The Doctrine Of Election...

[OldRegular]

Ephesians states:

Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

​

Was Paul mistaken?

Perhaps you can reconcile your post with what Paul stated.

Your post to which I responded implied that no one was saved other than those of the nation Israel until the cross:

Absolutely.

What do you think Peter and the great bed sheet was all about?

It was REVEALED as in a vision.

And as Paul states in Eph. the gentiles were left out, excluded, and prevented from... until the cross.

I don't need to reconcile my post. Scripture does not lie. Clearly, according to Scripture, elect outside the nation Israel were saved prior to the cross. You need to understand what Paul is saying and not question the Word of God.

 

[Allan]

May I respectfully ask you a question? Are you inferring you cooperated with the Spirit of God....the result being your regeneration?

If you hold to Reformed or Calvinistic Doctrine, you do.
Let me explain.

If God must (for whatever His reason) have you involved in any way to save you.. that, by definition is synergistic.

If God saves you whether you believe/have faith or not, that by definition is monergistic. Why, because salvation doesn't have anything to do with you or what you want, it is God's choice to do it.

Scripture testifies that we are justified, sanctified, brought into Christ, giving the Spirit of God - by - faith. These, according to scripture do not happen pre-faith. You cannot be saved without justification, sanctification, having the Spirit of the living God in you and thus 'in' Christ Jesus.

It is 'by faith' we are justified (Rom 3:28)
It is 'by faith' we are sanctified (Acts 26:18,)
It is 'by faith' we are made righteous (Rom 3:22, Rom 4:5)
It is 'by faith' the propitiation (substituationary death) is applied to man (Rom 3:25)
It is 'by faith' we receive (obtain) the indwelling Holy Spirit (Gal 3:14)

All of these show (and other verses as well) that unless faith is FIRST excerized there is no salvation or new birth which constitutes all of the above; For they are all BY FAITH.

If God will not save you a part or separate from 'you' believing then it, by nature, is cooperation (no matter it's smallest, infinitesimal degree). Even if God changes you to desire it.. the WHOLE point is did you need to believe/repent in order to be eternally saved.. did you have to cooperate with God.
Where you saved without faith?

However, if you believe that regeneration 'is' salvation that happens pre-faith, then that is another discussion.

Now let me qualify something - To me, I find there is no question that biblically, regeneration 'is' salvation.

 

[Allan]

Only those whom have been chosen and elected to be saved by the father will ever respond to that message though!

Agreed! (however 'chosen' and 'elected' are, in essense, the same thing)
Thus the Book of life which was written 'before' the foundation (creation) of the world

 

[Protestant]

If you hold to Reformed or Calvinistic Doctrine, you do.
Let me explain.

If God must (for whatever His reason) have you involved in any way to save you.. that, by definition is synergistic.

If God saves you whether you believe/have faith or not, that by definition is monergistic. Why, because salvation doesn't have anything to do with you or what you want, it is God's choice to do it.

Scripture testifies that we are justified, sanctified, brought into Christ, giving the Spirit of God - by - faith. These, according to scripture do not happen pre-faith. You cannot be saved without justification, sanctification, having the Spirit of the living God in you and thus 'in' Christ Jesus.

It is 'by faith' we are justified (Rom 3:28)
It is 'by faith' we are sanctified (Acts 26:18,)
It is 'by faith' we are made righteous (Rom 3:22, Rom 4:5)
It is 'by faith' the propitiation (substituationary death) is applied to man (Rom 3:25)
It is 'by faith' we receive (obtain) the indwelling Holy Spirit (Gal 3:14)

All of these show (and other verses as well) that unless faith is FIRST excerized there is no salvation or new birth which constitutes all of the above; For they are all BY FAITH.

If God will not save you a part or separate from 'you' believing then it, by nature, is cooperation (no matter it's smallest, infinitesimal degree). Even if God changes you to desire it.. the WHOLE point is did you need to believe/repent in order to be eternally saved.. did you have to cooperate with God.
Where you saved without faith?

However, if you believe that regeneration 'is' salvation that happens pre-faith, then that is another discussion.

Now let me qualify something - To me, I find there is no question that biblically, regeneration 'is' salvation.

Thank you, Allan, for your detailed reply.

If I may summarize your analysis: You exercised your faith first which then resulted in the reward of the new birth.

May I respectfully ask a few questions......?

