The Difference?

RSR noted:

Bro. Glen pretty well covered it in his post, but I would add that we believe is a consistent God -- unchanging if you will. We don't believe God made one provision for infants, another for mentally deficient people, and another for those of adult age with sound reasoning facilities. This would be like the commonly referred to "age of accountability." I have yet to have anyone show me from scriptures where that comes from. So, we believe in salvation by grace alone. Period. We have been accused of not advocating repentance because of this stand. We see it a bit differently. We believe God gives eternal life to whom He will and then one repents, not one repents and then one gets eternal life. There is a great deal of difference. We believe it is possible that one might be given eternal life in infancy and not repent until they fully understood the ramifications of sin. We also tend not to make a production about repentance. (I don't mean to offend, and realize that statement might be offensive, but can't think of another way to phrase it at the moment.) We believe that our walk with God is exactly that, a walk with God, and it matters little what anyone else thinks about it. (That isn't the best way to phrase that thought either, but hopefully that conveys the idea).

Hope it helps.

Jeff

 

I came out of an SBC church three years ago (had been going to one all my life), and I am in an Indy Fundy Church now.

They are association-oriented with a percentage of monthly offerings going to the association.

I guess that is the only generalization I can make, though, because most of the churches are different.

There is a rift in the SBC right now, with the liberal wing joining a pseudo-denomination called Cooperative Baptist Fellowship.

Do you have any specific questions about the SBC?

 

Primative Baptists also don't believe in instrumental music, mission boards, Sunday schools, and theological seminaries.

How about microphones in service, I don't think they were in the early church either.

 

RSR wrote:

RSR

The answer to your question, "is whether Primitive Baptists believe that God calls His elect with or without the preaching of the gospel." would be that we believe that it is possible that he does. For example, an infant who cannot comprehend the spoken/written gospel who dies -- we believe that all such are the elect -- least I do. They, we believe, have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit. The same would apply to the mentally incompetent. I think we must take this position to be consistent with scripture.

As to whether or not God has an elect, who are adult, and mentally competent, who have not heard/read the gospel I cannot say. I think it is certainly possible that he has elected some of them to eternal life. Do you want a rehash of the scriptures to back up that point of view? I can do it, just will take a bit of time to put it together.

A story told to me as true, may explain it better. A minister who held that a sinner had to respond to the gospel to achieve eternal salvation was in a conversation with a Primitive Baptist minister. The gospel regenerationist objected to our theology -- which is not uncommon. The Primitive Baptist asked how infants who died in infancy received eternal life. The gospel regenerationists stated that God made an exception for them. The Primitive Baptist then asked about the mentally deficient -- the gospel regenerationists stated that God had made an exception for them as well. What the Primitive Baptist minister pointed out, correctly in our view, is that there is no exception clause in the scriptures -- that salvation is either entirely of God or a hit or miss proposition.

Yes, I am aware of scriptures that would seem to point a different way - that would support a gospel regenerationists position, However, we would believe that an unchanging, sovereign God is consistent, and that to be consistent a soveriegn, unchanging God would be consistent. I am also aware of the theory of the age of accountability, but I can't find any support in the written word for such a notion.

Am I as clear as mud now?

Jeff

 

The reason I don't need a sound system is that I'm not a quiet speaker... And I'm not a quiet singer... I have enough projection in my voice to fill our church and then some. I have been honing my set of pipes for 35 years and when I lead a song accapella I control the song and tempo. Brethren follow me as I set the mood and tone and I'm not bragging just stating facts. I was raised up in church singing next to my father who was also a song leader since I was knee high to a grasshopper... I guess you can say it's in our blood... Born to lead and sing the songs of Zion!

