The difference between Calvinists and Armenians (as I see it)

[webdog]

Has anyone ever heard of the word...context?

...point being...

 

[npetreley]

Tell me the difference between picking 10 children and picking saved before the world without belief or anything?
Please, peace

If you're serious, then I have to assume you're beyond reach with respect to understanding grace. But I'll go through the motions anyway. Here's an appropriate footnote to the quote from Pink:

An esteemed friend who kindly read through this book in its manuscript form, and to whom we are indebted for a number of excellent suggestions, has pointed out that, grace is something more than “unmerited favor.” To feed a tramp who calls on me is “unmerited favor,” but it is scarcely grace. But suppose that after rob*bing me I should feed this starving tramp—that would be “grace.” Grace, then, is favor shown where there is positive de-merit in the one receiving it.

So if you want your children analogy to me more accurate, it would be more like God entering the schoolyard and all the children run up and kick Him and call Him names and try to kill Him and steal His ice cream. God had predetermined that He would change the hearts of a few of the children to realize that what they were doing was wrong. Having new hearts, these few come to God and confess that they are undeserving of anything, let alone ice cream, and apologize. He brings these children into His family and gives them ice cream and more. The rest may still want some ice cream, but they are still in their sins and don't want it His way. They'd still rather mock and kill God to get it.

 

[Jarthur001]

So, you are saying God is the same as the man who gave 10 children ice cream and let the rest look on? I mean it was the Man's will to do so.

God can do as He wills at any time, to who ever He wants.

God places Kings on the throne.
God removes Kings.
God raises Leaders to say no to God.
God lets satan test men.
God places hooks in the jaws of nations and pulls them down to where they need to be.
God will makes it rain, when some pray it will stop.
God stops rain, when some pray it will .
God choose to have you born as Bob in the USA..where you heard Gods word...and not Wan in China in the middle of unbelievers.
God had Wan born in China among unbelievers.
God can do anything at anytime.

God is so powerful that He could have made you I hour ago with thoughts as if you were born and lived 67 years and you not even know it.

 

[Jarthur001]

...point being...

hate means hate in romans 9.

 

[webdog]

God can do anything at anytime.

...He can do anything but give man a choice to freely accept or reject His Free Gift.

 

[webdog]

hate means hate in romans 9.

...then it is you that does not understand the context.

edit: Were we discussing Romans 9? I'm really confused on here today...

 

[Brother Bob]

So if you want your children analogy to me more accurate, it would be more like God entering the schoolyard and all the children run up and kick Him and call Him names and try to kill Him and steal His ice cream. God had predetermined that He would change the hearts of a few of the children to realize that what they were doing was wrong. Having new hearts, these few come to God and confess that they are undeserving of anything, let alone ice cream, and apologize. He brings these children into His family and gives them ice cream and more. The rest may still want some ice cream, but they are still in their sins and don't want it His way. They'd still rather mock and kill God to get it.

So, you say God predetermined "which" children He would change their hearts to realize they were doing wrong. So that would be a God with a respect of persons such as the ones He prechosen for they were all guilty and those He chose had done nothing different than those He wouldn't give any Ice Cream so what difference would it make that He prechosen them. He still picked out 10 or a few and gave them ice cream and the others looked on. I don't believe in a God with respect of persons. Now, lets say this God could be in all places at all times and He predetermined that any of this children could realize they were doing wrong and this God was right there when this few realized they had done wrong so he called them and gave them ice cream. What you think about that Npet?

 

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
So, you are saying God is the same as the man who gave 10 children ice cream and let the rest look on? I mean it was the Man's will to do so.
God can do as He wills at any time, to who ever He wants.

God places Kings on the throne.
God removes Kings.
God raises Leaders to say no to God.
God lets satan test men.
God places hooks in the jaws of nations and pulls them down to where they need to be.
God will makes it rain, when some pray it will stop.
God stops rain, when some pray it will .
God choose to have you born as Bob in the USA..where you heard Gods word...and not Wan in China in the middle of unbelievers.
God had Wan born in China among unbelievers.
God can do anything at anytime.

God is so powerful that He could have made you I hour ago with thoughts as if you were born and lived 67 years and you not even know it.

Is there a point to all of this James?

 

[Jarthur001]

...then it is you that does not understand the context.

edit: Were we discussing Romans 9? I'm really confused on here today...

If I confuse anyone..i confuse myself.

