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The difference between Calvinists and Armenians (as I see it)

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npetreley

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webdog said:
I don't know, not offering man an opportunity for salvation...or giving him the "regeneration" (as you guys call it) needed to come, pretty much seals their fate. Sounds like "force" to me.

The problem with your reasoning is that you are thinking backward. You are judging that if doesn't "offer" grace to everyone, then it must seal their fate, therefore God would be unfair if He didn't offer it to everyone.

But that's not how the Bible describes our condition. Our condition is that we're all guilty deserve nothing. God is under no obligation to "offer" grace to anyone, ever. Therefore when God does dispense grace, He does it as He pleases, and there is nothing unfair about it. Pink responds to this better than I can:

God is sovereign in the exercise of His grace. This of necessity, for grace is favor shown to the undeserving, yea, to the Hell-deserving. Grace is the antithesis of justice. Justice demands the impartial enforcement of law. Justice requires that each shall receive his legitimate due, neither more nor less. Justice bestows no favors and is no respecter of persons. Justice, as such, shows no pity and knows no mercy. But after justice has been fully satisfied, grace flows forth. Divine grace is not exercised at the expense of justice, but "grace reigns through righteousness" (Rom. 5:21), and if grace "reigns", then is grace sovereign.

Grace has been defined as the unmerited favor of God; and if unmerited, then none can claim it as their inalienable right. If grace is unearned and undeserved, then none are entitled to it. If grace is a gift, then none can demand it. Therefore, as salvation is by grace, the free gift of God, then He bestows it on whom He pleases. Because salvation is by grace, the very chief of sinners is not beyond the reach of Divine mercy. Because salvation is by grace, boasting is excluded and God gets all the glory.

The sovereign exercise of grace is illustrated on nearly every page of Scripture. The Gentiles are left to walk in their own ways, while Israel becomes the covenant people of Jehovah. Ishmael the firstborn is cast out comparatively unblessed, while Isaac the son of his parents’ old age is made the child of promise. Esau the generous-hearted and forgiving-spirited is denied the blessing, though he sought it carefully with tears, while the worm Jacob receives the inheritance and is fashioned into a vessel of honor. So in the New Testament. Divine truth is hidden from the wise and prudent, but is revealed to babes. The Pharisees and Sadducees are left to go their own way, while publicans and harlots are drawn by the cords of love.
 

webdog

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You are judging that if doesn't "offer" grace to everyone, then it must seal their fate, therefore God would be unfair if He didn't offer it to everyone.
I didn't even mention fair, but it sure seals their fate!
 

J.D.

Active Member
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webdog said:
Yes.

You addded the "hates God". People who love sin love themselves, you cannot say they necessarily hate God.

This would apply to the above, also. Man's desire to please self outweighs man's desire to please God. Doesn't mean they hate God. In regards to your point that we choose to go to work instead of stay home and have fun, the "true desire" is not going to work, but to spend time with family, golf, etc. If man truly were "bound" as you say to what they truly desire, you wouldn't go to work at all regardless of what we think about society, and a need for money.

Man works because he needs to eat. If food is freely provided he will stop working and start playing. In any case, man's decision to work or not is coerced by his desires. I don't see anything too hard to understand about that.

I didn't add "hates God", the bible did. Do I need to look up the references?

All desires are true desires. All of them influence the decisions we make. No decision is made in a void of desires. Therefore, there is no such thing as libertarian free will.
 

webdog

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Man works because he needs to eat. If food is freely provided he will stop working and start playing. In any case, man's decision to work or not is coerced by his desires. I don't see anything too hard to understand about that.
Now you are adding an "if" to the requirements. YOu have said that man is in bondage to his desires, and then go on to make the above statment refuting that he actually is in bondage to those desires....but can choose based on an "if". That's not being in bondage to your desires, the point you try to make in stating man cannot choose God. You leave off the "if" there. I don't see how you cannot see it.
 

J.D.

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All decisions are choices between available options, or else a decision would not be necessary. But all of those decisions are in accordance with one's desires. Can you name me one decision you ever made that was contrary to your desires? No. You might have chosen one desire over another one, but you can not release your decision from whichever desire coerced you into it.
 

webdog

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Then how can you tell me that man is in bondage to sin...and cannot choose to come to Christ? If a desire is a choice between "available options", who are we to say that a sinner will not choose Christ?

One decision I made contrary to a desire? Just recently. Having the opportunity to go to an amusement park with friends because I had already agreed to watch my niece. This decision was contrary to my desires.
 

Blammo

New Member
npetreley said:
But that's not how the Bible describes our condition. Our condition is that we're all guilty deserve nothing. God is under no obligation to "offer" grace to anyone, ever. Therefore when God does dispense grace, He does it as He pleases, and there is nothing unfair about it.

I agree. Let us see to whom the grace of God is offered.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
Blammo said:
I agree. Let us see to whom the grace of God is offered.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Hello Blammo,

This maybe a idea. When using verses of the Bible, know the meaning of the words used in the verse as it is used thoughout the Bible. That's number one.

2nd..Use each verse in context.

Both of these would be good rules to follow.

:cool:
 

saturneptune

New Member
Pipedude said:
The essence of Arminianism is the doctrine that Christ died for everyone, and not only for the elect. Historically it went under the name "general redemption," distinguishing it from the doctrine of particular redemption.