1. How do you equate your view with Scripture which states faith is God's gift to the Elect, not vice-versa?

2. How is it possible to discern spiritual truths without the new birth by the Spirit first? For Scripture tells us the flesh profits nothing and is enmity with God.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Good to see you back OR

Àbsolutely... welcome Brother.:wavey:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You need to understand what Paul is saying and not question the Word of God.

My brother OR...this is like a cool drink in the heat:thumbs: thank you thank you thank you. :applause:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Thank you, Allan, for your detailed reply.

If I may summarize your analysis: You exercised your faith first which then resulted in the reward of the new birth.

May I respectfully ask a few questions......?

1. How do you equate your view with Scripture which states faith is God's gift to the Elect, not vice-versa?

2. How is it possible to discern spiritual truths without the new birth by the Spirit first? For Scripture tells us the flesh profits nothing and is enmity with God.

Hmmmm, something is wrong here...I was in rebellion, did not believe and was even chastised for unbelief. How then could have had anything but hatred and skepticism for God?

 

[percho]

If you hold to Reformed or Calvinistic Doctrine, you do.
Let me explain.

If God must (for whatever His reason) have you involved in any way to save you.. that, by definition is synergistic.

If God saves you whether you believe/have faith or not, that by definition is monergistic. Why, because salvation doesn't have anything to do with you or what you want, it is God's choice to do it.

Scripture testifies that we are justified, sanctified, brought into Christ, giving the Spirit of God - by - faith. These, according to scripture do not happen pre-faith. You cannot be saved without justification, sanctification, having the Spirit of the living God in you and thus 'in' Christ Jesus.

It is 'by faith' we are justified (Rom 3:28)
It is 'by faith' we are sanctified (Acts 26:18,)
It is 'by faith' we are made righteous (Rom 3:22, Rom 4:5)
It is 'by faith' the propitiation (substituationary death) is applied to man (Rom 3:25)
It is 'by faith' we receive (obtain) the indwelling Holy Spirit (Gal 3:14)

All of these show (and other verses as well) that unless faith is FIRST excerized there is no salvation or new birth which constitutes all of the above; For they are all BY FAITH.

If God will not save you a part or separate from 'you' believing then it, by nature, is cooperation (no matter it's smallest, infinitesimal degree). Even if God changes you to desire it.. the WHOLE point is did you need to believe/repent in order to be eternally saved.. did you have to cooperate with God.
Where you saved without faith?

However, if you believe that regeneration 'is' salvation that happens pre-faith, then that is another discussion.

Now let me qualify something - To me, I find there is no question that biblically, regeneration 'is' salvation.

I would like to challenge one of the above statements even though they are all the same.


It is 'by faith' we receive (obtain) the indwelling Holy Spirit (Gal 3:14)


Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 16:7

Said the very night before he was to be crucified. If I go not away, if I do not die and shed my blood on the cross the Comforter will not come to you. It was Jesus going away in death and God his Father raising him from the dead that establishes that death as the faith by which the promise of the Spirit was given.

Compare. 1 Cor. 15:3 states Christ died for our sins yet verse 17 states that if Christ is not risen from the dead we are still in our sins and our faith vain. His death did nothing is he had not been raised.

Now look at Acts 2:32,33 God the Father raises Jesus the Christ from the dead, that is he died shed his blood, he ascends on high and receives from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit and then the Holy Spirit is shed on us.

This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. KJV

Galatians 3:14 literally says: that the promise of the Spirit we may receive through the faith.

That is through the faith of Christ.

The Spirit moves us from unbelief unto belief.

Paul was going down the road in unbelief that Jesus was the Christ the Son of God (see 1 Tim. 1:13) God through Jesus calls him gives him the Spirit and Paul in belief preaches Jesus as the Christ the Son of God.

 

[Allan]

Thank you, Allan, for your detailed reply.

If I may summarize your analysis: You exercised your faith first which then resulted in the reward of the new birth.

If by 'reward' you mean something earned through working, no. I cried out to God believing what He said and who He is, and He saved me by doing all the rest after He did all preceding it.

1. How do you equate your view with Scripture which states faith is God's gift to the Elect, not vice-versa?

I would say the view that the Elect only has benn given some special faith isn't agreed upon. Faith IS something that can only come from God, not in that it is something given to a person, as in they never had it, but in the fact a part from God revealing, man would never know the proper object to which 'faith' is to applied regarding eternal life.

2. How is it possible to discern spiritual truths without the new birth by the Spirit first? For Scripture tells us the flesh profits nothing and is enmity with God.

