The dispensation of grace

[evangelist6589]

I have been rebuked more than once by fellow dispensationalists for my open air preaching system and my use of the 10 commandments in my preaching. Some have argued for another dispensation and that I am back in an older one as in the one of law and I am wrong. Seeing things from their perspective is my attempt at this thread. So those of you fellow dispensationalists please tell me why open air preaching and using the 10 commandments in evangelism are "dated" methods?

I wonder who would agree that the law can be used in the dispensation of grace.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

If you are preaching that people can be saved by keeping the Ten Commandments, that would be disastrous, but I don't think that's what you are doing.
If you are using the law to try to convict your listeners of sin, that is perfectly correct and I hope you keep doing it.

 

[JonC]

I have been rebuked more than once by fellow dispensationalists for my open air preaching system and my use of the 10 commandments in my preaching. Some have argued for another dispensation and that I am back in an older one as in the one of law and I am wrong. Seeing things from their perspective is my attempt at this thread. So those of you fellow dispensationalists please tell me why open air preaching and using the 10 commandments in evangelism are "dated" methods?

I wonder who would agree that the law can be used in the dispensation of grace.

I hesitate to reply, brother, for fear of being misunderstood. But if you want to understand the “why,” then this may help from either perspective (I’ve been gone for a bit so I’ll risk it).

The Law was given to Israel, not to the world. Keep in mind that dispensationalists keep a stark distinction between Israel and the Church, but it really shouldn’t be much of a concern here. The Law had many aspects (moral aspects, ceremonial aspects, etc.) and it is indivisible. A person cannot take, for example, the Ten Commandments as being an authority as the Law but ditch the rest. The Law is the Law. It does not apply to us today as an authority. We are not under the Law.

That said, the Law did represent God’s word, his instruction, and his nature. God is immutable. What is represented in the Law in terms of a moral standard is God’s own law, his moral standard. It does not change. If God tells Israel that it is wrong to commit adultery then it is wrong to commit adultery regardless of the Law (the Law revealed God’s nature). So I can accurately say that the Ten Commandments do not apply to me (as the Ten Commandments). But what is written as the Ten Commandments (insofar as a moral law is concerned) remains God’s moral standard and God’s moral law and are commanded of me today because they reveal God’s moral righteousness for men.

Here’s an example. My oldest son wants to go to the movie this Saturday. I tell him that he can if he obeys his mother, does not back talk, and does his homework. If my youngest son does not do his homework, can I justly punish him? Yes, of course I can. Is it because he is under the deal to go to the movies? No, he’s too young. But that deal with my oldest reflects what I require of all my children.

It is not only the dispensationalists who believe that we are not under the Law, but even dispensationalists should recognize God’s moral nature reflected in the OT. I hope this helps.

 

[DHK]

James 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
--Don't these laws apply to us?

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
--We are sinners aren't we?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The Moral Law, summarized in the 10 Commandments and epitomized in the 'Golden Rule' is treated differently and separately by God compared to the ceremonial and judicial laws which are abolished in Christ. This is shown in verses like Deut. 5:22; Isaiah 1:12-17; Amos 5:21-24; Matt. 9:13.
Therefore you will save no one by telling him that he mustn't eat a shrimp sandwich (Lev. 11:10), but you may save him by pointing Him to God's moral law and convicting him of sin.

 

[JonC]

Martin has a good point, Evan. Maybe you could explain that we are not under the Law and that the Law is not an authority over us (to include the 10 Commandments), but God's moral law is summarized in the moral aspects of the Law.

 

[Iconoclast]

Martin has a good point, Evan. Maybe you could explain that we are not under the Law and that the Law is not an authority over us (to include the 10 Commandments), but God's moral law is summarized in the moral aspects of the Law.

The ten commandments are still for today.
We are not under law to Moses
We are under law to Christ.
All men will be judged by the 10......

 

[Iconoclast]

I have been rebuked more than once by fellow dispensationalists for my open air preaching system and my use of the 10 commandments in my preaching. Some have argued for another dispensation and that I am back in an older one as in the one of law and I am wrong. Seeing things from their perspective is my attempt at this thread. So those of you fellow dispensationalists please tell me why open air preaching and using the 10 commandments in evangelism are "dated" methods?

