The difference between Calvinists and Armenians (as I see it)

[Jarthur001]

No, I don't know why. Why don't you explain it? :thumbs:

Were you born saved?

I was never born saved. No one is. To be saved..you must be unsaved.

I have been born again.

You only gave one part of propitiation. But so you do not think I'm twisting words..Why have atonement as it relates to propitiation, and what happened in the atonement? Did sheeding of the blood have to take place for salvation, or was it just a picture of salvation and really did nothing?

Also...Ransom... what does that mean to you?

 

[Blammo]

James?

What does this mean?

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

How about this one....?

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

 

[Jarthur001]

If you do not understand the meaning..thats fine. I just ask in your own words to give a meaning, so that we can talk about it.

Again...Ransom...what does it mean?

propitiation..what does it mean? Dont just use another word in plcae of. Give detail. Like..I'm sure you know this is a pegan word. right? Tell me why you think John used a pegan word here. When you understand all about the word...it helps.

I may add...many do not like the word. I like it. Some thank atonement should only be used. I see you do not feel this way..for you have used it many times. So..in your own words...give detail ...in and out of Gods Word what it means.


also...do not forget ransom.
In other words....

The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many. (Matthew 20:28)

Not the word 'Many"...that would be to easy. Ransom. what does it mean?



Thanks

 

[Blammo]

James -

Propitiation - atonement
Ransom - redemption price

There ya go...

Now will you answer my question?

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

 

[Brother Bob]

If so...I need to stop posting. In the old "no limit" layout they had before this I use to write BOOKS...if needed..and webdog can say amen to this.

I'm wording..and say the same thing 3 times.

Oh well..others will get over it.

And no one reads it when you do James.

 

[mnw]

The Difference is Easy to See

If salvation and everything that leads us to Christ, or does not lead us to Christ, is based upon what God has already decided then none of us are responsible for what we believe.

The difference between the "Soveriegnly-Elected-I'm-Responsible-for-nothing-its-all-God's-will" crowd and the rest, is that we were simply predestined to be different...

:thumbsup:

 

[Jarthur001]

James -

Propitiation - atonement
Ransom - redemption price

There ya go...

Now will you answer my question?

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Nice long wording there. Don't give it to much thought.



Propitiation means "appeasement"...atonement is the means which God is appeased. Do you agree?

 

[Jarthur001]

James -

Ransom - redemption price

There ya go...

deep...

why is it I have to pull words out of you??

Ransom....redemption price...that tells me knowing. Tell it as if I have never read the Bible. What does ransom mean?

 

[Blammo]

deep...

why is it I have to pull words out of you??

Ransom....redemption price...that tells me knowing. Tell it as if I have never read the Bible. What does ransom mean?

Why is it you think you have to play games?
Why is it you answer questions with questions?
Why is it you never make a lick of sense?
Why is it you spend all your time on here standing up for a man's doctrine?
Why is it you act paranoid when someone makes a joke?
Why is it you said you were never posting on here again?
Why is it you are still here?

There ya go. More questions for you to NOT answer. :thumbs:

 

[Brother Bob]

Ransom
465. antallagma an-tal'-ag-mah from a compound of 473 and 236; an equivalent or ransom:--in exchange.

487. antilutron an-til'-oo-tron from 473 and 3083; a redemption-price:--ransom.

629. apolutrosis ap-ol-oo'-tro-sis from a compound of 575 and 3083; (the act) ransom in full, i.e. (figuratively) riddance, or (specially) Christian salvation:--deliverance, redemption.

1805. exagorazo ex-ag-or-ad'-zo from 1537 and 59; to buy up, i.e. ransom; figuratively, to rescue from loss (improve opportunity):--redeem.

3083. lutron loo'-tron from 3089; something to loosen with, i.e. a redemption price (figuratively, atonement):--ransom.

3084. lutroo loo-tro'-o from 3083; to ransom (literally or figuratively):--redeem.

Atonement;

2434. hilasmos hil-as-mos' atonement, i.e. (concretely) an expiator:--propitiation.