A person cannot, but God reveals it to them. The Spirit of God does not need to enter a person to reveal truth and Roms 1 (as simply one example of many) proves this very statement since it states they know God because 'God' has revealed it them but they chose to reject him.

In order to 'assume' one needs to have the Spirit of God in their life (in them, unifying them with God, by/through placing them 'in' Christ Jesus) one has to ignore the scriptures I gave which states unity with Christ, justification, sanctification, the indwelling of the Spirit is all done by/through faith, not prior to it.
Scriptures are specific about unity of light with darkness, righteousness with sin.. they cannot be. So a person that is 'in' Christ, by necessity HAS to be justified and sanctified because of their very nature and Christ's as well. However this cannot happen till faith is first exercised since the propitiation is not applied without faith, nor are we justified apart from faith.

 

[Gorship]

by Charles D.Mallary (1801-1864). A snip from his booklet follows.

Election harms no man --election damns no man. It does not pursue the criminal and force him down the precipice of ruin: but it plucks multitudes from that fatal brink and plants them on the rock of ages. In the execution of its merciful and eternal designs, it gathers out from the guilty,polluted,dying mass,...a great multitude which no man can number,of all nations, kindred and people and tongues;sweetly draws, graciously subdues; washes out their stains in the blood of the Lamb;guides them safely through all their perils and conflicts,and with them peoples the shores and fills the thrones of the celestial Canaan. If all had been left to perish, God's throne had been guiltless;that some are saved, shall redound to the honor of His name, and proclaim the riches of His grace through eternal ages.

Why quarrel with that purpose which results in blessings like these? Why fall out with that arrangement which unfolds nothing but pure,unmixed and effectual mercy,and without which not one ray of saving light had ever pierced the dark night which sin has rolled upon the prospects of mortals? Why one culpritshould be savingly pitied rather than another,may never be fully explained to finite minds;but infinite wisdom has the best of reasons for all its acts: let mortals bow in holy adoration, and exclaim, "even so Father,for it seemeth good in thy sight."

If this is the doctrine of election, how come everyone gets mad at us non-cals for saying we don't understand it? Have not read a post that doesn't leave this definition at all.

 

[Protestant]

If by 'reward' you mean something earned through working, no. I cried out to God believing what He said and who He is, and He saved me by doing all the rest after He did all preceding it......... The Spirit of God does not need to enter a person to reveal truth and Roms 1 (as simply one example of many) proves this very statement since it states they know God because 'God' has revealed it them but they chose to reject him.

Thank you, again, Allan, for your sincere reply. I have specifically used two of your quotes for my next question. In these quotes you have identified specific traits which set you apart from non-Christians.
1. Belief
2. Right Choice

How is it that you 'believed', making the right 'choice' while innumerable other humans do not?

There are three possible answers to that question:
1. You used all your human powers of intellect, experiences and education to arrive at believing and choosing that which was holy, righteous and good.

2. God assisted you, helping you reach a point where you yourself were capable of believing and choosing that which was holy, righteous and good.

3. God alone gave you the Holy Spirit who resurrected you from spiritual death, gave you a new heart, as well as eyes to see and ears to hear, resulting in the miracle of faith, repentance and the desire and power to follow Christ, who alone is holy, righteous and good.

I look forward to your reply.

 

[psalms109:31]

We can be the most righteous before men and you are dirty rags. We are men of unclean lips before God.

I don't care who you think you are you will not come to that conclusion until you not only listen because you can be ever hearing and never understanding. We listen and learn, only then will we come to repent and live. We are to listen and learn and pray to God He will grant us repentance and live. God does not need to repent of anything we do, we will not repent until we see our selves as we really are dead in sin, praise God we can be alive in Christ when we turn to Him just as we are listen and learn and we will find rest for our souls.

 

[DrJamesAch]

Revealed? You mean like in a vision because Gentile election before Salvation is not in scripture.
MB

What was 'revealed' was that the Gentiles would be fellow heirs, not the dynamics of election. Eph 3:6. It was a mystery because every Jew thought that they had exclusive rights to the Messiah because of their flesh and blood connection to Israel. Matt 3:9. The Jews hearts were so hard they missed Isaiah 11:10. They believed that the Gentiles would SEEK the Saviour, but not that the gospel would be offered to them which is why all the Jews that opposed the apostles were so offended that a Jew would preach the gospel to a Gentile and tell them that they were fellow partakers of the spiritual promises from Abraham.