I wonder who would agree that the law can be used in the dispensation of grace.

You're beloved dispensationalist friends will not agree with you. The best of them will offer mental gymnastics in trying to answer this.....because that system is dead wrong here.

You are trying to cling to a system that is inconsistent and fatally flawed.

 

[evangelist6589]

You beloved dispensationalist friends will not agree with you. The best of them will offer mental gymnastics in trying to answer this.....because that system is dead wrong here.

You are trying to cling to a system that is inconsistent and fatally flawed.

You made a grammar error. It should read "You're beloved..."

 

[evangelist6589]

Hi guys. Will reply to the rest of the posts here when I get to my computer.

 

[Iconoclast]

You made a grammar error. It should read "You're beloved..."

Correct....
I am typing on my phone....I should be more careful.Thanks for pointing it out.
I know you do not like my posting but you must understand. .
If you stay in the middle ground on every issue theologically you will get attacked from both sides...
On all areas....

 

[JonC]

The ten commandments are still for today.
We are not under law to Moses
We are under law to Christ.
All men will be judged by the 10......

Hey Icon,
I think that we both believe that the moral law as reflected in the Law of Moses is applicable, perhaps for different reasons but I'm not sure....not even sure if there is a difference it really matters (I believe it is because the Ten Commandments reflect God's moral law for man, not because they are the "Ten Commandments given to Israel). If I understand you correctly, how do you justify divorcing the Ten Commandments from the Law of Moses? Or do you consider the Ten Commandments to have been given apart from the Law of Moses?

 

[agedman]

Hey Icon,
I think that we both believe that the moral law as reflected in the Law of Moses is applicable, perhaps for different reasons but I'm not sure....not even sure if there is a difference it really matters (I believe it is because the Ten Commandments reflect God's moral law for man, not because they are the "Ten Commandments given to Israel). If I understand you correctly, how do you justify divorcing the Ten Commandments from the Law of Moses? Or do you consider the Ten Commandments to have been given apart from the Law of Moses?

Did not Paul specifically state that one is to either be free from the law or enslaved and bound to the law?

The commandments are written upon the heart of every person (Romans 1) so, preaching the ten commandments is preaching to the choir. What the apostles did was preach Christ was crucified, risen and is coming again.

If folks respond to that message, it is the work of the Holy Spirit, and not some superimposed emotional wrestling with a broken commandment.

All have broken the commandments.

What is the solution is what should be offered.

 

[JonShaff]

Did not Paul specifically state that one is to either be free from the law or enslaved and bound to the law?

The commandments are written upon the heart of every person (Romans 1) so, preaching the ten commandments is preaching to the choir. What the apostles did was preach Christ was crucified, risen and is coming again.

If folks respond to that message, it is the work of the Holy Spirit, and not some superimposed emotional wrestling with a broken commandment.

All have broken the commandments.

What is the solution is what should be offered.

So offering the problem isn't practical?

That's kinda like telling a person to take this medicine without first telling them they have a disease.

 

[agedman]

So offering the problem isn't practical?

That's kinda like telling a person to take this medicine without first telling them they have a disease.

No, I am stating that those who "have ears to hear" already understand they are condemned, and they need to be given the solution not further condemned by one who is also just as frail as themselves.

You assume that one doesn't know they are sick, as if they have some hidden cancer. That just isn't the state of those that have ears.

A great example is the woman at the well, or even the thief on the cross. Both already knew they were sin-filled. What was it they needed? The solution.

Do not take the extreme to think that I am not in favor of bringing up the commandments. But, they are not a tool to use as a hammer, but a guide to Christ.

For example:

"The Scriptures state it is wrong to lie, cheat, steal and many other such offenses toward both God and man. Have we not all done one or more of these? If we have offended in one, are we not guilty of death. What will you offer God for excuse or demand of this death? God has already brought you a solution. Why you and I were born sinful and are sin filled today, God in His love sent His only natural born Son, to redeem all who will believe. For His Son died that those who believer are no longer condemned to die. Those that don't believe are already condemned, as each one of us who now believer were also condemned for unbelief..."​

The folks should be shown that they are already condemned, and that God provided the Lamb.