I'm exercising now on the 1st Sunday of every month and open the services for Elder Amos and fill in when our minister is unable to fill his appointment. I guess you can say our preachers are homegrown at least most of the ones I met were... Maybe Brother Jeff will comment on that... I guess you can say it runs in the family!... Brother Glen Of The Primitive Baptist Brethren

[ December 19, 2002, 09:43 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

 

Primitive Baptists' stand on instruments - Instruments were not used in the first churches and are not mandated for use in the New Testament. The difference between a microphone and a musical instrument is quite simple. A microphone does not add to the service, it simply allows for the preacher to be heard. An instrument adds to the quality of the music, making it pleasing to men's ears. That is not the purpose of lifting up psalms unto the Lord. They are supposed to be pleasing to His ears, not ours. This is also the reason PB's don't have youth groups, Sunday School, etc. The apostles did not tell the early church to use any of them to attract members, so we don't either. I hope I didn't step on anyone's toes. I just wanted to explain our position the way I see it. IMO, I don't remember God ever blessing His people because their organist played well. Just as, in many PB churches, the right pitch, tune, speed of the song is not always pleasant to our ears. Bro.s Glen and Jeff know what I'm talking about. Our deacon can sing three notes; never at the right time. Our preacher sings "tenor," but I have yet to find the book he uses!

[ December 19, 2002, 09:45 PM: Message edited by: Bro. James Reed ]

 

Okay Bro. James as Brother Sonny said folks that's the Lloyds Hymnal not the Lords... And I say if we want everyone in tune there is always Sacred Harp but I'm sorry I can't read a note... But my knowledge of a pitch to a song is a steel trap. We don't have a choir either but then we don't need one!... Shhhh!... God is listening!... Make a joyful noise unto the Lord!... Bro. James all my Dads brother were Hardshells from Texas... Doesn't Texas turn out the most Old Baptist of any state?... Then again I know I will get an argument from Brother Jeff ... So I will find a bunker to hide in before the Virginian comes after me ... Brother Glen Of The Primitive Baptist Brethren

 

Whereabouts was your family from? What church did they attend? In the PB directory there are currently more PB churches in Texas than any other state. "We beat the rest of the country." Just kidding! I believe Tennessee is next, followed by Virginia. To comment on what has been said of PB's and the KJV, I went to an ordination last Saturday, and one of the things pointed out in the Charge was we believe the KJV is the preserved written word of God and our final authority. In the churches I know of around here, the KJV is the only version used and all others are not qualified to be preached or studied. I hold to this belief myself. To believe that the KJV is in error, is to believe that God did not preserve His work until the modern times. If this is the case, that would make God in err of His own word. Not so. I would not look down upon others who use other versions, but I would not expect to see them in our church; mostly because it would be very hard to follow along. Has anyone ever tried that? I used to be in a Bible study group at U. of Houston and I was the only one who used a KJV. Boy, I REALLY had to pay attention. They always told me, when it was my turn to read, that I sounded like a preacher. Probably for the sole reason of my Bible. All of the "thee"s and "thou"s, they mad me sound intelligent; like I knew what I was talking about. Bro. James

 

You know Bro. James about the KJV that it is the version that we accept according to our church covenant... You can change our church covenant unless you rewrite the Articles Of Faith!... Our Articles Of Faith are the same now as when I first joined... You change your Articles Of Faith you change your doctrine!

I could go to your church and Brother Jeffs church and Primitive Baptist Church and any other brother or sister that claims to be an Old Line/Old School PB and our Articles Of Faith will not change... There is a reason for PBs being KJV and to change it would be changing our Articles Of Faith and our belief. Then our reasons goes deeper than any other denomination could possibly understand... That is why I tell everyone I am KJV for a reason!... Brother Glen Of The Primitive Baptist Brethren

 

Walls, Like some other Baptist denoms. Southern Baptists may vary a great deal. Some are pretty much Free Will oriented, some are Pentecostal, some lean in the Landmark direction, some are Reformed, aka., Founders oriented. Right now the SBC has very wide parameters, from the most conservative to the most liberal. Probably more than any other denomination. The church near you would have to visited to find out their theological position. From a conservative point of view (mine) the parameters are almost too wide.
I was once asked in a SBC pastors meeting if I would go visiting with a RCC priest. I responded in the negative. But other than two or three others, most were agreeable. This wouldn't have happened years ago. As well, some Southern Baptist churches are now affiliated with the CBF, or Mainstream Baptist groups. These are on the extreme liberal end of the spectrum, but are represencted in most states. I've studied Baptists for almost thirty years and we are an interesting bunch. Very, very diversified. Some inclusive, some exclusive. Hope you have a great day. LP

 