There is a promise that IS exclusive to Israel that has not yet been fulfilled, and that is where all covenant theologians, preterist, historicist, dominionists, miss the boat by failing to see the difference between the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God, the spiritual promises that came from Abraham through faith before the law, and the physical birthright that was given strictly to Israel through Ephraim. Without properly understanding these different elections, one will always misinterpret every single mention of "the elect" in the Bible and conclude that the church and Israel are synonymous, and build a faulty doctrine of election.

 

[Allan]

...
There are three possible answers to that question:
1. You used all your human powers of intellect, experiences and education to arrive at believing and choosing that which was holy, righteous and good.

2. you, helping you reach a point where you yourself were capable of believing and choosing that whichGod assisted was holy, righteous and good.

3. God alone gave you the Holy Spirit who resurrected you from spiritual death, gave you a new heart, as well as eyes to see and ears to hear, resulting in the miracle of faith, repentance and the desire and power to follow Christ, who alone is holy, righteous and good.

I look forward to your reply.

Ok.. well, unfortunately, as has been revealed by scripture #3 is an absolute biblical impossibility thus that one can be removed as false, leaving only 1 and 2.

However I did notice something in the last part of your #3 (".. and power..").
So you are affirming that man must cooperate with God in order to be saved?

Anyway.. #2 Isn't worded correctly either. It might better be worded:
2. God revealed truth to you, helping you reach a point where you, knowing the truth, allows you the opportunity to reject or accept what He revealed as truth.

When people talk about the new heart, it must always be in accordance with scripture. Where we see this new heart coming into play is never prior to believing but AFTER:

Eze 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, by which ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn ye, and live.

While this does refer more to a national repentance, is not the national repentance predicated upon a personal return to God. How can a nation repent and turn if the heart of the individuals of that nation did not actually turn back to God. Matthew Henry states it thusly on this verse:

- 1. We must repent; we must change our mind and change our ways; we must be sorry for what we have done amiss and ashamed of it, and go as far as we can towards the undoing of it again. 2. We must turn ourselves from all our transgressions, Eze_18:30 and again Eze_18:32. Turn yourselves, face about; turn from sin, nay, turn against it as the enemy you loathe, turn to God as the friend you love. 3. We must cast away from us all our transgressions; we must abandon and forsake them with a resolution never to return to them again, give sin a bill of divorce, break all the leagues we have made with it, throw it overboard, as the mariners did Jonah (for it has raised the storm), cast it out of the soul, and crucify it as a malefactor. 4. We must make us a new heart and a new spirit. This was the matter of a promise, Eze_11:19. Here it is the matter of a precept. We must do our endeavour, and then God will not be wanting to us to give us his grace. St. Austin well explains this precept. Deus non jubet impossibilia, sed jubendo monet et facere quod possis et petere quod non possis - God does not enjoin impossibilities, but by his commands admonishes us to do what is in our power and to pray for what is not.

Eze 11:19 states that God will give them a new heart

It is of note that the 'new heart' issue (in both Eze 11 and 18, as well as 36) is preceded by drawing them first AND THEN cleaning them and giving them a new heart. (also contextually this is about National Israel being brought back together to the land God promised them but we are looking at the principle here).. anyway.. Actaully chapter 11 states something else interesting in vs.21 about those who chose NOT to follow. Hmm.. are we saying that if God is calling someone they can refuse unto damnation? Yes. Prov 1 and other places state this very thing as well:

Pro 1:22 "How long, O simple ones, will you love being simple? How long will scoffers delight in their scoffing and fools hate knowledge?
Pro 1:23 If you turn at my reproof, behold, I will pour out my spirit to you; I will make my words known to you.
Pro 1:24 Because I have called and you refused to listen, have stretched out my hand and no one has heeded,
Pro 1:25 because you have ignored all my counsel and would have none of my reproof,
Pro 1:26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when terror strikes you,
Pro 1:27 when terror strikes you like a storm and your calamity comes like a whirlwind, when distress and anguish come upon you.
Pro 1:28 Then they will call upon me, but I will not answer; they will seek me diligently but will not find me.
Pro 1:29 Because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the LORD,
Pro 1:30 would have none of my counsel and despised all my reproof,
Pro 1:31 therefore they shall eat the fruit of their way, and have their fill of their own devices.
Pro 1:32 For the simple are killed by their turning away, and the complacency of fools destroys them;
Pro 1:33 but whoever listens to me will dwell secure and will be at ease, without dread of disaster."