How this works itself out is a theological conundrum. It involves the question of volition itself: how can there be such a thing? How can God, for instance, decide one thing or another if he is eternal? Eternality would seem to lead logically to a static being, totally contrary to the one presented in Scripture.

Man, bearing the image of God, also has this mysterious quality called volition and the corresponding moral responsibility, unlike the animal kingdom. (No one considers a dog immoral if he kills a squirrel.)

One goal of theology is to explain one thing without contradicting another. Arminians start with general redemption. We can sincerely tell a bum on the street "God loves you and Christ died for you." We see a God in scripture who acts in space and time, makes decisions, and responds (as he sovereignly chooses) to man's actions. Because we stress these things, we wind up being anticalvinists.

There. That clears it up. Now we won't need to discuss Calvinism and Arminianism any more.
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:smilewinkgrin:

That would all be fine and good except your logic follows the frame of reference of time and space, not eternity, since time and space are the only ways man can logically think.
 

Brother Bob

New Member
So, I been gone but seems to me you have fell back into the God looking into the future thing again when God sees all in the beginning, now and in the end.
We are saved by Grace, through faith and not of our selves but it is a gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast for we are His workmanship.
Ephesians, chapter 2
8": For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

"9": Not of works, lest any man should boast.

"10": For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

"11": Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
"14": For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

"15": Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

So here Apostle Paul is saying we are not saved by the works of the Law.


Acts, chapter 16

29": Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

"30": And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

"31": And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

So here we see the same Apostle Paul says we do need the works of "believing". So let us rightly divide the word of truth. It takes "faith" in Eph: and it takes "belief" in Acts and both spoken by the same Apostle Paul.


Romans, chapter 8

"28": And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

"29": For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

"30": Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

So, according to Paul we must "believe" to be saved and God seeing all things at all times sees us believe, calls us, predestinates us to be conformed to the image of His Son (Christ like), justifies us (by the blood of Jesus) and Glorifies us, which we have not seen as of yet but God has seen for He is from everlasting to everlasting. Being that Gods see all the time all things you can say before the foundation of the world, now or the end. Doesn't make any difference with God. He saw you in your mother's womb and saw then you either believe or disbelieve.


Ecc 3:11 He hath made every [thing] beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
 
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J.D.

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webdog said:
Then how can you tell me that man is in bondage to sin...and cannot choose to come to Christ? If a desire is a choice between "available options", who are we to say that a sinner will not choose Christ?

One decision I made contrary to a desire? Just recently. Having the opportunity to go to an amusement park with friends because I had already agreed to watch my niece. This decision was contrary to my desires.

No, you didn't make a decision that was contrary to your desires. Rather, you made a decision that was in complete accord with your greatest desire at the time. Your desire to maintain your good relationship with your niece and her parents, or your love for them, was greater than your desire to go to the park.

You ask "who are we to say that a sinner will not choose Christ?" Look at your own words. SINNER. Choose Christ? You tell me, how can a SINNER choose Christ?

Man is born with a sin-nature. When man is born again of God he has two natures. Do you dispute this? If not, then tell me, how can a man that has one nature, the sin-nature, just "decide" to have a new nature? He can not and will not apart from the supernatural intervention of God. God reaches into the heart of his elect at a time appointed and gives them a new heart, changing their wills, infusing the new nature, shedding the love of God abroad in their hearts, and awaking faith and repentance in them through the Gospel. Salvation is of God.
 

Brother Bob

New Member
God never willed any man to sin
God never willed any man to believe
God will all me to be able to choose good or evil
God never willed any man to choose evil
God never willed any man to choose good
But God did see and does see what you chose.
God sees your death even though it is in the future for you but not for God.

Almost all the Bible says you must have faith or you must believe and some of you say we can't. Even Apostle Paul who you fall back on all the time said "if you believe that Jesus is the Christ, you shall be saved".
 

J.D.

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BTW the "option" of believing is available to the non-elect, but they can not and will not believe due to their own sinful decision. God does not block the door of salvation to any man. But every man passes it by until God acts upon those he has chosen to seek the door of salvation.
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
Brother Bob said:
God never willed any man to sin
God never willed any man to believe
God will all me to be able to choose good or evil
God never willed any man to choose evil
God never willed any man to choose good
But God did see and does see what you chose.
God sees your death even though it is in the future for you but not for God.

Almost all the Bible says you must have faith or you must believe and some of you say we can't. Even Apostle Paul who you fall back on all the time said "if you believe that Jesus is the Christ, you shall be saved".
Hello Bob,

One at a time...here we go....

1st...what is sin?
 

Brother Bob

New Member
Transgression of the Law
unbelief
1 John, chapter 3

Chapter
Book


"4": Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
 
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J.D.

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Man can not of his own free will just decide to desire that which he does not desire, or believe that which he does not believe, or love that which he does not love.
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
Brother Bob said:
Transgression of the Law
unbelief
1 John, chapter 3

Chapter
Book


"4": Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

I agree..

now look at this list from 1 cor.

8but ye -- ye do injustice, and ye defraud, and these -- brethren!

9have ye not known that the unrighteous the reign of God shall not inherit? be not led astray; neither whoremongers, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor sodomites,

10nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, the reign of God shall inherit.


You see that one word.."whoremongers" in verse 9? In this context..would you say whoremongers is a sin?
 
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