No it was to the meaning of hate..from this link.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=817938&postcount=93

where you posted a verse in matt...with another meaning then romans 1...and..and..yayay..yo34.&* %...now I'm confused again too.

anyway..hate..as all other words take on the context..matt means one thing...romans 1, and 9 many other things.

Now..if you understand that...please tell me..cuz i don't.

 

[Jarthur001]

Is there a point to all of this James?

yes..i am saying God can choose to have you born and hear His word..without you asking to be born where you were. And Wan can be born to not hear His word..without him ever knowing of the true God. And....yes both are fair.

 

[Brother Bob]

yes..i am saying God can choose to have you born and hear His word..without you asking to be born where you were. And Wan can be born to not hear His word..without him ever knowing of the true God. And....yes both are fair.

Do you believe in the angel in Heaven having the everylasting Gospel to preach to them that do dwell on the earth?

Do you believe there is a Spirit in man the inspiration of God almight that giveth him understanding?

Do you believe the Grace of God which bringeth Salvation hath appeared unto all men?

Do you believe that the Lord said "go ye not from house to house saying know ye the Lord for they shall know me from the least unto the greatest.

Do you honestly believe that the saved will all come from this area?

Do you believe they will come from every nation, kindred and tongue?

come on James, peace

 

[npetreley]

So, you say God predetermined "which" children He would change their hearts to realize they were doing wrong. So that would be a God with a respect of persons

This is a typical free-willer's misuse of what it means to be a respecter of persons. A respecter of persons means to choose someone based on what man considers worthy. A respecter of persons means, "I chose this person because he's rich, etc.". But what does the Bible say? It says things like "before they were born or did anything good or bad, He chose..." It says things like "God chose the weak things of the world to shame the wise". So while I have no idea why God chose one person over another, the only clues we're given are instances where God chose people either for unfathomable reasons (before they were born and had a chance to do good or bad), or because He has a purpose in mind (he chose weak people to shame the wise). You can twist that into being a respecter of persons, but then your argument is against God, not me.

Now, lets say this God could be in all places at all times and He predetermined that any of this children could realize they were doing wrong and this God was right there when this few realized they had done wrong so he called them and gave them ice cream. What you think about that Npet?

I think you're making up your own Bible and ignoring what's written in the real one.

 

[webdog]

A respecter of persons means to choose someone based on what man considers worthy. A respecter of persons means, "I chose this person because he's rich, etc.".

Since no man's worthy...how is that NOT being a respecter of persons?

The Bible also tells us that God is "fair" and "just"...in terms that we can understand as being fair and just.

 

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
Now, lets say this God could be in all places at all times and He predetermined that any of this children could realize they were doing wrong and this God was right there when this few realized they had done wrong so he called them and gave them ice cream. What you think about that Npet?

I think you're making up your own Bible and ignoring what's written in the real one.

You don't believe God is Omnipresence?

This is a typical free-willer's misuse of what it means to be a respecter of persons. A respecter of persons means to choose someone based on what man considers worthy. A respecter of persons means, "I chose this person because he's rich, etc.". But what does the Bible say? It says things like "before they were born or did anything good or bad, He chose..." It says things like "God chose the weak things of the world to shame the wise". So while I have no idea why God chose one person over another, the only clues we're given are instances where God chose people either for unfathomable reasons (before they were born and had a chance to do good or bad), or because He has a purpose in mind (he chose weak people to shame the wise). You can twist that into being a respecter of persons, but then your argument is against God, not me.

come on Npet; Respect of person could be for anything and you know it.

Again, don't you believe in a God from everlasting to everlasting?

 

[Jarthur001]

Do you believe in the angel in Heaven having the everylasting Gospel to preach to them that do dwell on the earth?

Yes..but how can they hear without a preacher? I do not know about you, But I had a preacher..more then one...a radio program..a mother to tell me the gospel...a father to tell me the gospel...a sunday school teacher...a bible school teacher. I heard it on TV...i had people come to my door...i was given tracks. Wan got nothing but the law wrote on His heart. How about you...did you get more grace the Wan?

Do you believe there is a Spirit in man the inspiration of God almight that giveth him understanding?

Yes....if He hears the word. How can he hear without a preacher?

Do you believe the Grace of God which bringeth Salvation hath appeared unto all men?

The law was wrote on all mens heart. Some have more then that...do they not? Is it fair? yes...its Gods way.