Dear Brother Glen, Brother, I didn'tn know you were a song leader. I have a few of the old books, Lloyd, Goble, Beebe, Durand Lester, Daily, Harp of Ages, Cash, etc., and I love the old songs. But I'm stuck. Often I don't know how they go or what tunes are used. Some are cross-referenced for page numbers in different books, but that doesn't help me much. Is there any way to get some idea how they go (I know there may not be)? I usually sing one before going to bed at night, but, you guessed it, usually to my own tune. thank you dear Brother, LP

 

Okay Brother Jeff and Brother Robert come out from hiding and answer this brother... You are the hymnologists!... I'm just a lowly song leader but these two are the experts!... Brother Glen

 

Dear Brother Lone Pilgrim, first I want you to know that Tyndale is telling tall tales - I don't claim to be an expert! But I have studied a little about the musical history of Baptists, and am also a Sacred Harp singer, so I am familiar with some things about tunes. I am assuming that your question is how do you know which tunes to use with the hymns in the Lloyd's, Goble's, Beebe's and other words-only hymn books. Is that right? First, though you could go to different areas and someone might argue that there is only ONE tune that is to be used for a particular song, if you visit among Primitive Baptists (that use words-only hymn books) you will find variation from area to area as to which tune is used. Sometimes even the same church may use more than one tune for a particular hymn. Someone in a Texas church might say, "Let's use the south Georgia tune," or something like that. Anyway, the technical answer is that any hymn of a particular meter may be sung to any tune of that same meter. For example, "Amazing Grace" is Common Meter - 4 lines of poetry, first 8 syllables, then 6 syllables, then 8, then 6. Although those words are almost wedded to the common tune most of us know for it, that hymn may be sung to "Arlington," "Pisgah," or any of a thousand other tunes that have that meter. And so on with any hymn and tune, unless the meter is completely irregular. Of course, one should try to match the rhytmn, mood, and character of the hymns and tunes, as well as the meter. But you would probably like to know which tunes are used by Primitive Baptists. Only a few ways that I can think of - visit a PB church that sings from Lloyd's or Goble's or get a tape of some of this singing at a PB church. I have written in my Lloyd's and Goble's the names of a few of the tunes to which certain hymns are sung. Many times I don't know the name of the tune that is used. But I will list some of these for you when I return home. If you have some source that lists the tunes, then you can look them up and know a little of how they would sound. Very few will sound exactly like they are written, because most have been passed on in the churches by oral rather than written tradition. Other media, such as the Sacred Harp, Christian Harmony, Southern Harmony, have preserved these old songs in written tradition.

Another resource - click this link:
http://www.mcsr.olemiss.edu/~mudws/resource/chap01.html, then go near the bottom of the page and look for a book called the Plain Circle Tune Book. It is actually more oriented to the Mennonites tunes, but it will give you a resource to a number of tune names and how the tunes are written. The way they are written and the way they are sung are not always the same, though.

Finally - the crossreferencing. The only crossreferencing with which I am familiar is that of the Durand-Lester Hymn & Tune Book and that of the Goble's. Durand-Lester gives in parentheses the hymn's number in the Beebe Hymn Book. Goble gives in parentheses the hymn's number in Thompson's, Beebe's, and Lloyd's. Be sure to check Bro. Jeff's website also:
http://members.aol.com/jweaver303/hymn/hymnal.htm

 

Bro. James Reed wrote:

Bro. James.

Numerically there are more PB's in the state of Georgia than anywhere else. This would include those known as old line, absoulte predesinatian, and progressives. That said, there is probably a greater concentration of PB's in central Appalachia (where I live) than anywhere else, but are spread over North Carolina, Virginia, Tennessee, West Virginia and Kentucky. One of the local folks determined there were over 300 churches within a two hour car ride near hear. I am 45 miles from North Carolina, about 30 miles from Tennessee, 40 miles to West Virginia, and about 90 miles to Kentucky.

You should also know there are considerable numbers of churches in this area, especially in North Carolina and Virginia that don't appear in the pages of the PB directory.

 

Lone Pilgrim.

Since I got referenced in Bro. Glen's comment, I feel I should respond, but can't add anything to Bro. Robert's answer.

Feel free to use any of the hymns on the web site for religious exercises. Over the years a couple of Southern Baptist Churches in Oklahoma have written asking permission to use that material in their church bulletins. Was your church perchance one of them? I have also had similar requests from other states, Canada, and the United Kingdom. If you want it for your worship services, feel free.

Jeff.