And while in Rom 10:21 (stretching out his arms to a disobient people) is a quote from Isa.. I believe Isa took the principle from Prov 1:24 but in any case.. they both state the same thing.. God called and they rejected 'His' calling of them to truth and repentence. Note - Turn at my reproof and I will pour out my Spirit upon you AND make known my words to you. Repent, then the Spirit of God comes in to dwell to teach us. It is in light of this that one cannot, in any way, presume the above is in relation to the 'outward call' because while God 'is' addressing those who are unbelievers. Much like Heb 3:7-8.. if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as they did in the days of provocation.

Deu 30:14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
Deu 30:15 "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.
Deu 30:16 If you choose to obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.
Deu 30:17 But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them,
Deu 30:18 I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess.
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,
Deu 30:20 loving the LORD your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them."

Note that 'life' comes after choice/belief. It is easy to see as it is repeated.
We note this is not just about keeping laws as vs 17 states - if the heart turns away (literally rejects to believe) you will perish. This is of course is established in the fact that vs 14 states you have the ability to do it (Choose/believe) or not, as with vs 17.

The 'not' here is not that sometime later you will come back but that you 'will perish', just as Jesus told the Nick in John 3:16 ".. whoever believes wil not perish but have eternal life."

Now before you state this is ONLY about the taking of the promised land we must also note that it is intrinsically wrapped up in the relatioship of the people with God. Thus while on the one hand, yes it is about taking of the promised land, on the other hand it is wrapped up so tightly in the relationship with God that it cannot be separated from it because once in that relationship with God they will Love God, Hear God, and Cleave to Him.

Note aslo that only after choosing life/believing, we note they 'will' love, they 'will' hear Him, and they 'will' cleave to Him p for He is your life.. only after faith, not prior to which leads them to faith. Thus you have -Choose life.. that you may.. love.., hear.., and cleave to God. Without first choosing you cannot love, hear, nor cleave.

It is also important to note that it was from these specific passages that the apostle Paul chose to quote from and restating them Rom 10:6-10 regarding salvation.

Believe and you will - love God, hear God, cleave to God because God is life.
He has set before all men - life and death. Choose life!
Thus we note in 2 Thes 2:10-12 that even the followers of the anti-Christ (whichever version one wants to acknowledge) they rejected the truth 'that could save them'. God placed before, even them, life and death. But like in Duet.. if they would not, they WILL perish.. and 2 Thes agrees with this:

2Th 2:11 And because of this, God will send to them a strong delusion, for them to believe the lie,
2Th 2:12 that all may be judged, those not believing the truth, but who have delighted in unrighteousness

Like all scripture, no one is turned over to their sin until they have chosen 'not to believe' in the truth God has revealed. (ex; Rom 1)

 

[percho]

Ok.. well, unfortunately, as has been revealed by scripture #3 is an absolute biblical impossibility thus that one can be removed as false, leaving only 1 and 2.

However I did notice something in the last part of your #3 (".. and power..").
So you are affirming that man must cooperate with God in order to be saved?

Anyway.. #2 Isn't worded correctly either. It might better be worded:
2. God revealed truth to you, helping you reach a point where you, knowing the truth, allows you the opportunity to reject or accept what He revealed as truth.

When people talk about the new heart, it must always be in accordance with scripture. Where we see this new heart coming into play is never prior to believing but AFTER:

While this does refer more to a national repentance, is not the national repentance predicated upon a personal return to God. How can a nation repent and turn if the heart of the individuals of that nation did not actually turn back to God. Matthew Henry states it thusly on this verse:

Eze 11:19 states that God will give them a new heart

It is of note that the 'new heart' issue (in both Eze 11 and 18, as well as 36) is preceded by drawing them first AND THEN cleaning them and giving them a new heart. (also contextually this is about National Israel being brought back together to the land God promised them but we are looking at the principle here).. anyway.. Actaully chapter 11 states something else interesting in vs.21 about those who chose NOT to follow. Hmm.. are we saying that if God is calling someone they can refuse unto damnation? Yes. Prov 1 and other places state this very thing as well:

And while in Rom 10:21 (stretching out his arms to a disobient people) is a quote from Isa.. I believe Isa took the principle from Prov 1:24 but in any case.. they both state the same thing.. God called and they rejected 'His' calling of them to truth and repentence. Note - Turn at my reproof and I will pour out my Spirit upon you AND make known my words to you. Repent, then the Spirit of God comes in to dwell to teach us. It is in light of this that one cannot, in any way, presume the above is in relation to the 'outward call' because while God 'is' addressing those who are unbelievers. Much like Heb 3:7-8.. if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as they did in the days of provocation.