2643. katallage kat-al-lag-ay' from 2644; exchange (figuratively, adjustment), i.e. restoration to (the divine) favor:--atonement, reconciliation(-ing).

3083. lutron loo'-tron from 3089; something to loosen with, i.e. a redemption price (figuratively, atonement):--ransom.

3521. nesteia nace-ti'-ah from 3522; abstinence (from lack of food, or voluntary and religious); specially, the fast of the Day of Atonement:-- fast(-ing).

4716. stauros stow-ros' from the base of 2476; a stake or post (as set upright), i.e. (specially), a pole or cross (as an instrument of capital punishment); figuratively, exposure to death, i.e. self-denial; by implication, the atonement of Christ:--cross.

Propitiation;

2434. hilasmos hil-as-mos' atonement, i.e. (concretely) an expiator:--propitiation.

2435. hilasterion hil-as-tay'-ree-on neuter of a derivative of 2433; an expiatory (place or thing), i.e. (concretely) an atoning victim, or (specially) the lid of the Ark (in the Temple):--mercyseat, propitiation.

 

[IFB Mole]

I know Calvinists, "High" Calvinists, 3-pointers, 4-pointers, non-calvinists and pretty much everything inbetween to the "flag waving Arminian".

Based on my observation the difference "where the rubber meets the road" has to do primarily with choice. Specifically can man or does man have the ability, power and strength to reject the Gospel message once convicted by the Holy Spirit and drawn by God? Is the Grace of God "irresistable"?

No one denies that God the Holy Spirit is necessary in the converstion of a sinner through the gospel message, but can man say "NO", once he is convicted and drawn? To me THAT is the bottomline issue.

I simply can't harmonize with Scripture that God regenerates a sinner FIRST and THEN he beleives by grace through faith. I see illustration after illustration in the Bible where men BELIEVE when convicted by God and other areas where men REJECT when convicted by God.

T = is man TOTALLY depraved or ABSOLUTELY depraved or is there a godly light in man that lights all men in the world?
U = is election CONDITIONAL on faith or UNCONDITIONAL by God's good pleasure of his will?
L = was the atonement EFFICIENT to believers but SUFFICIENT for all or LIMITED only for the elect
I = (most difficult for me) is the free gift of Salvation by Grace a gift that a person can say NO to, or is it IMPOSSIBLE to say NO to
P = Based on Hebrews 11, can a person who was saved by believing then loose his slavation by unbelieving or will ALL converts persevere to the end?

I understand man's will is in bondage to sin, but man's will is part of his soul, NOT his spirit and the Bible is very clear that man is a spiritual creation, created in God's image and though he is spiritually dead to God, he is NOT spritually dead to sin and wickedness, that's why an unsaved person will suffer CONSCIOUSLY in hell. That is their "dead" spirit will suffer in hell. So clearly an unconverted man's spirit is dead unto God, but it is NOT a corpse, for if it was, how could a corpse suffer punishment?

Anyway, getting abit off topic - for me the difference seems that Cal's believe God predetermines all events precisely - even a sinners converstion and the non-Cals beleive God FOREKNOWS all things and does convict a sinner but does not COERCE a sinner into believing or rejecting. God authors salvation by Holy Spirit conviction, he finishes salvation by giving eternal life and in between though, is OUR FAITH. God convicts - man either believes by faith or rejects - then God regenerates the sinner and bestows a new nature and life eternal. God is the AUTHOR and FINISHER of OUR faith.

Can a sinner once under God drawinga nd conviction say NO and does God regenerate BEFORE man believes by Grace through faith?

 

[Jarthur001]

Why is it you think you have to play games?
Why is it you answer questions with questions?
Why is it you never make a lick of sense?
Why is it you spend all your time on here standing up for a man's doctrine?
Why is it you act paranoid when someone makes a joke?
Why is it you said you were never posting on here again?
Why is it you are still here?

There ya go. More questions for you to NOT answer. :thumbs:

I rest may case. Go to school...read a book...study the Bible.
Then come talk with me.

You posted a verse..and don't even know what it means.