 

[JonShaff]

No, I am stating that those who "have ears to hear" already understand they are condemned, and they need to be given the solution not further condemned by one who is also just as frail as themselves.

You assume that one doesn't know they are sick, as if they have some hidden cancer. That just isn't the state of those that have ears.

A great example is the woman at the well, or even the thief on the cross. Both already knew they were sin-filled. What was it they needed? The solution.

Do not take the extreme to think that I am not in favor of bringing up the commandments. But, they are not a tool to use as a hammer, but a guide to Christ.

For example:

"The Scriptures state it is wrong to lie, cheat, steal and many other such offenses toward both God and man. Have we not all done one or more of these? If we have offended in one, are we not guilty of death. What will you offer God for excuse or demand of this death? God has already brought you a solution. Why you and I were born sinful and are sin filled today, God in His love sent His only natural born Son, to redeem all who will believe. For His Son died that those who believer are no longer condemned to die. Those that don't believe are already condemned, as each one of us who now believer were also condemned for unbelief..."​

The folks should be shown that they are already condemned, and that God provided the Lamb.

So when was the last time you explicitly shared the gospel and exactly what did you say?

Also something to consider...why did Philip EXPLAIN the scriptures to The Eunuch?

 

[JonShaff]

And the Spirit Works WITH the Word of God, To convict of sin and unbelief...a supernatural act that God has for some amazing reason allowed us to be fellow laborers with Him in doing (1 Cor. 3, 2 Cor. 4-5)

 

[Iconoclast]

Hey Icon,
I think that we both believe that the moral law as reflected in the Law of Moses is applicable, perhaps for different reasons but I'm not sure....not even sure if there is a difference it really matters (I believe it is because the Ten Commandments reflect God's moral law for man, not because they are the "Ten Commandments given to Israel). If I understand you correctly, how do you justify divorcing the Ten Commandments from the Law of Moses? Or do you consider the Ten Commandments to have been given apart from the Law of Moses?

Hello John C
yes you are correct we have some agreement and some disagreement.
I believe the Ten Commandments were in effect before they were given to Moses and Israel .
I think they were given to Moses and Israel as a starting point and then all the other commandments were expansions of the Ten Commandments that would apply during the Israelite theocracy.
The law is holy just and good but it was never given or intended to be a means of salvation.
the only one that could keep the Law is the Lord Jesus Christ and by his perfect obedience perfect active obedience and at righteousness being applied to us we are saved by his law keeping

 

[JonC]

Hello John C
yes you are correct we have some agreement and some disagreement.
I believe the Ten Commandments were in effect before they were given to Moses and Israel .
I think they were given to Moses and Israel as a starting point and then all the other commandments were expansions of the Ten Commandments that would apply during the Israelite theocracy.
The law is holy just and good but it was never given or intended to be a means of salvation.
the only one that could keep the Law is the Lord Jesus Christ and by his perfect obedience perfect active obedience and at righteousness being applied to us we are saved by his law keeping

We are actually closer than I had thought. Initially I thought that it may have been a difference between our views regarding covenant theology. But I do believe God's law as reflected in the Ten Commandments was in effect prior to the Law was given. The difference is I believe the Law of Moses included God's eternal moral law as the Ten Commandments. Part of my conclusion is that I believe God's law is a revelation of his own nature.

 

[Iconoclast]

We are actually closer than I had thought. Initially I thought that it may have been a difference between our views regarding covenant theology. But I do believe God's law as reflected in the Ten Commandments was in effect prior to the Law was given. The difference is I believe the Law of Moses included God's eternal moral law as the Ten Commandments. Part of my conclusion is that I believe God's law is a revelation of his own nature.

Yes.....exactly. God as perfectly Holy reveals to His image bearers what his design is for mankind.
Adam in the fall loses the ability to rightly community with a Holy God as designed.
God's law did not change. Man in sin and rebellion still has the broken imprint of the law in his God given conscience by common grace.
In Christ God is restoring man to be true Image bearers.
Jesus is the only true and pure Image bearer.
Jesus was made under the law.....He was a law keeper.
In the new covenant the law is placed within our new heart and minds. Christians are law keepers.
Not for salvation but because we are saved and are to love God and neighbors. ..Rom 13:10

I had to park where I cannot get online except on my phone....so I will resume more when I can get on my laptop.