Note that 'life' comes after choice/belief. It is easy to see as it is repeated.
We note this is not just about keeping laws as vs 17 states - if the heart turns away (literally rejects to believe) you will perish. This is of course is established in the fact that vs 14 states you have the ability to do it (Choose/believe) or not, as with vs 17.

The 'not' here is not that sometime later you will come back but that you 'will perish', just as Jesus told the Nick in John 3:16 ".. whoever believes wil not perish but have eternal life."

Now before you state this is ONLY about the taking of the promised land we must also note that it is intrinsically wrapped up in the relatioship of the people with God. Thus while on the one hand, yes it is about taking of the promised land, on the other hand it is wrapped up so tightly in the relationship with God that it cannot be separated from it because once in that relationship with God they will Love God, Hear God, and Cleave to Him.

Note aslo that only after choosing life/believing, we note they 'will' love, they 'will' hear Him, and they 'will' cleave to Him p for He is your life.. only after faith, not prior to which leads them to faith. Thus you have -Choose life.. that you may.. love.., hear.., and cleave to God. Without first choosing you cannot love, hear, nor cleave.

It is also important to note that it was from these specific passages that the apostle Paul chose to quote from and restating them Rom 10:6-10 regarding salvation.

Believe and you will - love God, hear God, cleave to God because God is life.
He has set before all men - life and death. Choose life!
Thus we note in 2 Thes 2:10-12 that even the followers of the anti-Christ (whichever version one wants to acknowledge) they rejected the truth 'that could save them'. God placed before, even them, life and death. But like in Duet.. if they would not, they WILL perish.. and 2 Thes agrees with this:

Like all scripture, no one is turned over to their sin until they have chosen 'not to believe' in the truth God has revealed. (ex; Rom 1)

Believe and you will - love God, hear God, cleave to God because God is life.
He has set before all men - life and death. Choose life!


Out of all of mankind who were born of woman from creation until 1865, would you list for me well let's say four who are presently bodily alive today. How many in that time span would you say choose life and are bodily alive today.

BTW my answer is one, Jesus of Nazareth. I believe the other two are as David was the day of Pentecost following the resurrection of Jesus, both dead and buried.

 

[Allan]

Out of all of mankind who were born of woman from creation until 1865, would you list for me well let's say four who are presently bodily alive today. How many in that time span would you say choose life and are bodily alive today.

BTW my answer is one, Jesus of Nazareth. I believe the other two are as David was the day of Pentecost following the resurrection of Jesus, both dead and buried.

Not physical life (though in the resurrection we will be again).. however the life I am speaking to is eternal life/ spiritual life.

 

[Protestant]

Ok.. well, unfortunately, as has been revealed by scripture #3 is an absolute biblical impossibility thus that one can be removed as false, leaving only 1 and 2.

However I did notice something in the last part of your #3 (".. and power..").
So you are affirming that man must cooperate with God in order to be saved?

Anyway.. #2 Isn't worded correctly either. It might better be worded:
2. God revealed truth to you, helping you reach a point where you, knowing the truth, allows you the opportunity to reject or accept what He revealed as truth.

When people talk about the new heart, it must always be in accordance with scripture. Where we see this new heart coming into play is never prior to believing but AFTER:

While this does refer more to a national repentance, is not the national repentance predicated upon a personal return to God. How can a nation repent and turn if the heart of the individuals of that nation did not actually turn back to God. Matthew Henry states it thusly on this verse:

Eze 11:19 states that God will give them a new heart

It is of note that the 'new heart' issue (in both Eze 11 and 18, as well as 36) is preceded by drawing them first AND THEN cleaning them and giving them a new heart. (also contextually this is about National Israel being brought back together to the land God promised them but we are looking at the principle here).. anyway.. Actaully chapter 11 states something else interesting in vs.21 about those who chose NOT to follow. Hmm.. are we saying that if God is calling someone they can refuse unto damnation? Yes. Prov 1 and other places state this very thing as well:

And while in Rom 10:21 (stretching out his arms to a disobient people) is a quote from Isa.. I believe Isa took the principle from Prov 1:24 but in any case.. they both state the same thing.. God called and they rejected 'His' calling of them to truth and repentence. Note - Turn at my reproof and I will pour out my Spirit upon you AND make known my words to you. Repent, then the Spirit of God comes in to dwell to teach us. It is in light of this that one cannot, in any way, presume the above is in relation to the 'outward call' because while God 'is' addressing those who are unbelievers. Much like Heb 3:7-8.. if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as they did in the days of provocation.