 

[Brother Bob]

This seems pretty close IFB Mole;

Luke, chapter 9
"59": And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.

"60": Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

"61": And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.

"62": And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.


Matthew, chapter 6

"24": No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

 

[npetreley]

So, you walk in a schoolyard filled with children and you pick out 10 and give them an ice cream cone in front of all the others and you call that being just and fair, that is the kind of God you say we have if we are lucky enough in your theory to receive it?

Straw man. Sinners aren't children in a schoolyard, and salvation isn't God handing out ice cream cones. There's so much wrong with this analogy that it isn't worth my time to rebut it.

 

[Jarthur001]

I know Calvinists, "High" Calvinists, 3-pointers, 4-pointers, non-calvinists and pretty much everything inbetween to the "flag waving Arminian".

Based on my observation the difference "where the rubber meets the road" has to do primarily with choice. Specifically can man or does man have the ability, power and strength to reject the Gospel message once convicted by the Holy Spirit and drawn by God? Is the Grace of God "irresistable"?

No one denies that God the Holy Spirit is necessary in the converstion of a sinner through the gospel message, but can man say "NO", once he is convicted and drawn? To me THAT is the bottomline issue.

I simply can't harmonize with Scripture that God regenerates a sinner FIRST and THEN he beleives by grace through faith. I see illustration after illustration in the Bible where men BELIEVE when convicted by God and other areas where men REJECT when convicted by God.

T = is man TOTALLY depraved or ABSOLUTELY depraved or is there a godly light in man that lights all men in the world?
U = is election CONDITIONAL on faith or UNCONDITIONAL by God's good pleasure of his will?
L = was the atonement EFFICIENT to believers but SUFFICIENT for all or LIMITED only for the elect
I = (most difficult for me) is the free gift of Salvation by Grace a gift that a person can say NO to, or is it IMPOSSIBLE to say NO to
P = Based on Hebrews 11, can a person who was saved by believing then loose his slavation by unbelieving or will ALL converts persevere to the end?

I understand man's will is in bondage to sin, but man's will is part of his soul, NOT his spirit and the Bible is very clear that man is a spiritual creation, created in God's image and though he is spiritually dead to God, he is NOT spritually dead to sin and wickedness, that's why an unsaved person will suffer CONSCIOUSLY in hell. That is their "dead" spirit will suffer in hell. So clearly an unconverted man's spirit is dead unto God, but it is NOT a corpse, for if it was, how could a corpse suffer punishment?

Anyway, getting abit off topic - for me the difference seems that Cal's believe God predetermines all events precisely - even a sinners converstion and the non-Cals beleive God FOREKNOWS all things and does convict a sinner but does not COERCE a sinner into believing or rejecting. God authors salvation by Holy Spirit conviction, he finishes salvation by giving eternal life and in between though, is OUR FAITH. God convicts - man either believes by faith or rejects - then God regenerates the sinner and bestows a new nature and life eternal. God is the AUTHOR and FINISHER of OUR faith.

Can a sinner once under God drawinga nd conviction say NO and does God regenerate BEFORE man believes by Grace through faith?

Good post..I respect your views.

 

[Brother Bob]

Npet;
Sinners aren't children in a schoolyard, and salvation isn't God handing out ice cream cones.

True but it sure hits home doesn't it?

 

[npetreley]

True but it sure hits home doesn't it?

No, it doesn't. You only think it does because you designed the straw man to touch emotions. If you had any kind of a real clue what grace is, you'd see how your analogy was totally inappropriate.

 

[Brother Bob]

Tell me the difference between picking 10 children and picking saved before the world without belief or anything? I know already what you are picking them for and the reward or suffering is different.
Please, peace

 

[Jarthur001]

Tell me the difference between picking 10 children and picking saved before the world without belief or anything?
Please, peace

Gods will..

 

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
Tell me the difference between picking 10 children and picking saved before the world without belief or anything?
Please, peace
Gods will..

So, you are saying God is the same as the man who gave 10 children ice cream and let the rest look on? I mean it was the Man's will to do so.