your desire to maintain your good relationship with your niece and her parents, or your love for them, was greater than your desire to go to the park.

You ask "who are we to say that a sinner will not choose Christ?" Look at your own words. SINNER. Choose Christ? You tell me, how can a SINNER choose Christ?

Man is born with a sin-nature. When man is born again of God he has two natures. Do you dispute this? If not, then tell me, how can a man that has one nature, the sin-nature, just "decide" to have a new nature? He can not and will not apart from the supernatural intervention of God. God reaches into the heart of his elect at a time appointed and gives them a new heart, changing their wills, infusing the new nature, shedding the love of God abroad in their hearts, and awaking faith and repentance in them through the Gospel. Salvation is of God.

 

God never willed any man to sin
God never willed any man to believe
God will all me to be able to choose good or evil
God never willed any man to choose evil
God never willed any man to choose good
But God did see and does see what you chose.
God sees your death even though it is in the future for you but not for God.

Almost all the Bible says you must have faith or you must believe and some of you say we can't. Even Apostle Paul who you fall back on all the time said "if you believe that Jesus is the Christ, you shall be saved".

 

BTW the "option" of believing is available to the non-elect, but they can not and will not believe due to their own sinful decision. God does not block the door of salvation to any man. But every man passes it by until God acts upon those he has chosen to seek the door of salvation.

 

Hello Bob,

One at a time...here we go....

1st...what is sin?

 

Transgression of the Law
unbelief
1 John, chapter 3

Chapter
Book


"4": Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

 

Man can not of his own free will just decide to desire that which he does not desire, or believe that which he does not believe, or love that which he does not love.

 

I agree..

now look at this list from 1 cor.

You see that one word.."whoremongers" in verse 9? In this context..would you say whoremongers is a sin?

 

Why not He chose evil? God looked down and it repented Him He made man for his heart was evil.

 

Yes I would