Note that 'life' comes after choice/belief. It is easy to see as it is repeated.
We note this is not just about keeping laws as vs 17 states - if the heart turns away (literally rejects to believe) you will perish. This is of course is established in the fact that vs 14 states you have the ability to do it (Choose/believe) or not, as with vs 17.

The 'not' here is not that sometime later you will come back but that you 'will perish', just as Jesus told the Nick in John 3:16 ".. whoever believes wil not perish but have eternal life."

Now before you state this is ONLY about the taking of the promised land we must also note that it is intrinsically wrapped up in the relatioship of the people with God. Thus while on the one hand, yes it is about taking of the promised land, on the other hand it is wrapped up so tightly in the relationship with God that it cannot be separated from it because once in that relationship with God they will Love God, Hear God, and Cleave to Him.

Note aslo that only after choosing life/believing, we note they 'will' love, they 'will' hear Him, and they 'will' cleave to Him p for He is your life.. only after faith, not prior to which leads them to faith. Thus you have -Choose life.. that you may.. love.., hear.., and cleave to God. Without first choosing you cannot love, hear, nor cleave.

It is also important to note that it was from these specific passages that the apostle Paul chose to quote from and restating them Rom 10:6-10 regarding salvation.

Believe and you will - love God, hear God, cleave to God because God is life.
He has set before all men - life and death. Choose life!
Thus we note in 2 Thes 2:10-12 that even the followers of the anti-Christ (whichever version one wants to acknowledge) they rejected the truth 'that could save them'. God placed before, even them, life and death. But like in Duet.. if they would not, they WILL perish.. and 2 Thes agrees with this:

Like all scripture, no one is turned over to their sin until they have chosen 'not to believe' in the truth God has revealed. (ex; Rom 1)

Thank you, Allan, for continuing the dialogue. Rather than lose focus by responding to the many points you made, I wish to zero in on this one point in particular:

You wrote: "Anyway.. #2 Isn't worded correctly either. It might better be worded:
2. God revealed truth to you, helping you reach a point where you, knowing the truth, allows you the opportunity to reject or accept what He revealed as truth."

My next question is this: Why is it you accepted God's truth while others do not and perish forever as a result of their sins?

 

[Allan]

Thank you, Allan, for continuing the dialogue. Rather than lose focus by responding to the many points you made, I wish to zero in on this one point in particular:

You wrote: "Anyway.. #2 Isn't worded correctly either. It might better be worded:
2. God revealed truth to you, helping you reach a point where you, knowing the truth, allows you the opportunity to reject or accept what He revealed as truth."

My next question is this: Why is it you accepted God's truth while others do not and perish forever as a result of their sins?

simple.. Why? because I believed and they choose not to.

 

[preacher4truth]

simple.. Why? because I believed and they choose not to.

Oh, so salvation is then a reward, not a gift.

 

[percho]

Oh, so salvation is then a reward, not a gift.

I say it is a gift because of what Jesus the author and finisher of the faith did and the response of God the Father to what his Son did. The grace of God is a response to the faith of the Son.

Before it was said, "Let there be light," it was determined the lamb of God without spot and without blemish, the Son of God to be born of a being taken from another being created in the image of God would die, shed his blood, pour out his soul unto death and be no more. At about or at the exact moment this was determined God who cannot lie also made a promise. The hope of eternal life.

Did it require faith for the sinless Son of God the only begotten of woman to lay down his life for our sins?

The moment of the day in which he cried, " My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me, into thy hands I commend my spirit, and he breathed his last, Faith came. Three days and three nights later the grace that bringeth salvation came and thus faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen.

Grace through the faith of Jesus authored eternal salvation. Eph 2:8 + Heb 5:7-9 also Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of the faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Blessed the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Jesus speaking as The Prophet, "For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;" John 5:26 The son of God received the promise of God and because he has received the promise of God, we have been given the Spirit of God, making us heirs not inheritors of the same promise. Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Correct me where I am wrong.