Do you believe that the Lord said "go ye not from house to house saying know ye the Lord for they shall know me from the least unto the greatest.

yes...but not all hear..now do they?

Do you honestly believe that the saved will all come from this area?

no..i never said that. Some are born In NYC and never heard. My girls have spent 5+ summers in NYC...handing out tracks..and sharing Gods word. Each year they run into some that have NEVER heard. Right here in the USA!! Why? Why has God not given them a home in your HOUSE Bob..so they would know the good news?

come on James,

I have gone Bob. I have shared. I KNOW. Some still have never heard. Have you been to the mission field? If so..you will know this. You cannot take pride in grace. God placed you where you are. Not YOU.



peace[/QUOTE]

 

[npetreley]

You don't believe God is Omnipresence?

Bob, you're on this kick now about how God is outside of time and therefore can see in advance who believes and then chooses them on that basis. You've been cranking this tune over and over again in all the threads now because you think you finally found a loophole that allows you to uphold free-will.

What you fail to see is that, as russell55 pointed out, the BIBLE says that God upholds all creation by His power. As Jesus said, not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from His will. NOTHING happens apart from His will. We have NOTHING unless God gives it to us. So there is nothing for God to look into the future to find, because if it's there, it's because God put it there. That's what the Bible says. All God would have to do to make history turn out differently (and therefore change who believes and who doesn't) is tweak a few parameters and, bam, a whole new outcome.

Now, you don't want to believe the Bible. You've made up a whole new religion (although it's not new at all, it's as ancient as every other perversion of the Bible) and you're grinding away at it, probably to convince yourself it's true. I seem to recall that you said in one of these threads that when you made your so-called decision for Christ, you didn't actually feel saved. Maybe there's a reason for that. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but it's something you might want to give some more thought to take your mind off this barrel organ tune you keep grinding.

 

[webdog]

Bob, you're on this kick now about how God is outside of time and therefore can see in advance who believes and then chooses them on that basis. You've been cranking this tune over and over again in all the threads now because you think you finally found a loophole that allows you to uphold free-will.

What you fail to see is that, as russell55 pointed out, the BIBLE says that God upholds all creation by His power. As Jesus said, not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from His will. NOTHING happens apart from His will. We have NOTHING unless God gives it to us. So there is nothing for God to look into the future to find, because if it's there, it's because God put it there. That's what the Bible says. All God would have to do to make history turn out differently (and therefore change who believes and who doesn't) is tweak a few parameters and, bam, a whole new outcome.

Now, you don't want to believe the Bible. You've made up a whole new religion (although it's not new at all, it's as ancient as every other perversion of the Bible) and you're grinding away at it, probably to convince yourself it's true. I seem to recall that you said in one of these threads that when you made your so-called decision for Christ, you didn't actually feel saved. Maybe there's a reason for that. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but it's something you might want to give some more thought to take your mind off this barrel organ tune you keep grinding.

You are way out of line... :tear:

 

[webdog]

yes...but not all hear..now do they?

Based on Romans 1 and Ecclesiastes 3:11, I lean towards "yes". You say no, but that cannot be stated as fact.

Yes..but how can they hear without a preacher?

Revelation 14:6 tells us that the angel is the preacher. Saul wasn't saved by hearing a preacher on the road to Damascus. So right there we know that evangelism isn't solely done by humans.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello npetreley,

Bob, you're on this kick now about how God is outside of time and therefore can see in advance who believes and then chooses them on that basis. You've been cranking this tune over and over again in all the threads now because you think you finally found a loophole that allows you to uphold free-will.

Its really no loophole as you know. many have shot this down on here and books have been wrote about it for nearly 200 years since McCabe came up with this idea. Time goes by..and the other side thinks othes have forgotten about it...or they find it as if it is a new idea...and it starts all over. This short posting does not give to a good debate on it, for they change focus. One time God is NOW..next God is later...the next time God is in time...next He is out of time. If they really believed in the NOW...it would be hyper-Calvinism. They can't seem to see this.

 

[Jarthur001]

Revelation 14:6 tells us that the angel is the preacher. Saul wasn't saved by hearing a preacher on the road to Damascus. So right there we know that evangelism isn't solely done by humans.

Thats right..Paul was hit in the head..for he was not looking for God...now was he? He was CHOOSEN by God...can i have a amen???